Sport Pilot Talk

N918KT

I've heard from numerous sources that there's rumors of doing away with 3rd class medicals for PPLs. But would the FAA out of nowhere say that Sport Pilots would require 3rd class medicals? Like many people lean towards eliminating 3rd class but what if for no reason the FAA turns the other way and makes it worse or unexpected like requiring Sport Pilots to have 3rd class medicals? I've learned on aviation forums that the FAA Medical Certification makes rules based on politics and not on science or research.

So is it true that the FAA can make unpredictable decisions or the turn for the worse?

Jim Stewart · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 259

It is a ludicrous idea and would devastate the light sport industry. A large number of new SLSA planes have been sold to older pilots who don't want to carry the burden of passing a medical. To think that these people would be grounded and have to sell their planes is insane.

Not gonna happen.

Go study for your knowledge test.

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

The FAA, like most of us, can probably do anything they want. That doesn't mean they will. Most things that happen in life suffer some consequences from one side or the other. Here is a perfect example for you to understand.

If you don't work you don't have the money to do anything.

If you do work you have less time and usually not enough money to do much.

If you work ALOT, you have the money to do anything but the time to do nothing (or very little)

Aviation is about business and the FAA understands that. I highly doubt the 3rd Class for PPL will ever go away but I don't believe they will require a 3rd Class for SP and put 115 LSA companies on the chopping block.

Study, pass your test and then worry about the logistics that will probably never effect you.

N918KT · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:32 am Post subject:

I see. Thanks for the help.

jake · Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 80 Location: minnesota

Arion,

I do not see how eliminating the third class med will have much effect on LSA manufacturers. It likely would help them by getting more pilots flying.
Pilots like to trade up and someone who can afford a 152 now may be in the market for a new LSA in the future.

The few sport pilots who have enough money to buy a new LSA are not going to buy a 20 year old 152 or 172 or the like instead. Would you?

If you have money for a new plane the LSAs are a great value compared to a $300000 skyhawk that was designed in the 50s.

Jake

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: IF

If there is not a waterfall of accidents that are DIRECTLY traceable to the medical condition of the Sport Pilot at the controls, it will never change.

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

jake wrote: Arion,

I do not see how eliminating the third class med will have much effect on LSA manufacturers. It likely would help them by getting more pilots flying.
Pilots like to trade up and someone who can afford a 152 now may be in the market for a new LSA in the future.

The few sport pilots who have enough money to buy a new LSA are not going to buy a 20 year old 152 or 172 or the like instead. Would you?

If you have money for a new plane the LSAs are a great value compared to a $300000 skyhawk that was designed in the 50s.

Jake

It would make a HUGE impact on the LSA industry. I love my plane but lets face facts:

1) The LSAs are far to expensive for what you get
2) LSAs for the most part are tougher to fly and land
3) If you had the chance to fly a faster more proven aircraft for less money wouldn't you do it?

Now be honest with yourself, if they removed the 3rd Class medical would you still fly whatever LSA you fly now?

Like I said before, I love my plane but if you remove the medical I would not fly any LSA. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford any plane I want and I would own a new Lancair.

You are right however about increasing the number of pilots. They would be flying Arrows, Warriors and RVs.

zdc · Guest

jake wrote: Arion,

The few sport pilots who have enough money to buy a new LSA are not going to buy a 20 year old 152 or 172 or the like instead. Would you?

If you have money for a new plane the LSAs are a great value compared to a $300000 skyhawk that was designed in the 50s.

Jake

Yes. Old airplanes are like old houses, if the basic structure is in good shape, you can re-hab and make like new for less than the price of a new LSA. Having an established infrastructure in place [parts, AP's etc] is a tremendous plus for certified acft.

Fifty year old design? Great, the design has been thouroughly field tested, flaws revealed and corrected. I love sport planes, but frankly I think the old Cessna's and Piper's are a lot more rugged and have more utility. New means nothing, especially if you are hassled with constant minor maintenance issues that take forever to resolve.

jake · Guest Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 80 Location: minnesota

ZDC,

Do You have any intention of purchasing a LSA?
I doubt it by the way it sounds. You would not be a lost sale to the LSA Manufacturers because you were never going to buy one no matter what happens to the third class medical anyway.
Thats my point.

Arion,
I just purchased a new LSA and in the last two years of looking I have met alot of other potential buyers. Through this experience I believe very few if any of the buyers who actually have the $100000 to spend on a LSA would choose to spend that same money on a twenty year old 172 instead. They want a new plane.

There are some buyers who have $100000 for a new plane but not too many can afford a new skyhawk muchless something even more expensive like you want. Very few are in your financial position.

A new LSA is a pretty good deal compared to anything else out there. This will not change no matter what happens to the third class medical.

Jake

zdc · Guest

jake wrote: ZDC,

Do You have any intention of purchasing a LSA?
I doubt it by the way it sounds. You would not be a lost sale to the LSA Manufacturers because you were never going to buy one no matter what happens to the third class medical anyway.
Thats my point.

Arion,
I just purchased a new LSA and in the last two years of looking I have met alot of other potential buyers. Through this experience I believe very few if any of the buyers who actually have the $100000 to spend on a LSA would choose to spend that same money on a twenty year old 172 instead. They want a new plane.

There are some buyers who have $100000 for a new plane but not too many can afford a new skyhawk muchless something even more expensive like you want. Very few are in your financial position.

A new LSA is a pretty good deal compared to anything else out there. This will not change no matter what happens to the third class medical.

Jake

Congratulations on your purchase. When you make a major purchase like that, the only opinion that really matters is yours, If you are happy, that is what counts.

If a pilot has a medical issue and wants to own an airplane, he really only has one choice, an LSA. However, people who do not have medical issues and have $130,000 to spend on an airplane and purchase an LSA will most likely suffer buyers remorse later. You just can not compare an LSA to the vararious conventional acft out there at bargain prices.

I was in the market for an LSA a couple of years ago. I got caught up in the idea of having a "new" airplane with a gleaming glass cockpit. But after a lot of research I realized newer is not neccesarrily better, and "glass" in a VFR airplane is essentialy a waste of money and are being placed in these airplanes to make them seem "modern".

jake · Guest Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 80 Location: minnesota

I agree without a medical a pilot only has the LSA choice. But few can afford a new LSA so most just dont fly at all. If the third class medical was removed many pilots would start to fly in much less expensive 152s, 172s etc. That would be good for GA as a whole. There is talk of closing my home airport due to lack of use.

What we started talking about was how much removing the third class would affect LSA sales. My opinion is it would not make much difference and if anything help because people like to trade up. 152 owners will eventually want to move up and LSAs would be a likely next step. As it is now they cant even afford to get involved and very few pilots who buy a new LSA due to not having medical would rather have a 20 year old skyhawk. Even fewer have the money to buy a new GA plane. Arion is the exception not the norm.

I also have to agree many of the LSA components are pretty light for the job. Especially so on the less expensive ones. I purchased a tecnam which I believe to be better built than many but still pretty light. We may be causing more problems than we solve by making these planes so light.

One of the main attractions for me is burning 5GPH of mogas compared to 14GPH of avgas in the 182 flying around by myself. None of the existing GA planes can do this.

Jake

Cub flyer · Guest Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

I think it started out as "what if the FAA required sport pilots to HAVE 3rd class medicals"

Frankly there is no difference in complexity or pilot demands with a higher performance LSA vs a Cessna 172 or similar. Actually the LSA could be more demanding.

Hopefully the FAA does not agree and make some knee jerk reaction if there is an accident.

It's been said many times that a large number of pilots are going LSA based on a medical condition. The old argument of self certification comes up. If you have a condition that keeps you from getting a 3rd class can you legally fly as a SP.

It all seems to be written with the intent of the FAA having a way to hang you if they want after an accident. Depends how far into your background they want to dig.

As a flight instructor I'm really turned off by the intentionally confusing regulations, privelages and certification for students, transitioning pilots, airplane owners and mechanics.

ArionAv8or · Guest Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

Cub flyer wrote: I think it started out as "what if the FAA required sport pilots to HAVE 3rd class medicals"

Frankly there is no difference in complexity or pilot demands with a higher performance LSA vs a Cessna 172 or similar. Actually the LSA could be more demanding.

Hopefully the FAA does not agree and make some knee jerk reaction if there is an accident.

It's been said many times that a large number of pilots are going LSA based on a medical condition. The old argument of self certification comes up. If you have a condition that keeps you from getting a 3rd class can you legally fly as a SP.

It all seems to be written with the intent of the FAA having a way to hang you if they want after an accident. Depends how far into your background they want to dig.

As a flight instructor I'm really turned off by the intentionally confusing regulations, privelages and certification for students, transitioning pilots, airplane owners and mechanics.

You make a great point here and it is one that I have been trying to avoid commenting on for some time. I see many posts from people that say "I know I can't pass a medical so I will just fly SP" THAT IS NOT the intentions of the Sport Pilot Cert. I personally KNOW I can pass the medical, but being a control freak I don't like being told by anyone that I MUST go to the doctor, healthy or not, in order to continue to fly. I don't like doctors and as long as I can walk, talk and breathe I ain't goin! However, if at any time I feel that I am not capable of flying for health reasons I would stop immediately. I get a little concerned at some people's obvious disregard for the regulations and the self certification process.

In answer to the Jake's argument:

Congratulations on your new purchase, I hope you enjoy your aircraft for years to come. Bottom line, LSAs are a fun plane to fly but put it against a RV and it will lose almost every time. When I can get a 2 year old RV, tricked out with full glass that cruises at 175 knots with a proven design for less than I can for a new (or in some cases used) LSA I will pick the RV every single time. I agree that not everyone can afford a Lancair like I want, but if you can afford a new LSA then you can afford a RV. If you have never been up in an RV go for a flight sometime. Here is a little test for you to do and be honest with your results.
Take your LSA up on a windy day with slight turbulence and then do the same with a slightly larger GA aircraft, preferrably the RV so we are making the same comparison. Once completed post back here with your results. I would be VERY VERY surprised if you came back with the LSA flew better and was easier to land in those conditions. I am not saying the 3rd Class issue would kill the LSA market, but I firmly believe it would put a serious whoop a$$ on it's future.

Cub flyer · Guest Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

Given the choice I know I would keep flying even if I knew I had a medical problem and went SP. Solo only or with another pilot. I would not put another person at risk. I lost my medical once years ago because the MD recorded my blood pressure wrong. Had a lot of hoops to jump through for no reason. I was 19 at the time.

The trouble with RV's is they are homebuilts. You need to be VERY careful of what you buy. I've done prebuys on several and found some interesting things. Hopefully factory built has some consistency.

I have flown the RV-4 and RV-9. I liked the 4 other than the cabin room. I hated the 9. Especially the stall characteristics and control placement/forces. It's very possible it was only this particular airplane so don't rule them out. I would really like to try an RV-8 tailwheel sometime.

An example of how out of control some of this is. I have a student who had a DUI 20 years ago. It does not show up on his drivers license so he checked no when getting his medical and the form asked. He did not intentionally try to cover anything up. A few months after soloing he gets a letter emergency revocation of his medical for one year. A call to the number listed and the woman on the other end of the line said he cannot even get dual. He is forbidden to be at the controls of an airplane even with another pilot. Plus he will have to check the box for having a revoked certificate every time he applies or for insurance. Now I can see this for someone who has a commercial license trying to cover up a recent DUI but for a student who has never filled out one of the forms before and the age of this it seems very excessive.

This is why I think everyone wants to just say forget the 3rd class and go SP with no medical problems. It's a hassle and does not really increase safety. Look how many Private pilots need cardiac procedures but as long as they don't have a heart attack the condition does not affect their medical. Get some stints put in and practice a better diet you are in much better shape but you will never get off a special issuance.

Which is another question. If you have a valid special issuance medical can you let it expire and fly SP. Is the special issuance a denial?

zdc · Guest

Cub flyer wrote: Now I can see this for someone who has a commercial license trying to cover up a recent DUI but for a student who has never filled out one of the forms before and the age of this it seems very excessive.

This is why I think everyone wants to just say forget the 3rd class and go SP with no medical problems. It's a hassle and does not really increase safety. Look how many Private pilots need cardiac procedures but as long as they don't have a heart attack the condition does not affect their medical. Get some stints put in and practice a better diet you are in much better shape but you will never get off a special issuance.

Which is another question. If you have a valid special issuance medical can you let it expire and fly SP. Is the special issuance a denial?

It's what happened with your LAST medical application that matters. So, yes you can let your special expire and fly sport. A special is not a denial.

As for the DUI, everyone needs to be careful what they put down. The medical questionaire used to just ask for alchohol related CONVICTIONS. Now the FAA wants to know about any alchohol related ARRESTS, whether you were convivted of the charge or not. The age of the arrest or conviction does not matter.