Sport Pilot Talk

N918KT

Lately, there's have been news going on about the possible removal of the 3rd class medical for private pilots, like last November, there was news of a guy named David Wartofsky wanting to have drivers licenses medicals for PPL aircraft under 6000 lbs and more recently near the end of 2010 that Dr. Brent Blue said on the Avweb podcast about that the FAA is starting to like the idea of removing a 3rd class medical for PPLs, or at least extend the duration of a 3rd class medical.

My question is would you move up from sport pilot to private pilot or go directly for private pilot if the 3rd class medical for PPLs were removed for good? Or would you remain loyal to sport pilot?

For me, that depends. If I don't have enough money for a PPL, or if the curriculum for PPL is too hard for me, then I'll stick with training for sport pilot. If there isn't a sport pilot school close to my home, then I might go for private pilot license. It depends on my situation.

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 256 Location: Albuquerque, NM

In current market conditions, of course I would (actually I am aiming for a checkride at the beginning of February). The reason is that LSAs, cool as they are, continue to march into more and more expensive regions ($125K++), and it's easy to pick up a used C172 or equivalent for much less than that. There is an enormous glut of light airplanes at the market, and it's only going to grow regardless of the state of the economy, because the numbers of pilots shrink faster than airplanes get written off.

I do not have the data anymore, but last time I looked at trends such as the number of pilot certificate registrations and the numbers of accidents, we were looking at anywhere between 750 and 1500 surplus airplanes every year, for decades since about 1975. The numbers are mind-boggling and dwarf the market of LSAs by order of magnitude. Of course the majority of those planes are just hunks of hust, but far from all of them.

Daidalos · Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 137 Location: KHWV

zaitcev wrote: <snip>,,, The reason is that LSAs, cool as they are, continue to march into more and more expensive regions ($125K++), and it's easy to pick up a used C172 or equivalent for much less than that.

Very true, however if the medical went away you wold certainly see a price rise in used aircraft. Even though there would be a better supply the demand will increase. Take the Ercoupe 415c as an example. This is currently an LSA eligible part 23 certified aircraft. Compare the prices of the 415c model with newer Ercoupes and you will see the premium you pay.

zdc · Guest

Daidalos wrote: zaitcev wrote: <snip>,,, The reason is that LSAs, cool as they are, continue to march into more and more expensive regions ($125K++), and it's easy to pick up a used C172 or equivalent for much less than that.

Very true, however if the medical went away you wold certainly see a price rise in used aircraft. Even though there would be a better supply the demand will increase. Take the Ercoupe 415c as an example. This is currently an LSA eligible part 23 certified aircraft. Compare the prices of the 415c model with newer Ercoupes and you will see the premium you pay.

If the medical requirement for Private was eliminated, the Ercoupe price would drop overnight and there may be a slight increase in demand for other certifed acft and a drop in supply since owners who fear losing thier medicals would not put thier plane on the market. Owners of LSA's would see the value of thier planes drop because they have such low utility and people who went for Sport for medical reasons could now shoot for private. Even for primary training it is easier to learn to fly a C172 than a sport plane and you can't exactly take the wife and kids on a trip after you get your Sport ticket. It is an example of how government regulations can make and break an industry. Remove the medical requirement and sales of LSA's drop like a rock.

designrs · Guest Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 144

Anybody want to estimate the likelihood of te Private medical being eliminated?
If it were eliminated how long would it take for the change to occur?

zdc · Guest

designrs wrote: Anybody want to estimate the likelihood of te Private medical being eliminated?
If it were eliminated how long would it take for the change to occur?

Depends on how sharp a knife Congress uses on the FAA budget. The cost of the ATC system is out of control. The new labor contract with the controllers union is generating lots of OT and controllers are locked in to pay raises for 2011/2012[ despite the Presidents announcement of a govt pay freeze]. The FAA will be under budget pressures to find savings to pay for the ATC system. They will either propose dropping medical requirements for private pilots of small aircraft or start charging a fee to process medical applications.

deltafox · Guest Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

I'm sure the 3rd class medical may be an obstacle to some, but I'm not convinced that LSA must depend on that for survival. In the attached link it was not mentioned.

Light Sport Chronicles: Your First LSA
Among 110 models, what led these pilots to buy these birds?

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/pilot-talk/more-pilot-talk/light-sport-chronicles-your-first-lsa.html

dstclair · Guest Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

Got to agree with DeltaFox. I know ~30 LSA owners and only 4 chose the LSA route due to medical concerns. The other reasons for going LSA are (at least) as varied as the article quoted.

I think many people get wrapped around the axle and combine LSA and Sport Pilot. A Sport Pilot requires an LSA but the converse is not true. LSA is a class of aircraft that provides a different experience than Part 23 aircraft.

I do believe that SP as a final certification would be at risk if the 3rd class medical is replaced by a DL for a PP. Yes, SP should be less expensive to attain but I could see SP->PP transition training becoming a normal flight school offering.

saintlfd

I am pursuing SP, at age 56. I would rather get the PP but I know my app for 3rd class medical will get delayed, and possibly denied, by FAA. If that concern were to go away, I would pursue PP by way of the SP. Since aviation is new to me, I want to see if I really enjoy it and make time for it, like I think I will. Of course there is the cost issue--both for the certification and for maintaining currency. So, for me, SP would remain in the picture, at least as a waypoint.

Jim Stewart · Guest Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 259

As many have said before, whatever you do, don't get denied your 3rd class. Be sure the examiner is a) a pilot and b) does the paperwork after you pass.

saintlfd · Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject:

Understood, Jim. For now, SP is my destination. And I am excited about it! Getting close to solo, if weather will ever cooperate.

rsteele · Guest Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

saintlfd wrote: I am pursuing SP, at age 56. I would rather get the PP but I know my app for 3rd class medical will get delayed, and possibly denied, by FAA. If that concern were to go away, I would pursue PP by way of the SP. Since aviation is new to me, I want to see if I really enjoy it and make time for it, like I think I will. Of course there is the cost issue--both for the certification and for maintaining currency. So, for me, SP would remain in the picture, at least as a waypoint.

I'm in about the same position, medical wise. It would cost me thousands of dollars to jump through all the FAA hoops. And while I think I would eventually pass, it's a lot to gamble on.

I'm an SP and I'm glad I did it, but if the Third class medical wasn't an issue, I'd be all over the PP.

It seems to me that instead of doing away with the medical altogether, they might be more likely to make it a paper work exercise with your AME stating it doesn't appear you will drop dead any time soon, and that's it.

ArionAv8or · Guest Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

There is some great discussion here surrounding this issue and several people have made great comments and observations. I personally don't think that dog will hunt and the 3rd Class Medical will remain in place for the PP. Although the pilots would be for it I believe the manufactures of LSA would be against it and lobby for the rules to remain in place. There is no doubt that it will not kill the LSA sales alltogether but I believe it would definitely put a big smack down on it. I for one know that I can pass the medical for 3rd Class or I wouldn't be flying, but since I don't like Drs, think they do too little for the fees they charge and have seen first hand the problems surrounding false diagnosis I refuse to fall victim to them in all but life threatening situations. If I can walk, talk and breathe I aint going. I even have a DNR because I don't want one of the morons cutting off the wrong leg or something, and yes that actually happened where I live. I hope there are no doctors here and I mean no disrespect but jumping through that hoop just isn't one I wish to do. And yes I know there are some wonderful doctors out there and I commend them for the work they do but the jacktards I have seen don't fall into that catagory. Ok ok, enough of my medical rant and back to the issue at hand. If the 3rd Class were dropped I would not fly LSA. I absolutely love my aircraft and would not trade it for any other in the market, but If I had a 3rd Class I would fly it's faster alter ego, the Lancair. They are almost a mirror image of one another but the Lancair is a Lightning on steroids, LOL. The other point about a 172 being easier to fly than a light sport aircraft is exactly correct. Of course they are not as much fun either and give up performance to most LSAs, but the cost difference is a significant factor to most wanting to own an aircraft. Would I love to see it happen, YES. Do I ever think it will happen, NO. Just my .02 cents and I hope I didn't offend any doctors who are reading this on their crackberries while riding around on their golf carts out on the course right now while their underpaid nurses do all the work.

eidolon45 · Guest Joined: 25 Dec 2010 Posts: 56 Location: fairfax, va

Seems to me it would be more prudent for them to push the envelope out a little at a time rather than opening the barn door all the way. How about raising the weight limits for SLSA a bit (maybe to the weight of a Cessna 152) but keep everything else in place? I don't think that would wilt the budding LSA industry - nor would it open the door for someone in really poor health to fly around at night or IFR in a 3000 # building buster. LSA is poised to really take off, but a lot more people would likely jump in if they could get a safe plane priced at a lower entry level.

bshort · Guest Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Ca

I agree with eidolon45. If the weight was pushed up a bit to include the C152 (and the like) then you would probably see SP grow quite a bit larger and faster. The C152 is almost everywhere for rent and easily purchased for 25K or so. A 25K LSA is usually a Challenger or similar 2-stroker.

I've also noticed that rental LSA's are few and far between and usually more than the rental fees of the C152.

It would be great to see this change, but I think the politics of the industry will keep the weight right where it's at for now.