Sport Pilot Talk

N918KT

I'm just wondering and by no means I'm going to learn to fly a Part 103 ultralight anytime soon. But I've been wondering if Basic Flight Instructors (BFIs) still exist if you want to get the optional Part 103 ultralight training. I've heard from some sources on the Internet that BFIs don't exist anymore and if you want to get the optional ultralight training, you have to get it from a CFI or Sport Pilot CFI. Is that true or false?

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

BFI's were allowed to give training in an ultralight trainer. The new sport pilot rules and LSA rules changed that. There are no longer any ultralight trainers. If it has 2 seats it has to have a "N" number. If it has a "N" number you have to have a pilot certificate issued by the FAA to fly it. To give training you have to have to be at least a sport CFI. Tom

N918KT · Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the clarification Tom! I've been wondering on that for now. FYI, the United States Ultralight Association still mentions BFIs on their website. I guess that is where I got the confusion from.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

There is no reason that they couldn't be a BFI, but they can't povide instruction in a 2 place aircraft. Tom

N918KT · Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:56 pm Post subject:

If BFIs couldn't provide flight instruction in a 2-place aircraft, what kind of aircraft can they provide instruction in?

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: On Ground

I guess they could provide an entry level pilot a lot of valuable instruction on a part 103 ultralight, including regulations, 2-stroke engine characteristics, aerodynamics, airport operations, and using a 2-way radio, they could get a new ultralight pilot up and down enough to keep them from getting killed.
Of course ANY ultralight pilot could do this, but if you get a BFI to do it, that implies that he has a little more depth of knowledge.

N918KT · Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject:

So let me get this straight. BFIs can only provide flight instruction in Part 103 ultralights right? Where would the student pilot sit if the Part 103 ultralight has only one seat? Does the student observe the BFI from the ground and when he lands and gets out of the ultralight the BFI says "Okay it's your turn to fly what I've showed you." And then the student flys with the skills the BFI taught him?

bryancobb · Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:04 pm Post subject: Sounds good to me

That's one way! LOL

Keep in mind, there is no REQUIREMENTS for an ultralight pilot. No required maneuvers, no PTS, no altitude deviation max, no checkride,...

The role of a 103 BFI would (hopefully) bet to impart enough knowledge and "ooaching" to the student to keep them from getting killed, until they had enough aeronautical experience to start learning on their own.

Anyone could be this instructor! A BFI however, would probably be a little better than a guy who just learned last week.

eddieki · Joined: 06 Jul 2010 Posts: 7

Me thinks the ultra lite associations are trying to play FCC LOL

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

Kevin, the BFI came about to provide training for ultralight pilots. The FAA allowed 2 seat training aircraft to be used for this training. The 2 seat aircraft were to be used only for training, no personal pleasure flights. There were many 2 seat ultralights being flown for purposes other than flight training. Along came the LSA rules. People were allowed to convert their un-registered ultralights to "N" numbered airplanes. Now there are no legal un-registered 2 seat ultralights. If the aircraft has 2 seats it has to have an "N" number, and you have to have a pilot certificate to fly it. There are still legal single seat part 103 ultralights. Like Bryan said you do not have to have any training. A BFI could give ground training in the operation of the ultralight and guidance on what to expect on the first flight. If the new ultralight pilot wants flight training he will have to find a CFI that can provide him the training that he needs. The BFI's were given the chance to use their ultralight hours to get a sport pilot certificate as well as a sport CFI certificate. Tom

N918KT · Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:45 pm Post subject:

I see. So BFIs can only provide GROUND INSTRUCTION, no flight instruction, right?

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

N918KT wrote: I see. So BFIs can only provide GROUND INSTRUCTION, no flight instruction, right?

Unless the BFI is also a CFI or Sport CFI they can not provide and log flight training in an aircraft.

bryancobb · Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: Part 103

N918KT wrote: I see. So BFIs can only provide GROUND INSTRUCTION, no flight instruction, right?

This is a case of terminology.
"Ground Instruction" is an FAA term for the "BOOK LEARNIN'" that an FAA Certified Ground Instructor gives to a pilot who is seeking an FAA Rating.

"Flight Instruction" is an FAA Term for the Dual In-Flight training given by an FAA Certified Flight Instructor, to a pilot who is seeking an FAA Rating.

"Logging of Flight Time" is an FAA requirement for pilots seeking an FAA Rating.

None of these terms REALLY apply to ultralights because there is NOT an FAA Rating for an ultralight pilot. No written is required so no Ground Instruction is required and there is no amount of "BOOK LEARNIN'" required. No reason to LOG flight flight time beacause a Logbook of Part 103 hours serves absolutely NO PUPOSE except for the pilot to look at.

No amount of "Flight Instruction" is required since a person can jump in a Part 103-Legal aircraft and legally go fly without reading a book or getting ANY help. It would be really DUMB and DANGEROUS, but it is legal.

It is obviously impossible for anyone to let a student sit in their lap and give them DUAL in a single-seat ultralight. If it were possible, I suppose you would call this "Flight Instruction."
The smart person who wants to takeoff in an ultralight will GET HELP. They will read a lot before they go to fly. A knowledgeable person should show them the ropes.

The LOGICAL way for this to happen is for the knowledgeable person (No Qualifications Required) to stand on the ground and coach the pilot through his first few takeoffs and landings to keep him from killing himself.

A BFI, if they still exist, would be the logical choice to be this "COACH." This knowledgeable person is not required, has no required qualifications, and is not overseen by the FAA. Therefore he is neither a ground or flight instructor, per-se', SINCE THE PILOT IS NOT SEEKING AN FAA RATING.

The activity he is engaged in is neither flight or ground instruction! For lack of a better term, just call it "ANTI-CRASH SAFETY COACHING."
That may help avoid the confusion .

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

[quote="bryancobb. None of these terms REALLY apply to ultralights because there is NOT an FAA Rating for an ultralight pilot. No written is required so no Ground Instruction is required and there is no amount of "BOOK LEARNIN'" required. No reason to LOG flight flight time beacause a Logbook of Part 103 hours serves absolutely NO PUPOSE except for the pilot to look at. quote]

Bryan, take a look at CFR 61.52 this ultralight time could be used until January 31, 2012 if all the requirements are met. Tom

bryancobb · Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Part 103

3Dreaming wrote: [quote="bryancobb. None of these terms REALLY apply to ultralights because there is NOT an FAA Rating for an ultralight pilot. No written is required so no Ground Instruction is required and there is no amount of "BOOK LEARNIN'" required. No reason to LOG flight flight time beacause a Logbook of Part 103 hours serves absolutely NO PUPOSE except for the pilot to look at. quote]

Bryan, take a look at CFR 61.52 this ultralight time could be used until January 31, 2012 if all the requirements are met. Tom

WOW!!! I stand corrected! I THOUGHT this deadline was like...DEC 31, 2008 or something? I thought that was a "one-time-chance" that came and went a long time ago! Thanks.