Sport Pilot Talk

Cub flyer · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

Anybody have a Rans S-12?

Is there a difference flying with or without the enclosure. other than wind and temperature?

A local guy wants one in FL but it will need an enclosure installed for PA.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:20 am Post subject:

CF:

I'm betting your best chance to get multiple based-on-experience answers to your Q would be at http://www.ransclan.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

BTW another informative post from you on the 'Q for Paul' thread; thanks for that. I'm afraid that this LSA marketplace just doesn't attract much interest in the underlying physics or fundamentals of flying that the traditional GA venues seemed to. At least, that's my impression. The most significant influence seems to be the short-term profit motive due to, insofar as I can see, pent up demand by folks who have no medical, flight schools with old hardware who want to attract new customers, and pilots of varying stripes who want whiz-bang panels in new airframes. At least at the mid-point to top-end of the market, it certainly isn't being driven by inexpensive pricing and flying affordability.

And so we have some 'user forums' that, in reality, are showcases for the LSA distributors & resellers (e.g. Dan of bydanjohnson has yet to see/fly an LSA he couldn't rave about...), a wide range of small businesses (and fledgling businesses) that are trying to shoehorn open a spot in the marketplace for themselves (which is of course the way of the world), and a flood of manufacturers into the USA market that may/may not have a long-term interest or track record in aviation but do enjoy a 'free enterprise' environment with, so far, little oversight from anyone beyond an informed customer.

I don't mean to paint this unfolding market with too broad a brush, and I'm sure there are good people, reputable businesses and good aircraft folded into this larger mix of entrepreneurs. But boy, does one have to watch where one steps.

Cub flyer · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

Thanks, I'll try that forum to see.

The guy who is buying the S-12 is a classic example of what not to do.

I had never met him before two days ago. He told me his story

He's been out of aviation a while because of medication. Had Cherokees, 172, 182. Wants to get back in. Looked at all the LSA's and decided the S-12 looked like what he wanted. Sent a $5000 deposit to a broker sight unseen. He called EAA and got a chapter number near the airplane. Had someone from the chapter look at it. The airplane is going to be delivered here around new years. Wish he had told us first.

He comes to the airport asking where to put it when it's delivered. Can't understand I have 20 people on a hangar waiting list. Said it has folding wings it's only 8 feet wide. I said but it's 20 feet long!. Then I find out he's never seen one in person or had a ride in anything like that. 582 powered. 2 strokes are fine but I asked when was it overhauled? 45 hours ago. No what year was it overhauled and who did it. ??? How old are the sails ??? It went on and on like that. It was built sometime in the 90's with 280 hours on the airframe.

We talked about the enclosures because I know it made a big difference when we installed doors on the Challenger.

He said the broker said it flies great. I asked if he had ever bought a used car from a dealer. I told him it would be money well spent to get an airline ticket down and fly the airplane first. The dealer is an instructor so he should be able to get a ride.

I asked how it was getting here. Enclosed trailer. I said "great, take the wings off and place in a cradle."
He said "but they fold!"

I told him the story of the Kitfox a couple miles away with a broken fuselage. the owner purchased the airplane. Previous owner transports it and does not install the supports struts correctly from the tail to wing. Wing weight buckles the fuselage between the wings and tail. Leaves it with the buyer saying "oh a couple hundred bucks will fix that" Insurance denied the claim and he's stuck. My quote to fix that airplane came to around $6500.

When I transport a Kitfox I put a sawhorse under the tail spring to raise it level, Bolt on the tail to wing struts tight with nuts, drain all fuel and strap everything down. works fine. This guy ratchet strapped the wings to the trailer while folded.

Anyhow I hope the Rans flies better than the Challenger.

Cub flyer · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

Rans showed up a couple nights ago. Right away we have problems.

The delivery guy showed up at 9pm. I was headed for bed but the Rans owner called and said the airplane was coming so I met the delivery guy. He opened the trailer and the airplane was well packed with no shipping damage. so far so good. Removed the airplane from the trailer after arguing with the shipping guy that Kitfoxes have folding wings. He said they did not and he ships them all the time.

When we got the airplane in the hangar I noticed it had damage to the left landing gear attach area of the fuselage truss. Poor welding and the gear leg appears misaligned. The rest of the airplane appeared ok except for some minor things like no instrument markings, no safety wire on the exhaust bolts a nest in the fwd wing spar tube and sticky throttle linkage. That's the 5 min inspection. There were no logbooks, operating limitations or pink airworthiness slip. The airplane has an N number and external data tag that appear correct.

The new owner said he had received a package UPS and that must have the logs. OK, Bring them up.

Two days later the owner shows up with the paperwork. In there is a very new looking pink airworthiness slip dated for 2000, bill of sale, registration to sign, sales agreement to sign and copy of operating specs dated 2009 on the fax header but text was dated for 2000. The airplane was first flown in 2000. Hmm something is odd here. No logbooks.

I had the owner call the seller. He said he sent the logs in the package. I questioned more why the airworthiness looked so new and the other dates. He said they were reissued.

Asking further he said the original logs were lost and the other paperwork.
I asked how we were to prove it had the 40 hours flown off. He said he could personally vouch for that. FAA would love that one.

Then I asked if he knew of the damage on the left gear. He said it was not repaired there. Asking further he said he had known the airplane since new. Further questioning he knew the airplane had been damaged. He knew it was repaired incorrectly and cracked. He said the RANS gear leg is very strong. I said the gear leg is not my concern. The structure attached to it is.

He said the minor cracking is no problem and he would personally fly the airplane anywhere.

He said he had another airplane if the owner did not like this one. It was nice but also did not have complete logs. That the owner got a heck of a deal on this airplane.

I asked when the last condition inspection was done. He did not really know but guessed april of 09. It was supposed to have flown very recently.

Then he said the condition inspection did not really matter since the wings were removed for transport it would need another condition inspection. It was sold in an unairworthy condition.

Reading the sales agreement I see it also says the airplane is sold in an unairworthy condition.

Very easy way to also get out of hidden problems if you ask me. The buyer really messed up by paying in full for an airplane he had never seen before or even flown one of that type.

So I asked if this was such a good deal was the buyer told the airplane had no logs, incorrectly repaired damage, no way to document the age of the covering, no way to document the engine was replaced with a new one. no way to document total time or whether the 40 hours were flown off and he could get instruction in the airplane during the purchase

Answer is NO!. The owner returned to the room he had been searching his car for paperwork while I was talking to the seller. I gave him the phone and said some rather rude things loud enough for the seller to hear.

Sad part is the seller is a RANS Dealer. The buyer walked right into this one and it is totally the wrong way to buy an airplane. It's not that anything is impossible to repair but that it was deliberately covered up.

When I came back in the buyer was still on the phone. Log books had been magically located by the seller and were being sent. We'll see what shows up.

As he was leaving the bunch from Peru showed up who wanted to buy a Beech Musketeer from a broker in Miami that was bank repo and stuck here. But that's a whole different story of stupidity. What a day.

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

Geez, what are you getting all worked up about?

The guy said he would "personally" vouch for it, what more do you want? It's not like someone's life depends on it or anything. OH WAIT, that's exactly what that means, LOL.

Cub flyer · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

Logs showed up today.

The airplane was originally built with a 912UL in 2000. Engine log starts 2000 and is for a Rotax 912. There is an entry for the inital FAA inspection, No entries other than one saying the 40 hours were flown off in the engine log but no times are given.

2001 with 200 hours on it they installed a new 912UL engine (different serial number) at Lockwood Aviation. After that the engine log ends. Never saw the same engine log with two engine serial numbers

Airframe log starts 2007 saying first log was lost. Airplane was purchased with no engine, 582 installed with 40 hours. Does not say if total time or Since overhaul. Airframe at 435 hours.

Airframe was disassembled for transport at 450 hours 2010. Log entry for that. There were two condition inspections signed off.

I would say the engine change from 4 cyl 4 stroke 912UL to Blue head 2 cylinder 2 stroke Rotax 582 with different prop is a major change. The operating limitations requires the 40 hours flown off again after a major change. We are 15 hours into those 40 but the ops limits lat/lon are for FL.

Called Lockwood. The tech guy said there is no way to tell the age of the ROTAX by the serial number or any external markings. There is a 5 year crank corrosion inspection, Engine needs a teardown to do this. Tried searching under previous owners names but their computers only go back to 2007. There is no way to tell the engine history or where it came from.

The buyer called the seller and he said the previous owner had a trike and almost killed himself in it. So he bought the Rans without engine and installed the engine from the Trike.