Sport Pilot Talk

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

An interesting topic came up during the AOPA conference; this is more applicable to 'regular' aviation, but should be careful it does not spread to the Sport Pilot world.

http://http://www.avweb.com/news/aopa/AOPASummit2010_Training_Needs_Tuneup_203603-1.html

and the audio interview:

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AOPASummit2010_Podcast_AOPAFlightStudentRetentionStudy_JenniferStorm_203619-1.html?kw=RelatedStory

Basically, they're saying that CFIs could have a more far reaching effect on retaining student after training and thus on the number of total pilots. Which, of course is a good thing.

I totally agree: the quality of the average CFI at your typical flight school is pretty awful. I am fairly typical of most recreational pilots in that I started training, stopped, had breaks etc for many years before finally getting down to it and getting my license. Throw in some BFRs and endorsements and I have flown with and known probably a couple of dozen instructors in my life. I would say out of those, the majority were just plain BAD instructors. I am not talking about their flying skills here, but their instructional - and motivational - skills. In the AOPA interview they mention that most CFIs would rather be doing anything else than teaching people to fly and this is totally true. The instant they get offered a different kind of job they are out of there.

The lack of professionalism is addressed in the interview too; this does not mean fancy white shirts, in my opinion. It means actually showing up for a lesson with a lesson plan ( I have never seen an instructor with one) not with "OK, what are we working on today again...?" It means not playing with your fancy cell phone during flights. It means not just sitting there looking out of the window and spouting instructions pulled from rote memory and going through the motions. I could go on and on. Not one instructor ever mentioned such a thing as the Practical Test Standards to me. Nobody ever showed me an actual syllabus of the training required. Nobody ever figured out why I was having trouble with judging my flare height; they simply sat there until I worked it out for myself. Etc etc...

It's a pretty bad state of affairs and I have no doubt we lose many pilots to such indifference and incompetence. The Fundamentals of Instructions exam is widely regarded by CFIs as a pile of erudite nonsense that has no place in the real world - if they actually applied some of the principles in there, they might become better instructors. But they have no real incentive; all they want is to get out and get a "better" job. if I had to do my training all over, I would long and hard for somebody who actually enjoys teaching flight and save myself a lot of frustration.

This is one of the many reasons I am working on becoming a CFI myself; I can see few things more rewarding than making somebody into a pilot and if we had more instructors out there with a better attitude we might reduce that 70% drop out rate a little.

Thank goodness there are some exceptions still out there.

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 256 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Quote: This is one of the many reasons I am working on becoming a CFI myself; I can see few things more rewarding than making somebody into a pilot and if we had more instructors out there with a better attitude we might reduce that 70% drop out rate a little.
I am afraid that after two years of soul-crushing grind of giving primary instruction to blockheads and/or jerks, on a pay that is half of that of a car mechanic, you are going to burn out and either quit, or join the ranks of jagged CFIs that you described so vividly above. But kudos for trying to do the right thing.

P.S. Do you know why old CFIs are so wrinkled? Because they have to say "more right rudder, please" again and again for years.

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

I agree that flight instructors are underpaid to the point of being exploited; you literally have somebody's life in your hands and you get paid about the same as somebody packing bags in a supermarket - this does not inspire dedication to the task at hand, I know. Especially after investing thousands of dollars of your money to get even that far.

But even when you have to teach blockheads and jerks, we can't let that get in the way of doing our best to make them into competent pilots - this is what a good teacher is all about, whether it is flying or any other subject.

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 159 Location: KOJC

Until a better method of getting flight time comes along, most (if not all) career pilots will end up using flight instruction as a method to build time. Like it or not, there will be good and bad flight instructors in that bunch. Not sure there is much than can be done about it.

Daidalos · Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 137 Location: KHWV

I've had my share of experience with many flight instructors over the past 40 years. Most are just building time to get an airline or corporate job. I've run into a few good ones even though they had other career goals.

The best I've had were part time instructors with real jobs or retired. They instructed because they loved it. My recent experience in Light Sport was great. I've had three instructors at different places. Two were retired from their life long careers. An instructor at my current FBO is young (25) I know he only gets a fraction of the hourly fee. But he too has a real job. He works at the same FBO full time as a mechanic.

Finding a good instructor is challenge. It is sad to know that we pay $40 to $50 per hour and the instructor often gets less than half. My best experience was when I owned a plane and used independent instructors, but that is not possible with an FBO.

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

Aerco wrote: I agree that flight instructors are underpaid to the point of being exploited; you literally have somebody's life in your hands and you get paid about the same as somebody packing bags in a supermarket

The instructors at the flight school where I learned from make $30 an hour, what supermarket are you shopping at that pays their bag boys that much. I bet a Gallon of milk and a dozen eggs is outrageous there, LOL.

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 351 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

Yes the industry has created this problem. Pilots trying to get airtime to move on to other jobs. Flying for almost free lowers the "market rate" for good instructors.

Every instructor should be using a training syllabus to let the students know where they are and where they are going. Etc. etc.

Buyer beware. Smart students research and find good instructors. Flight instruction is like any other field where there are god and bad professionals in some percentage (Lawyers, engineers, accountants, cooks, salesman, etc).

One problem is that students want to find the closest instructor and this usually is the first problem. Sometimes you have to drive further or travel somewhere for a concentrated course.

Use, suggest a proven and fool proof method for finding a good flight instructor: go to
http://sport-pilot-training.com/sport-pilot-applicant/sport-pilot-applicant-start/

or go to
http://beasportpilot.com/start-flying/

specifically
http://beasportpilot.com/start-flying/lsa-flight-instructor/

I made these pages to solve this problem. Please pass them on, to fix this problem.

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

[quote="ArionAv8or"] Aerco wrote:
The instructors at the flight school where I learned from make $30 an hour, what supermarket are you shopping at that pays their bag boys that much. I bet a Gallon of milk and a dozen eggs is outrageous there, LOL.

If you get $20 an hour as an instructor around here you're lucky , $12-15$ and you're doing well. Overheard somebody at a checkout at the local Stater Brothers store talking about their $18.00 an hour.

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 351 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

[quote="Aerco"] ArionAv8or wrote: Aerco wrote:
The instructors at the flight school where I learned from make $30 an hour, what supermarket are you shopping at that pays their bag boys that much. I bet a Gallon of milk and a dozen eggs is outrageous there, LOL.

If you get $20 an hour as an instructor around here you're lucky , $12-15$ and you're doing well. Overheard somebody at a checkout at the local Stater Brothers store talking about their $18.00 an hour.

I looked at my map of LSA/sport pilot instructors
http://lsapilot.beasportpilot.com/sport-pilot-locator/
and did not see anything at the Corona airport. These pitiful CFI rates, it must be for Non LSA?

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Paul Hamilton wrote: Yes the industry has created this problem.

Paul, while I agree with you about this in general, part of this problem rests on the hiring practices of traditional schools.

http://www.chesapeakesportpilot.com/flight-training-instructors.asp

That link will take you to the bios of the instructors on mys staff. You'll note that out of the 20 CFIs on my staff, none are time builders. All are there because they love teaching students to fly.

There are a heck of a lot of great, experienced CFIs out there who are turned away from traditional flight schools because they only want to work part time since they are established in other careers or are retired. They want to take time off once in a while to be with family, go on vacation, put in some extra hours at another job. They want a fun working atmosphere and to be treated like professionals even if we can't always pay them as such.

Most flight schools hire the time builders because they can treat them like indentured servants rather than respected professionals. The owner of the first school I worked at hated part-timers and demanded full time workers work 7 days a week, 9 hours a day, no lunch break, and no days off unless it rained. While perhaps a bit extreme, his sentiment is not at all uncommon. This is a problem of the prevailing philosophy of our fellow flight school managers, not just the overall aviation industry.

Helen

Side note: I wouldn't work under those conditions and quit to take over managing CSP. Previous boss had such poor quality staff that customers left and he went bankrupt. I hired the best of the part timers he had chased off and bought all of his furniture.

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 351 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

Helen wrote: Paul Hamilton wrote: Yes the industry has created this problem.

Paul, while I agree with you about this in general, part of this problem rests on the hiring practices of traditional schools.

http://www.chesapeakesportpilot.com/flight-training-instructors.asp

That link will take you to the bios of the instructors on mys staff. You'll note that out of the 20 CFIs on my staff, none are time builders. All are there because they love teaching students to fly.

There are a heck of a lot of great, experienced CFIs out there who are turned away from traditional flight schools because they only want to work part time since they are established in other careers or are retired. They want to take time off once in a while to be with family, go on vacation, put in some extra hours at another job. They want a fun working atmosphere and to be treated like professionals even if we can't always pay them as such.

Most flight schools hire the time builders because they can treat them like indentured servants rather than respected professionals. The owner of the first school I worked at hated part-timers and demanded full time workers work 7 days a week, 9 hours a day, no lunch break, and no days off unless it rained. While perhaps a bit extreme, his sentiment is not at all uncommon. This is a problem of the prevailing philosophy of our fellow flight school managers, not just the overall aviation industry.

Helen

Side note: I wouldn't work under those conditions and quit to take over managing CSP. Previous boss had such poor quality staff that customers left and he went bankrupt. I hired the best of the part timers he had chased off and bought all of his furniture.

Helen,
That is exactly what I ment when I said the "industry has created this problem". Thanks for saying it in a different way and sharing your perspective. I feel schools such as yourself are helping to solve this industry problem. With LSA we can at least try. It is just providing guidence for new students to find the best schools.

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject: Generalizing

Here's my very general, Ross Perot 2 cents worth.

* Student Pilots are mentally indoctrinated to SPENDING $75/Hr + to
be allowed to fly an airplane.
* Most pilots are excited, if not obsessed with going flying, even for $75+.
* Once you get your CFI Certificate, that negative $75 turns into a
positive $25.
* Most CFI's would almost be willing to do it for free because of #2 above.

As long as there are freshly-minted, young CFI's, with almost no experience, who are willing to work long hours, for peanuts, on a quest for that airline job, there will be flight schools and FBO's that will hire them, fire them, and hire more!

If a very experienced CFI who doesn't place airline time-building at the top of her goals, tries to start a PROFESSIONAL MODEL flight school and make a decent living at it, she is butting her head against the wall.
You just cannot charge what it is WORTH or ENOUGH per hour, to make it work out.

I think an average high school math teacher makes about $45,000/yr.
I consider a 35 y/o CFI with 2000 hrs to be about a functional equivalent of the teacher.

$250 per day for the Math Teacher = $31.25/hr for 180 days of work/yr.

An ATP CFI logs about 4 hours/day on average.
At $31.25/hr and 180 days of instruction/yr, like the teacher, the CFI will make $22,500.

Do you THINK for one moment that the 35 y/o professional CFI is going to work for $22,500? NO So... ATP hires the kids and that's about the best the new student pilots, (or we oldtimers getting a flight review) can hope for.

deltafox · Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

Helen, the credentials associated with your instructors are quite impressive. In most professional organizations there is a self governing body to insure minimum standards, quality, ethics are maintained. Who is the governing body for Flight Instructors? (NAFI, SAFE, other?) I would definitely buy instruction from a Master Flight Instructor, but is there another 'credential' a student should look for when shopping for quality instruction? How should I differentiate the good from the bad, especially since most times my search is online looking at a resume.

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

Paul Hamilton wrote:

I looked at my map of LSA/sport pilot instructors
http://lsapilot.beasportpilot.com/sport-pilot-locator/
and did not see anything at the Corona airport. These pitiful CFI rates, it must be for Non LSA?

Yes, this is for "regular" training; we have no Sport Pilot training here at Corona.

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 351 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

deltafox wrote: is there another 'credential' a student should look for when shopping for quality instruction? How should I differentiate the good from the bad, especially since most times my search is online looking at a resume.

Just because the instructor jumps through all the hoops to become a "Master Instructor", does not mean it is the best match for the student, although this is a great starting point and chances are "better" of getting good instruction with a Master Instructor.

Some of the best and most experienced pilots/CFI’s are terrible flight instructors. Flying and teaching are two completely different animals.

Any student should call the instructor on the phone, or see the flight instructor, or take a introductory flight with the flight instructor. Some of the professionals who look great on paper, have awards, etc may not have the “personality mix” that matches the student seeking instruction.

Besides qualifications, awards and such, the student should interview the instructor as a starting point to see how they "like" them.

see
http://sport-pilot-training.com/sport-pilot-applicant/sport-pilot-applicant-start/
and
http://beasportpilot.com/start-flying/lsa-flight-instructor/
for some proven questions to ask.

The student is the "customer" and the flight instructor should try to earn the students business.

This is why I have published the list of questions for the before considering