Sport Pilot Talk

sport flyer45 · Joined: 15 Dec 2008 Posts: 6 Location: Orlando, FL

I am considering building a light sport airplane (all metal) from a kit aircraft manufacturer - would like any feedback from anybody that has built an airplane from a kit. I have pretty fair mechanical abilities, but have never taken on a project of this magnitude. Would like to hear the pro's & con's of building from a kit. Does anyone regret starting a kit project with the prospect of nevering finishing. I like the Vans RV-12 & Rans S-19. Thank you for any comments!

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:28 am Post subject: Fun

The soundness of this decision will depend on your life's circumstances.
Are you retired?
If not do you have time?
Are funds present?

Anyone with a reasonable amount of mechanical ability and common sense can be successful at it. If you are short on time OR bucks...

It can be stressful... on you...on your marriage... etc.

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

The saying goes that if you want to build and airplane, build an airplane, if you want to fly an airplane, buy an airplane. I won't agree 100%, but there is a lot of truth there. Read a lot. Join the local EAA chapter and talk to people and visit their projects to get an idea of what's involved.

Building is a very rewarding activity. But you MUST have the attitude that it will be done when it's done. It can't be rushed - your life depends on doing everything correctly. Be prepared to spend money for extra parts, you will screw some of them up. The cost of the engine catches almost everyone out. A new aircraft engine, ready to fly is going to set you back about $20000. This is in addition to the cost of the kit. Also figure several thousand for avionics, which are required for anything other than drilling holes in the sky around the local airport.

I think the RV 12 and Rans S19 are both good chooses. The RV12 will probably the quickest/easiest to build and has the best support. Other choices for all aluminum are from Zenith and a couple of places that sell Zenith clones. The RV 12 is offered as ELSA or EAB, and I think the engine is included in the kit, so you don't get much choice there.

Finally, if you have the cash, you can probably buy a kit plane already built for less than the price of the parts. (It's the economy.) You won't be able to do your own annual inspection, and you wont get the joy of building, but it will get you flying a lot sooner.

Ron

Jack Tyler

With Sebring's Expo arriving at the end of this month, I thought it might be helpful for some visitors here to resurface this thread, and also to correct and add on to the initial discussion.

First, a couple of quick corrections or 'adjustments':
-- any kit builder can do his/her own annual inspections; all that's required is to take a 16 hr LSA Repairman course, which is taught around the country by the EAA and other approved vendors (see http://www.sportair.org/workshops/Repairman%20%28LSA%29%20Inspection-Airplane.html for more details)
-- E-LSA aircraft, after the AC is issued, can be modified in any way the owner sees fit; it's an 'Experimental', after all. It's only the initial build of the E-LSA that is dictated by the factory's build plans.
-- RANS S-19 is only offered as an E-AB kit, or sold fully built as an S-LSA. The RV-12 can be built as an E-LSA or E-AB aircraft. (If this just sounds like alphabet soup and you're in the LSA market, you might want to beef up your understanding of the significance of those distinctions).
-- WRT the S-19 and RV-12, the cost of a completed kit will be far less than a comparable (which is to say: 'new') S-LSA S-19 or E-LSA RV-12. Both these models have been around long enough now that they are available for sale as 'lightly used' and their prices are well above the kit prices + the cost of tools and paint. Just visit the RANS and VAF websites and you can confirm this.
-- Also related to cost, the RV-12 costs are quite explicit as the kit includes everything except fluids, tools and paint. There's not much mystery there...
-- It is actually very easy to see what's involved in building an RV-12 as there are *many* kit blogs, well illustrated with pics and daily entries, that individual builders have used to document their build. There are also a few build logs for S-19 builders, altho' they are far fewer in number. (Samples: http://www.ransclan.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1350 and http://www.mykitlog.com/BigJohn/ )

Here are a few additional thoughts that could also apply to sportflyer45's original question:
-- not all kits are equal; e.g. those who have helped build S-19's AND RV-12's tell me the RV-12 kit's plans are far more explicit, the kit requires less prior experience, the kit is more complete (so no shopping time is lost), and the 40 years of Vans offering metal low-wing kits shows. (I think the S-19 is the first metal kit RANS has offered).
-- if opting for an S-LSA purchase but you like the idea of being your own mechanic for the annual, the FAA does permit reclassing an S-LSA as an E-LSA after which the Repairman's certificate will permit one to do annual inspections...for any E-LSA or E-AB in the LSA class. Not understood by many, but true.
-- finally, the original post omitted a comment about the mission(s) he wanted his new plane to accomplish. If it includes cross-country flying, as is usually the case, be sure to check useful load figures for both these models as they are significantly different.

Both are very appealing aircraft. And like cheese and chalk, they may appear to be quite similar but IMO seem to be substantially different in a number of respects.

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

Jack Tyler wrote:
-- any kit builder can do his/her own annual inspections; all that's required is to take a 16 hr LSA Repairman course

True, if its an E-LSA. If its one of the other types of experimentals (such as amateur built), the course doesn't give you that privilege.

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

I guess it comes back to whether building an aircraft is one of your goals and what you value your time. A cursory search found an used RV-12 with 190 hrs for $94K. This plane has a lot of extra's beyond the kit with the kit running about $62K. I'd guess painting plus the extra's would put you back $10-15K. Call the total parts around $75K. That leaves $19K for labor which is estimated to be 500-700 hrs. Looks like a bargain to me (depending on condition and build quality): http://geicodevelopment.com/rv_12

Jack Tyler · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:01 am Post subject:

Well...let's not leave that hanging... The E-AB builder doesn't need the course (or anything else) and may simply apply - as the builder - for the certificate. So in this case it's even easier...

Regarding the difference between E-LSA & E-AB maintenance requirements: "The difference comes in who is allowed to perform the annual condition inspection. For amateur-built aircraft, the original primary builder can apply to receive the repairman certificate authorizing him or her to perform the condition inspection. No special training or testing is necessary, but no subsequent owner is eligible for the repairman certificate for an amateur-built aircraft. For E-LSA, the owner can be eligible for the repairman certificate after completing an approved 16-hour course of instruction. The owner doesn’t have to be the builder of the aircraft in order to qualify for the E-LSA repairman certificate. In either case, an airframe and powerplant mechanic may also perform the inspection. "
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-10_darside.asp

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: Why.

Why would anyone contemplate building a kit LSA as an E-LSA?

If the kit is on the FAA 51% list, just build it as an E-AB Experimental and "have your cake-n-eat it too!"

You can fly it without a medical, you can do the annual yourself, and you DON'T have to take any mechanic's courses.

A VALID reason to have an E-LSA, was when FAT single-seat ultralights or 2-seat ultralight type planes were grandfathered in when the Light Sport Rule was implemented.

NOW it doesn't appear to me there would be any reason for any new E-LSA's to be registered???

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

bryancobb wrote: Why would anyone contemplate building a kit LSA as an E-LSA?

If the kit is on the FAA 51% list, just build it as an E-AB Experimental and "have your cake-n-eat it too!"

Not all the "new" planes are on this list, and in fact many of the E-LSA kits would not be eligible for amateur built status.

Quote:
You can fly it without a medical, you can do the annual yourself, and you DON'T have to take any mechanic's courses.

There are people, who suggest that an E-LSA is more attractive to future owners, since future owners can get the repairman certificate for that plane (unlike those in the amateur-built category)

Jack Tyler · Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject:

"Why would anyone contemplate building a kit LSA as an E-LSA?"

As Bob points out, not all E-LSA kit builders have sought FAA review and approval that the kit fits the 51% rule. Of those builders who have sought this, some are still waiting for approval as the FAA had to freeze the review period a while back...altho' I believe it is now underway again. This means the builder has to convince the FSDO or DAR inspector s/he has complied with a 51% rule using the FAA check-off list. Not the end of the world...but also not a slam dunk, as when building an E-LSA that's on the FAA's approved list.

Why else should an E-LSA be preferred? One reason is resale, altho' the actual $$ difference is dependent on the individual buyer and so hard to pin down. An E-LSA is more of a known entity and will come with a very specific set of plans that documents the details of its construction. Those pass along with the aircraft, if the buyer is half-aware. ('The green/white wire goes from the roll servo into DSUB post #25.') That in itself could be worth a price premium. Second, a buyer can fly a specific E-LSA model in one part of the country and be reasonably certain the same model somewhere else will be quite similar., which makes the buyer feel more certain about what s/he wants. Buying an E-AB is quite a different circumstance for the buyer. ('Did you install a half-time O-320 in your RV-4...or was it a rebuilt IO-360...and who did the rebuild?) Third, a pre-buy inspection would be a bit more of a by-the-book process, in that all the doc related to the build would be available. A careful E-AB builder might have similar detail to offer...but when you think about all the exploded illustrations, diagrams and annotated detail of an E-LSA's plans, that's probably not realistic to expect.

Also as Bob stated, an E-LSA buyer (whether it's the kit buyer or buyer #3) has the option to both do any repair on the a/c in question ('It's an Experimental...') and also sign off the annual inspection (after taking the approved one-weekend course). No E-AB kit builder can pass that benefit on to any buyer.

How must - in cash - is all this worth? Impossible to say. Does this make the E-LSA a/c worth more than a comparable E-AB a/c...and perhaps move a given sale along a bit better. Again, it probably depends on the buyer. It sure would be for me...

But zooming the lens out, it's also worth noting that the benefits of building an E-LSA may not be as apparent because, for the a/c class we're talking about, there's only one E-LSA product in the market place so far (if my research to date is accurate) - the RV-12. So every potential buyer has heard the sales pitch, for years now, from many a E-AB LSA kit builder about how great it is to build an E-AB a/c, while there's been far less promotion about the other option. When this is considered, it's pretty remarkable that the E-LSA RV-12 has been a kit for abut 2.5 years and there are already 100+ of them flying as E-LSA's - far more than any E-AB LSA kit. That alone says something about the appeal of an E-LSA.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: One addendum...

A likely Q some might have is: Why are there so few E-LSA kits? IOW if a company like RANS built an S-LSA and had it inspected/approved by the FAA (e.g. their S-19), then why don't they sell the kit as an E-LSA rather than just an E-AB? Here's one answer, offered by a moderator on another forum who works with the Light Sport industry:

"I've worked with several S-LSA manufacturers and the reason most of them shy away from the E-LSA kits is due to the fact that the kit manufacturer's name goes on the Airworthiness Certificate as builder. And that never changes even though the kit builder can modify the aircraft after certification."
Mel Asberry, DAR & A&P/EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor

That motivation of course is of no benefit to the kit builder.

bryancobb · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:40 am Post subject: Time-Proven

The system of Amateur-Built Experimental aircraft, has passed the test of time and is thriving.

The system of Light Sport S-LSA's and E-Lsa's is new and has had many teething pains.

E-AB's continue to be an outstanding value in the used market, when compared to LSA's.

There is a E-AB Zodiac 601HDS on Barnstormers with a Continental engine and IFR equipped for $39,500.

I found a used Aerotek Eurofox S-LSA, (Kitfox Clone?) with a Rotax 912 for $64,300.

I realize this is not an pples-to-apples comparison, but it is typical of the price disparity. The promised "affordable" aircraft never actually showed up.

For a light airplane buyer with money in his pocket, there simply continues to be several options that appear to offer better value and future sale security, than most LSA's.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject:

Bryan:

"I realize this is not an apples-to-apples comparison..."
Boy, that's for sure. None of the a/c models you mention are in the same apple basket.

"...but...the promised "affordable" aircraft never actually showed up."
Very true in the absolute sense, as a S-19 or RV-12 will cost ~$75K to build & paint.

"The system of Amateur-Built Experimental aircraft, has passed the test of time and is thriving."
Well...I'd be more comfortable with the claim that the E-AB option continues. As to which part of it 'thrives', that depends on the class being discussed. One thing that can't be dismissed is that there have been many hundreds of purchases of LSA a/c during each of the past 3 years, with average annual sales numbers of ~600/year of S-LSA's alone during a truly crummy economic period. There are now 100+ LSA models that builders, investors & distributors have thought there was a business case to introduce. So however much the E-AB option appeals to a given person, the LSA numbers themselves point to it being well received and meeting a need that existed when E-AB was all there was. As for it's longer-term 'test of time', we'll just have to wait and see how the LSA market segment - of all types - matures.