Sport Pilot Talk

FastEddieB · Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 207 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

The latest Flying Magazine has a good article on the Carbon Cub SS. What a lust-worthy little plane - though at $185k I think it gets pretty far away from the original intent of the LSA rule: cheaper and easier flying.

In any case, I caught one error, and just composed and sent a Letter to the Editor:

To the editor,

In your article on the Carbon Cub SS [October 2010], you state, "...and perhaps most appealingly, after completing a 16-hour FAA-approved course, you can get your repairman's certificate and maintain your own aircraft".

This perpetuates a common misunderstanding. As an Experimental, anyone can work on and maintain the aircraft - no certificate is required. This in made clear in the-16 hour course you refer to, which I have taken. What the course enables you to do is to perform an Annual Condition Inspection on an Experimental aircraft that you own. In fact, the certificate you receive lists the one aircraft on which you may perform said inspections.

Other than that, great article and that Carbon Cub SS is certainly a fine plane.

Ed Benson
Mineral Bluff, GA

bryancobb · Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: Question Eddie

FastEddieB wrote:

What the course enables you to do is to perform an Annual Condition Inspection on an Experimental aircraft that you own. [/i]

I thought I understood the reg? Maybe not?

Doesn't the Experimental HAVE TO BE a LSA for a class graduate to do the condition inspection?

The owner of ...say...a Lancair could not do his annual Condition Inspection, unless he built it or had an A&P rating...right?

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

FastEddieB wrote: In your article on the Carbon Cub SS [October 2010], you state, "...and perhaps most appealingly, after completing a 16-hour FAA-approved course, you can get your repairman's certificate and maintain your own aircraft".

This perpetuates a common misunderstanding. As an Experimental, anyone can work on and maintain the aircraft - no certificate is required. This in made clear in the-16 hour course you refer to, which I have taken. What the course enables you to do is to perform an Annual Condition Inspection on an Experimental aircraft that you own. In fact, the certificate you receive lists the one aircraft on which you may perform said inspections.

Other than that, great article and that Carbon Cub SS is certainly a fine plane.

Ed Benson
Mineral Bluff, GA[/i]

Correct me if I am wrong Ed but I do not believe that is right. You state that "anyone can work on and maintain an Experimental aircraft" and I do not believe that is the case. A PPL can do some maintenance on Experimental aircraft but a Sport Pilot cannot do anything without attending one of the two courses. The 16 hour course is sufficient for E-LSA and the 120 hour course is required for the S-LSAs. According to CubCrafters website they say the aircraft can be configured as a one or two place S-LSA. Wouldn't that require the 120 hour course for a certified Sport Pilot?

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

bryancobb wrote: FastEddieB wrote:

What the course enables you to do is to perform an Annual Condition Inspection on an Experimental aircraft that you own. [/i]

I thought I understood the reg? Maybe not?

Doesn't the Experimental HAVE TO BE a LSA for a class graduate to do the condition inspection?

The owner of ...say...a Lancair could not do his annual Condition Inspection, unless he built it or had an A&P rating...right?

I believe you are correct Bryan, all of this revolves around the aircraft being a LSA. It also makes a big difference whether the pilot is a PPL or a Sport Pilot. I don't really understand the philosophy behind the difference in pilot certification having the ability to work on and maintain their aircraft since I don't remember the PPL course containing a maintenance section that the Sport Pilot did not.

FastEddieB · Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 207 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Quote: Correct me if I am wrong Ed but I do not believe that is right. You state that "anyone can work on and maintain an Experimental aircraft" and I do not believe that is the case.

I can only go by what I was taught, and tested on, in the course I took.

It was through Sport Aviation Specialties at:

http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/Useful_Information.htm

From that link's FAQ on E-LSA's: "May be maintained or modified by anybody-there are no requirements on who may perform maintenance or modifications on E-LSAs."

FastEddieB · Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 207 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Quote: Doesn't the Experimental HAVE TO BE a LSA for a class graduate to do the condition inspection?

Yes. And I was referring to the Carbon Cub, which may leave the factory as an E-LSA (about 50% do, according to the article).

Quote: The owner of ...say...a Lancair could not do his annual Condition Inspection, unless he built it or had an A&P rating...right?

If you're talking about an Experimental - Amateur Built, that's outside my area. I think only the builder or an A&P can do the annual condition inspections, but I don't really know.

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

Ok, now I am completed confused and my head hurts.

I was always taught that a Sport Pilot could not do maintenance on anything without the course. Then I heard to do maintenance on a S-LSA a Sport Pilot had to have the 120 hour course.

Now I read in the FAR 43.3 (g) "The holder of a Sport Pilot certificate may perform preventitive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport catagory." So which is it?

Can I change my own oil or not?

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

EAB - Experimental Amateur Built. Anybody and work on it. No restrictions at all. But only the ORIGINAL builder (not current owner) or an A&P can to the annual condition inspection. Note that unlike a part 23 plane (most Pipers, Cessnas etc) an A&P IA is not required to sign off on the annual.

E-LSA - much more complicated and not all related to EAB. The three day course that you often see sponsored by EAA chapters is only for your own aircraft, and only if it's E-LSA, not S-LSA.

S-LSA - It takes some serious training to work on those.

There are folks that hang out here that can give a definitive answer on the X-LSA stuff.

ArionAv8or · Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

rsteele wrote: EAB - Experimental Amateur Built. Anybody and work on it. No restrictions at all. But only the ORIGINAL builder (not current owner) or an A&P can to the annual condition inspection. Note that unlike a part 23 plane (most Pipers, Cessnas etc) an A&P IA is not required to sign off on the annual.

E-LSA - much more complicated and not all related to EAB. The three day course that you often see sponsored by EAA chapters is only for your own aircraft, and only if it's E-LSA, not S-LSA.
S-LSA - It takes some serious training to work on those.

There are folks that hang out here that can give a definitive answer on the X-LSA stuff.

That is exactly what I originally thought as well, but the above links show that "anyone" can do maintenance on an E-LSA and I thought you needed the 16 hour course for that if you were a Sport Pilot and not a PPL.

I have never even heard of a X-LSA.

I need an aspirin now!

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

rsteele wrote: EAB - Experimental Amateur Built. Anybody and work on it. No restrictions at all. But only the ORIGINAL builder (not current owner) or an A&P can to the annual condition inspection.

The requirements for any kind of experimental (amateur-built, light sport, etc), are the same. Anyone can do the maintainance. The annual condition inspections can be done by an A&P, or anyone who holds the repairman certificate for that particular plane.

"The original builder" can not do the annuals, unless he also holds the repairman certificate for the amateur-built plane. Being the "original builder" is the prerequisite for getting the repairman certificate.

Quote:
E-LSA - much more complicated and not all related to EAB. The three day course that you often see sponsored by EAA chapters is only for your own aircraft, and only if it's E-LSA, not S-LSA.

Again, anyone can perform the maintenance. No certificate required. If you want to obtain the repairmain certificate to do the annuals, then the owner needs the 16 hour course. A&Ps, and light sport repairmen with a maintenance rating can also do the annuals.

Quote:
S-LSA - It takes some serious training to work on those.

Maintenance can be performed by "whoever the aircraft manufacturer says can do it, in their maintenance manual". Sometimes, minor things can be done by the owner. Other times, they require a light sport repairman/maintenance, or A&P.

Annuals can be done by an A&P, or light sport repairman/maintenance.

bryancobb · Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: Simplifying??? LENGTHY

ArionAv8or,

There are so many variables in determining whether a specific task can be accomplished by a given individual, in a SPECIFIC instance. THIS person needs to know where in the FAR's to go to get the answer in THEIR specific instance.

In General, FAR Part 43.3 and 43.7 is where most answers are.
FAR 65.104 and 65.107 is where the rest are.

I guess this is as simple as it can be boiled down to:

Doing an INSPECTION (I.E. Annual or Condition Inspection) on an aircraft is a HIGH KNOWLEDGE LEVEL task, and has two components:
1) Doing the work that makes up the inspection (FAR 43.3 and Appx D)
2) Signing the logs/Returning it to service after the inspection is done (FAR 43.7)

WORKING ON an aircraft (I.E. Installing a new Aileron Pushrod) is a MODERATE SKILL LEVEL task, and has two components:
1) Doing the work (FAR 43.3)
2) Signing the logs and Returning it to service after the work is done (FAR 43.7)

PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE on an aircraft (I.E. Changing The Engine Oil) is a LOW SKILL LEVEL task, and has two components:
1) Doing the work (FAR 43.3 and Appx A)
2) Signing the logs and Returning it to service after the work is done (FAR 43.7)

Then The FAR’s divide the rules further into whether you own/operate the aircraft, or
The activity is being conducted FOR someone else.

I’m almost 100% sure I am accurate her. Correct me if I’m wrong.

INSPECTION (I.E. Annual or Condition Inspection)
Normal Category (not used commercially)
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P can do the work unsupervised
A&P With an I.A. is required to inspect the work and sign the logs returning the aircraft
to service
Experimental Amateur Built either Light Sport or Not
Any warm body can do the work, unsupervised
An A&P with or without an I.A. can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
The Primary Builder with a Repairman Certificate can sign the logs returning the
aircraft to service
Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating
A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating can do the work
unsupervised
A&P with an I.A. or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Inspection Rating is required to inspect the work and sign the logs
returning the aircraft to service

WORKING ON (I.E. putting on a new aileron pushrod)
Normal Category (not used commercially)
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P can do the work unsupervised
A&P can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Experimental Amateur Built either Light Sport or Not
Any warm body can do the work, unsupervised
Any warm body can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an AI or A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating
A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating can do the work
unsupervised
A&P can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service returning the aircraft to service
Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating can sign the logs returning
The aircraft to service

PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE (I.E. Changing engine oil)
Normal Category (not used commercially)
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P can do the work unsupervised
Owner/Operator (Private Pilot or Higher) Can do the work unsupervised on any aircraft
A&P or Owner/Operator can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Experimental Amateur Built either Light Sport or Not
Any warm body can do the work, unsupervised
Any warm body can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an AI or A&P
Or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating
A&P or can do the work unsupervised
Owner/Operator (Sport Pilot) Can do the work unsupervised
A&P, Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating , or Owner/Operator can sign
the logs returning the aircraft to service returning the aircraft to service

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

bryancobb wrote: ArionAv8or,

I’m almost 100% sure I am accurate her. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Keep in mind, that Part 43 does not apply to experimentals (except for Appendix D, which is referred to in the op limits assigned to the aircraft). Therefore, there is no need for any "A&P" signatures, for maintenance. This is why "anyone" can perform maintenance on experimentals.

Quote:

Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating

Light sport repairmen/maintenance people do not have supervisory privileges, so this can't be done using a repairman.

Quote:
A&P with an I.A. or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Inspection Rating is required to inspect the work and sign the logs
returning the aircraft to service

I.A. is not required for planes in the S-LSA category, or any of the experimental categories.

Quote:
PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE (I.E. Changing engine oil)

Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an AI or A&P

If Experimental, no supervision or signoff is needed. If you're talking about S-LSA, no IA is required, and with S-LSA, the manufacturer dictates who can perform the maintenance.

bryancobb · Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: Corrected Copy Thanks

ArionAv8or,

There are so many variables in determining whether a specific task can be accomplished by a given individual, in a SPECIFIC instance. THIS person needs to know where in the FAR's to go to get the answer in THEIR specific instance.

In General, FAR Part 43.3 and 43.7 is where most answers are.
FAR 65.104 and 65.107 is where the rest is for Normal and Light Sport Categories.
And on Experimentals the REST is included in a Operating Limitations letter that is PART of the Special Airworthiness Certificate you get from the inspector when he issues the Certificate.

I guess this is as simple as it can be boiled down to:

Doing an INSPECTION (I.E. Annual or Condition Inspection) on an aircraft is a HIGH KNOWLEDGE LEVEL task, and has two components:
1) Doing the work that makes up the inspection (FAR 43.3 and Appx D)
2) Signing the logs/Returning it to service after the inspection is done (FAR 43.7)

WORKING ON an aircraft (I.E. Installing a new Aileron Pushrod) is a MODERATE SKILL LEVEL task, and has two components:
1) Doing the work (FAR 43.3)
2) Signing the logs and Returning it to service after the work is done (FAR 43.7)

PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE on an aircraft (I.E. Changing The Engine Oil) is a LOW SKILL LEVEL task, and has two components:
1) Doing the work (FAR 43.3 and Appx A)
2) Signing the logs and Returning it to service after the work is done (FAR 43.7)

Then The FAR’s divide the rules further into whether you own/operate the aircraft, or
The activity is being conducted FOR someone else.

I’m almost 100% sure I am accurate her. Correct me if I’m wrong.

INSPECTION (I.E. Annual or Condition Inspection)
Normal Category (not used commercially)
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P can do the work unsupervised
A&P With an I.A. is required to inspect the work and sign the logs returning the aircraft
to service
Experimental Amateur Built either Light Sport or Not
Any warm body can do the work, unsupervised
An A&P with or without an I.A. can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
The Primary Builder with a Repairman Certificate can sign the logs returning the
aircraft to service
Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating can do the work
unsupervised
A&P with an I.A. or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Inspection Rating is required to inspect the work and sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Further rules on who can inspect a LSA is published in the Manufacturer's Maintenence Manual.

WORKING ON (I.E. putting on a new aileron pushrod)
Normal Category (not used commercially)
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P can do the work unsupervised
A&P can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Experimental Amateur Built either Light Sport or Not
Any warm body can do the work, unsupervised
Any warm body can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an AI or A&P
A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating can do the work unsupervised.
A&P can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating can sign the logs returning The aircraft to service

PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE (I.E. Changing engine oil)
Normal Category (not used commercially)
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P
A&P can do the work unsupervised
Owner/Operator (Private Pilot or Higher) Can do the work unsupervised on any aircraft
A&P or Owner/Operator can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Experimental Amateur Built either Light Sport or Not
Any warm body can do the work, unsupervised
Any warm body can sign the logs returning the aircraft to service
Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an AI or A&P
Or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating
A&P or can do the work unsupervised
Owner/Operator (Sport Pilot) Can do the work unsupervised
A&P, Sport Pilot Repairman with an Maintenance Rating , or Owner/Operator can sign
the logs returning the aircraft to service returning the aircraft to service

bryancobb · Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Simplifying??? LENGTHY

comperini wrote:
Keep in mind, that Part 43 does not apply to experimentals (except for Appendix D, which is referred to in the op limits assigned to the aircraft). Therefore, there is no need for any "A&P" signatures, for maintenance. This is why "anyone" can perform maintenance on experimentals.

Quote:

Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an IA or A&P or Sport Pilot Repairman with a Maintenance Rating

Light sport repairmen/maintenance people do not have supervisory privileges, so this can't be done using a repairman.

YOU ARE 100% CORRECT

Quote:

A&P with an I.A. or Sport Pilot Repairman with an Inspection Rating is required to inspect the work and sign the logs
returning the aircraft to service

I.A. is not required for planes in the S-LSA category, or any of the experimental categories.

Should have said... "An A&P with an I.A. may, or at least a Sport Pilot Repairman with an Inspection Rating is required to inspect the work and sign the logs
returning the aircraft to service
Quote:
PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE (I.E. Changing engine oil)

Light Sport
Any warm body can do the work as long as the work is supervised by an AI or A&P

If Experimental, no supervision or signoff is needed. If you're talking about S-LSA, no IA is required, and with S-LSA, the manufacturer dictates who can perform the maintenance.

I must have pasted some stuff I didn't intend to.
Any of the Preventive Maintenance Items listed in Part 43.7? can be done ON A LSA by 1) An A.I 2) An A&P 3) Anyone the MFG says can do it in the Maintenance Manual 4) A Sport Pilot Repairman with Maintenance Rating or Inspection Rating 5) Owner/Operator

EVERYTHING DONE, EVEN ON AN EXPERIMENTAL NEEDS TO BE ENTERED IN THE LOGS!

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

bryancobb wrote:
Any of the Preventive Maintenance Items listed in Part 43.7? can be done ON A LSA by 1) An A.I 2) An A&P 3) Anyone the MFG says can do it in the Maintenance Manual 4) A Sport Pilot Repairman with Maintenance Rating or Inspection Rating 5) Owner/Operator

When someone says "LSA", it can be confusing. "LSA" as defined in 14 CFR 1.1, is a generic term that simply describes what kinds of aircraft are considered light sport aircraft. It has nothing to do with how the aircraft is certificated. How the aircraft is certificated, determines all the maintenance/inspection requirements.

The above paragraph appears to be talking about aircraft certificated in the Special Light Sport Aircraft (S-LSA) category. If that's the case, its technically not correct to state that "any A&P" can do the work. Even they must consult the maintenance manual too. The most accurate way of stating it would be to say "whatever the aircraft manufacturer says". Normally, manufacturers do allow owners to perform some minor things. The majority of other maintenance/repair items do require a repairman, or A&P. But again, the #1 rule is: Check the aircraft maintenance manual.

The FAA, not the manufacturers, dictates who can perform the required inspections on aircraft (E-LSAs: Repairman/inspection, repairman/maintenance, A&P. S-LSAs: Repairman/maintenance, A&P)

Repairmen with an inspection rating have no privileges on S-LSAs.