Sport Pilot Talk

tyler0421 · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 7

I'm am looking to pruchase a LSA in the near future and would like some help looking at my options. I have been researching a little bit but not coming up with much for the price range and options I want. I'm looking to find something in the 50k or under price range with a emergency parachute. I am looking at something that I could travel in(with a decent range 400 plus). Also with storage. Am I looking for to much with to little?

SportCubJim · Joined: 28 Jun 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Wayzata MN

You won't find a plane at that price with a parachute.

Consider the fact that many Lsa aircraft have very slow landing speeds and short field landing abilities. You can survive almost any emergency by just landing; even putting into the tree canopy would most likely be a walk away.

If you can look beyond the parachute then you have many options. Champion, Cubs, Ercoupe, and many others could work.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 147 Location: Westminster, CO

I'll second that a parachute is somewhat of a non-essential piece of equipment. Of course there are situations where you might need or want one, but short of a wing falling off or some sort of other mid-air type collision you'll really never want to pull the cord on the parachute. Heck, even this past week a couple walked out of Rocky Mountain National Park after crash-landing into the trees.

As for a plane - $50k is cutting it a bit thin. I recently bought a 1/4 share partnership in a TL StingSport and while the share was certainly less expensive than that, I did shop around to see about whole ownership as well. I found a StingSport for about $75k and they come with the parachutes. They are good LSA's over all (I wouldn't have bought a share if I didn't think so). So you might want to see if you can find something in that range and maybe up your share and see if they'll come down some on there to meet somewhere in the middle? It's certainly not going to be easy to do.

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 159 Location: KOJC

Does it have to be an S-LSA, or are you willing to look at experimentals. If you go that route, I'd imagine you can find something with the BRS system, for that price. Plus you can maintain it yourself

Z06 C5 · Joined: 27 Feb 2010 Posts: 28 Location: Garland, TX

I'm in the same boat. I like flying the new LSA's but there price is a little much. I have been looking for a Eurcoupe, and older airplane. But it is in my price range and people have said very positive things about their flying charistics. I found an instructor in Dallas, who teachs in one of those. I plan to contact him and check it out in the near future.

But, that is down the road a bit. Still need to get my ticket 1st.

There is beautiful Eurcoupe being auctioned at Oskosh this year, but I don't think it meets the LSA specifications........... it is highly polished and is beautiful. The owner really loved that machine, he must have spent thousands of hours polishing that girl.

Good luck with your search

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

There's an Ercoupe in barnstormers for sale out of McKinney for $36K.

http://www.barnstormers.com/Light-Sport,%20Ercoupe%20Classifieds.htm

Haven't seen the plane but know the owner and the A&P who takes care of it. Short drive up from Garland to take a look. I believe the owner got his SP in the plane -- he's now in a group that owns a SportCruiser.

tyler0421 · Joined: 05 Jul 2010 Posts: 7

I don't mind the experimetals but, my problem is I don't have the time nor the skills to build one.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

ibgarrett wrote: I'll second that a parachute is somewhat of a non-essential piece of equipment.

I know this is a controversial area, but I will go farther than that. In my personal opinion, a parachute is an undesirable piece of equipment. I think the accident record will show that, except under highly unusual circumstances, it does more to save money than it does to save lives.

First, since all S-LSA land airplanes must have a stall speed (clean) of 45 kts or less, and all weigh 1320 pounds or less max gross, they have very little kinetic energy to dissipate in an emergency landing. It is almost always safer to glide them to an emergency landing than it is to descend them vertically under a silk canopy.

Second, the deployment mechanism for BRS and other emergency whole-airframe parachutes involves pyrotechnics. They are activated by firing an explosive charge. So, in order to have a whole-airframe parachute, you have to carry a bomb aboard your S-LSA. I'm surprised TSA permits that.

Third, these systems add perhaps 40 to 50 pounds of weight. That can be nearly 10% of the useful load (or as much as 20% of the payload) of an S-LSA. A pretty big penalty for dubious safety.

Finally, the presence of a parachute has been found to induce a false sense of security, encouraging pilots to fly in conditions which they would otherwise find unacceptable, reasoning that they can always pull the chute handle if things go to hell. I wonder how many times pilots have opted to deploy the chute, when they would have been better off to fly the airplane?

Remember that parachutes lower insurance premiums. This means they must be saving insurance companies money. But, in the event of an in-flight failure, I figure the insurance company already owns the airplane -- I'm just borrowing it from them. So, why should I try to save them money? Or save the airplane? I figure the pilot's duty at such times is to minimize injury to self and passengers. If that means sacrificing the airplane, I wouldn't for a minute hesitate to do so.

As stated up front, this is my personal opinion in a controversial area.

Here's hoping that none of us ever has to use his or her parachute -- or superior glider pilot skills!

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 159 Location: KOJC

tyler0421 wrote: I don't mind the experimetals but, my problem is I don't have the time nor the skills to build one.

You can still buy one then. Just do a very careful prebuy on the airplane, and have someone who is familiar with that type of plane look it over. Often times, its cheaper to buy them than it would be to buy the parts and build one.

flyboy2007 · Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 79 Location: wisconsin

I very much agree with drseti

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

Quote: First, since all S-LSA land airplanes must have a stall speed (clean) of 45 kts or less, and all weigh 1320 pounds or less max gross, they have very little kinetic energy to dissipate in an emergency landing.

Could not agree more with the good Dr. If the engine quits, fly the airplane and do an off-airport landing if at all possible. But what happens when there isn't a suitable place to land. There are four folks in Norway that really appreciated having that 'dubious' bit of safety equipment: http://www.brsparachutes.com/files/brsparachutes/files/PR%202010%2006%2003%20BRS%20Aerospace%20Saves%20247%20through%20250%202010%2006%2003.pdf

Now then, I do view a chute as a last resort safety mechanism but it's nice to have. I could envision using it on engine out after gliding close to my landing area if that area turned out to be less than ideal. Essentially, I'd use it as an airbrake.

A chute might weigh 35lbs but it's one of many backups that are worth it -- to me.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

dstclair wrote: If the engine quits, fly the airplane and do an off-airport landing if at all possible. But what happens when there isn't a suitable place to land. There are four folks in Norway that really appreciated having that 'dubious' bit of safety equipment: http://www.brsparachutes.com/files/brsparachutes/files/PR%202010%2006%2003%20BRS%20Aerospace%20Saves%20247%20through%20250%202010%2006%2003.pdf

This is an interesting press release. 250 saves in just under 30 years is an impressive record. Boris Popov is an outstanding engineer, and his design has doubtless saved many lives.

That said, there are a few red flags in this accident report that would concern me. Of course, I know only what's in the BRS press release, so am speaking out of ignorance here. Still, I note phrases like "pilot apparently lost control of the aircraft", "disorientation", "instrument (IMC) conditions", and "severe icing", and have to wonder about whether having a parachute might lull one into a false sense of security. Could it be that the pilot ventured where he or she would not otherwise have gone? It's hard to know whether a parachute actually (indirectly) causes some of the accidents, isn't it?

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

I almost hesitated in posting the link since it is possible that having the chute did create the false sense of security noted above. But if the engine had failed in the same area (as opposed to disorientation in IMC), they likely would have had major injuries landing in the terrain pictured. The chute did save their lives.

I'm sure many of us have flown over terrain that would not be survivable in a forced-landing situation. A chute can increase your odds of walking away.

rickdaniels · Joined: 16 Dec 2009 Posts: 7

never considered using up already limited load in an LSA with a chute but would never say don't if that's you comfort zone. One thing for certain, once you deployed your chute you have damaged your airplane beyond what caused you to pull the trigger in the first place. In most cases an off field landing in an LSA can be made without further damaging the airplane. Even in the Rocky Mountains where I live and fly.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

You guys who are hate'n on the chute are only looking at it from a pilot with an engine failure point of view. drseti, if you are doing a discovery flight and keel over what will happen to the prospective student? A big part of the market with the LSA's are older people who do not wnt to get a medical anymore. Do you think everybody that flies with them is a pilot? What about that small tool left behind by the mechanic that gets jammed in the controls. Now you airplane is locked in a descending left turn at 100kts and nothing you can do about it. A chute might make someone take more chances, but I can see that it would be real nice to have at times. Tom