Sport Pilot Talk

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 351 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

This is an important topic that needs to be understood. It has been batted about in other areas and there is always confusion so here it is.

If you train with a CFIS (sport pilot CFI), your DUAL training only counts towards a sport pilot certificate/license. It can NOT be used for private. If you want to go on to private pilot, you will need 20 more minimum DUAL hours with CFI who teaches private.

If you train with a CFI (CFI who can train private pilots), your DUAL training can be used for a sport pilot and a private pilot certificate.

Note the key word here is DUAL training.

Lets look at this in a different way and what does count. It would be best to pull out 61.109 (a) as you read this. If someone is trained by a CFIS and gets their sport pilot certificate and they want to go on to private - Solo time is solo time. Solo time does count as long as it meets the additional distance requirements in 61.109, or you can go out and do those cross country flights as a sport pilot solo and you are covered. The undefined 10 hours of "flight time" (40total -20dual -10 solo) can be in any category so your time as a sport pilot counts.

So it is the 20 hours DUAL that is the issue if you want to go on to private pilot. 61.109 has all the details of what these must be.

Not that anybody likes this, including me, but this is the way it is for good or for bad.

zdc · Guest

Paul Hamilton wrote: This is an important topic that needs to be understood. It has been batted about in other areas and there is always confusion so here it is.

If you train with a CFIS (sport pilot CFI), your DUAL training only counts towards a sport pilot certificate/license. It can NOT be used for private. If you want to go on to private pilot, you will need 20 more minimum DUAL hours with CFI who teaches private.

If you train with a CFI (CFI who can train private pilots), your DUAL training can be used for a sport pilot and a private pilot certificate.

Note the key word here is DUAL training.

Lets look at this in a different way and what does count. It would be best to pull out 61.109 (a) as you read this. If someone is trained by a CFIS and gets their sport pilot certificate and they want to go on to private - Solo time is solo time. Solo time does count as long as it meets the additional distance requirements in 61.109, or you can go out and do those cross country flights as a sport pilot solo and you are covered. The undefined 10 hours of "flight time" (40total -20dual -10 solo) can be in any category so your time as a sport pilot counts.

So it is the 20 hours DUAL that is the issue if you want to go on to private pilot. 61.109 has all the details of what these must be.

Not that anybody likes this, including me, but this is the way it is for good or for bad.

What don't you like about the rule? A Sport Pilot who wants to become a subpart K instructor doesn't have to deal with a medical and doesn't need Commercial or Instrument ratings, which can be quite expensive.

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject:

What don't I like about the rule? I will answer the question but this is not really the topic

Simply that the DUAL hours for sport pilot license by a CFI with a sport rating (CFIS) cannot be used for the private certificate.

Fact: Most of the standards for basic flying are exactly the same for sport and private. It was the original intent that you could use the training for sport to count as private. However, during the rule making process, how it was written and how it ended up being interoperated, it ended up as I describe above.

CFIS can teach the basic takeoff, landings, flight, ground reference, etc… the same as private pilot CFI’s. The standards are exactly the same. I know some CFIS who do a better job at the basic flight than CFI and the CFII. Although I do not “like it” that is the way it is. As the phrase I will never forget in my DPE training when I wanted to make sense of the FAA rules “we do not make sense we make policy”.

It is what it is - and it is best we all understand it so there is no confusion or misunderstanding. Please do not turn this into a complaining, bitching or whining session about the rule. If anyone wants to put energy into this for change, join NAFI who is working on it. Some of the justification is listed above.

zdc · Guest

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If a CFI-S could give instruction that counted towards Private, then logicaly a CFI-S should have under regulations the same qualifications as a CFI instructing Private. As it stands now, you can become a subpart K instructor for a lot less money than a subpart H. That doesn't mean the H instructor is any better than the K. Be careful what you ask for.

I think it is pretty much a non issue. Someone transitioning from Sport to Private is most likely to use close to 20 hours of dual anyway.

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject:

zdc wrote: You can't have your cake and eat it too. If a CFI-S could give instruction that counted towards Private, then logicaly a CFI-S should have under regulations the same qualifications as a CFI instructing Private. As it stands now, you can become a subpart K instructor for a lot less money than a subpart H. That doesn't mean the H instructor is any better than the K. Be careful what you ask for..
Based on what you said do not think you are understanding what I said. Please read it again

zdc wrote: I think it is pretty much a non issue. Someone transitioning from Sport to Private is most likely to use close to 20 hours of dual anyway.

A competent sport pilot should not need another 20 hours of training in many situations. In some cases half the time or less. Here is a possible scenario.

A sport pilot has accumulated 500 hours as a sport pilot and is also a sport pilot instructor CFIS per subpart K and has trained 10 students all of which passed their sport pilot checkride. This CFIS really knows how to fly.

He has the airspace endorsement so no training is needed for towered airspace. Pilot does not want to fly at night and decides he does not want to take the night training and will accept the “Night Flying Prohibited” limitation per 61.110 on his private pilot certificate.

The sport pilot has extensive experience flying cross country and does not really need the cross country training. The sport pilot has been practicing instruments with his glass panel and is pretty good at it. The sport pilot can perform all the flight maneuvers well within the standards since he teaches this to sport pilots on a daily basis.

Minimum additional required to go from sport to private is 3 hours cross country, 3 hours instrument and 3 hours in preparation for the checkride. The 3 hours cross country, 3 hours instrument could be combined into the 3 hours in preparation for the checkride so the sport pilot could get by with a minimum additional dual training of only 3 hours extra to met the requirements for a private pilot certificate. For that matter the cross country night could be combined with the cross country.

OK for the sake of argument ignore the scenario above but he does 3, 3, 3 and 1 for a total of 10 hours dual. Half the dual training hours is a far cry from needing the complete 20 hours. That is a bill of $1500 to $2500 which I feel is a relevant issue and it is important to let pilot candidates know this up front so there is no misunderstanding. And yes there will be scenarios where the sport pilot will need the additional 20 hours dual to go from sport to private.

3Dreaming · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject:

The way I see it is a CFI or CFIS are both qualified to teach student pilots. The FAA does not make a distinction between a sport pilot or private pilot student until it is time for cross country training. So if both are qualified to teach student pilots why shouldn't the student training be OK for either rating? I agree that a private pilot should have training from a CFI for night, 3 hours of instrument, advanced radio navigation, and prep for the checkride. The instrument training by the CFIS required for crosscountry should not count for the instrument training required for the private rating.

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject:

3Dreaming wrote: So if both are qualified to teach student pilots why shouldn't the student training be OK for either rating?

Altough it does not make sense and I do not agree with it, it is what the regulations say.

zdc · Guest

3Dreaming wrote: The way I see it is a CFI or CFIS are both qualified to teach student pilots. The FAA does not make a distinction between a sport pilot or private pilot student until it is time for cross country training. So if both are qualified to teach student pilots why shouldn't the student training be OK for either rating? I agree that a private pilot should have training from a CFI for night, 3 hours of instrument, advanced radio navigation, and prep for the checkride. The instrument training by the CFIS required for crosscountry should not count for the instrument training required for the private rating.

Because the FAA created an entirely different category with Sport. The airplane is not certified under the same standards as conventional acft so sport planes are cheaper to build. Same goes for the avionics for sport planes.

To be a sport pilot you need 20 hrs training as opposed to 40 for private, so it is easier and less expensive to become a sport pilot than a private pilot. If a CFI-S can give instruction that counts towards private, than that CFI-S is essentially providing private pilot instruction, something that is not listed as a privelage under sport instructor. The FAA has stated that the purpose of the sport rule was to make it easier to obtain sport certificates, not reduce the qualifications for instructors giving instruction for private pilot.

The driving force behind sport is the medical requirements for private. If the FAA had eliminated the medical requirement for Recreational Pilot when it was created [ Recreational has unlimited x cntry privelages with the proper training and endorsements] then the sport movement wouldn't be what it is today. A Recreational Pilot is about the same as a Sport Pilot except you have a much larger selection of acft to choose from. This is really what is illogical about the regulations, why do you need a medical for Recreational but not for Sport?

If you have no medical issues, it makes absolutely no sense to choose sport over private because you are limiting yourself to an airplane with very little utility. You are not really going to save yourself any money by choosing sport over private. After you get your sport certificate, you are going to keep flying anyway, so the only extra expense will be another 5 hours of instruction. The cost of which is offset by the fact that if you transition from sport to private, you now have to pay for another written test and checkride .

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject:

zdc wrote: You are not really going to save yourself any money by choosing sport over private.

Sorry the industry averages and what I have seen for a sport verses a private is that the sport pilot license is about half the cost of private pilot certificate.

Maverick972 · Guest Joined: 26 May 2010 Posts: 5 Location: Dallas, TX

Paul, you are correct. If you look at the flight standards they are the same, the techniques are the same the..ITS ALL THE SAME. With the exception of flying at night, more instrument training and radio navigation there is not much else.

I think that if you have the sport pilot then a series of endorsements and some additional training to take the private would be the way to go. I have seen many unsafe private pilots who have lots of instruction and I have seen many safe sport pilots with the minimums...and vis versa.

If we want to continue to push more folks out of private aviation then the regs are doing a great job....

zdc · Guest

Paul Hamilton wrote: zdc wrote: You are not really going to save yourself any money by choosing sport over private.

Sorry the industry averages and what I have seen for a sport verses a private is that the sport pilot license is about half the cost of private pilot certificate.

You missed my point. After obtaining a sport certificate, the sport pilot is going to continue to fly [$100 hamburger, etc] so he is paying for the airplane. The only real extra expense for obtaining a private is another 5 hours of flight instruction.

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject:

zdc wrote: Paul Hamilton wrote: zdc wrote: You are not really going to save yourself any money by choosing sport over private.

Sorry the industry averages and what I have seen for a sport verses a private is that the sport pilot license is about half the cost of private pilot certificate.

You missed my point. After obtaining a sport certificate, the sport pilot is going to continue to fly [$100 hamburger, etc] so he is paying for the airplane. The only real extra expense for obtaining a private is another 5 hours of flight instruction.

OK sorry I misunderstood. I think the bottom line here for any applicant wanting to go on to private is to be aware that they will need 20 hours of dual from a CFI (private) to get a private pilot certificate. Unfortunately, the CFIS dual training cannot count (although logically it should).

We are all on the same team here, we want to get the most accurate story out to pilot applicants about the sport to private.

I always quiz people:
Do you want to fly at night?
Do you want to fly above 10,000 feet.
Can you get a FAA medical without any problems? How is your health?
Do you mind studying extra stuff (such as VOR navigation) you will probably never use because of the GPS?
Do you want to be trained using instruments as a reference?
Are you going to buy a LSA or is there a LSA you can rent nearby?

I have turned business away from myself if the private path is best for them.

ArionAv8or · Guest Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

zdc wrote: If you have no medical issues, it makes absolutely no sense to choose sport over private because you are limiting yourself to an airplane with very little utility.

Every person's desire is different, that is why there are so many aircraft to choose from. I am 45 yo with no medical issues and I still chose SP.

In my case just how much use would I get out of the PPL?

I own my business so I work 12 hours a day 6 days a week.
I have NO desire to fly at night.
I have NO desire to fly in the soup.
My wife has NO desire to fly at all, so it's just me in the plane.

I purchased a 2010 Lightning LS-1 that has the following specs:
Climb rate: 1500 fpm
Cruise: 120 knts
Fuel Usage: 5 gph
Cabin Width: 41 inches

W/ Dual GRT EFIS, Garmin SL40, Garmin GTX 330 w/ Traffic TruTrak VSGV Autopilot, etc.

Where are my limitations based on my lifestyle and the cheaper avionics of a LSA Sport Plane?

Compare the specs of my LS-1 against a 150 or 172 and for my needs I will take my LS-1 everytime. Sport Pilot may not be for everyone, but for some it is the perfect fit, regardless of medical concerns.

zdc · Guest

ArionAv8or wrote: zdc wrote: If you have no medical issues, it makes absolutely no sense to choose sport over private because you are limiting yourself to an airplane with very little utility.

Every person's desire is different, that is why there are so many aircraft to choose from. I am 45 yo with no medical issues and I still chose SP.

In my case just how much use would I get out of the PPL?

I own my business so I work 12 hours a day 6 days a week.
I have NO desire to fly at night.
I have NO desire to fly in the soup.
My wife has NO desire to fly at all, so it's just me in the plane.

I purchased a 2010 Lightning LS-1 that has the following specs:

Glad you are happy. If however in the future you have more time and want to take a camping, golf or just a long trip across the country that would require a lot of luggage, you can't do it in a sport plane. If you had opted for a Recreational certificate, you would have had more purchace options to choose from and not just a C172. A Tiger in good condition can be had for less than half of what a sport plane cost. If you save $60,000 on an acft purchase that buys a lot of flying time.
Climb rate: 1500 fpm
Cruise: 120 knts
Fuel Usage: 5 gph
Cabin Width: 41 inches

W/ Dual GRT EFIS, Garmin SL40, Garmin GTX 330 w/ Traffic TruTrak VSGV Autopilot, etc.

Where are my limitations based on my lifestyle and the cheaper avionics of a LSA Sport Plane?

Compare the specs of my LS-1 against a 150 or 172 and for my needs I will take my LS-1 everytime. Sport Pilot may not be for everyone, but for some it is the perfect fit, regardless of medical concerns.

deltafox · Guest Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

What is the difference in cost? Does a CFI-s charge significantly less thean a CFI?