Sport Pilot Talk

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 147 Location: Westminster, CO

@flyingclay - don't worry, I'm not terribly new (I've been flying for about 2 years now) and I'm incredibly confused.

Tell everyone what. I'm going to start working on my PPL transition from a SP to a PPL here shortly. My CFI for my SP is a CFI all the way up through a Commercial Pilot including Single Engine, Multiengine, and Glider with 4,500 hours total time; 3,200 hours as an instructor. He does not have his medical.

I'll be happy to put this whole thing to the test and see what goes through. I know we've had at least a few folks go through him to get to his PPL and they are all now PP, but just for the sake of testing the argument out I'll know first hand and I'll be happy to share back to the group. :D

zdc · Guest

ibgarrett wrote: @flyingclay - don't worry, I'm not terribly new (I've been flying for about 2 years now) and I'm incredibly confused.

Tell everyone what. I'm going to start working on my PPL transition from a SP to a PPL here shortly. My CFI for my SP is a CFI all the way up through a Commercial Pilot including Single Engine, Multiengine, and Glider with 4,500 hours total time; 3,200 hours as an instructor. He does not have his medical.

I'll be happy to put this whole thing to the test and see what goes through. I know we've had at least a few folks go through him to get to his PPL and they are all now PP, but just for the sake of testing the argument out I'll know first hand and I'll be happy to share back to the group. :D

Here is the problem with that. When you turn in your application for private to a DPE, he will check the certificate number of your instructor in the FAA data base and see that, yes , your instructor is listed as a subpart H instructor and so your hours count. The DPE won't check the medical status of your instructor. The application will then go through the FAA chain and no one will question anything and you get your private certificate. You and your instructor, by presenting the hours of dual taken from this instructor on your application for a private rating, are making a representation that the hours were accumulated and credited in accordance with regulations. Should you then have an accident, and the insurance company [who always look for a way not to pay] poke around and discover that your dual hours of instruction for private were given by an instructor without a medical, will claim your private certificate is invalid, and the FAA will agree with them. Yes, the FAA issued you a certificate, but that was based on what you represented on your application.

These FAA forms are not something you want to screw around with, any misrepresentations can have serious consequences. A better way to test it is to simply put the question to your local DPE or FSDO. The letter from FAA legal posted by Mr Cobb settles the whole issue, believe what it says. It doesn't matter if you instructor had 30,000 hours, was awarded the Flying Cross and piloted the space shuttle, if he doesn't have a medical , he can't flight instruct for private in ANY airplane.

zdc · Guest

ibgarrett wrote: @flyingclay - don't worry, I'm not terribly new (I've been flying for about 2 years now) and I'm incredibly confused.

Tell everyone what. I'm going to start working on my PPL transition from a SP to a PPL here shortly. My CFI for my SP is a CFI all the way up through a Commercial Pilot including Single Engine, Multiengine, and Glider with 4,500 hours total time; 3,200 hours as an instructor. He does not have his medical.

I'll be happy to put this whole thing to the test and see what goes through. I know we've had at least a few folks go through him to get to his PPL and they are all now PP, but just for the sake of testing the argument out I'll know first hand and I'll be happy to share back to the group. :D

If any of these people who got their private from this instructor are your friends, you need to find out if the instructor had a medical when he gave them instruction. If he didn't, if something should happen when they are exercising their privileges of private pilot, they and the instructor could suffer serious legal and financial consequenses. I find it hard to believe that any instructor would give private pilot lessons without a medical.

bryancobb · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: Right Clay!

You hit the nail on the head Clay!

The title of my thread was "CFIS = Impotence."

I am 2 tiny steps from being a Subpart H CFI.

I Let my medical lapse because my blood pressure was slightly elevated. Now I'm on Lisinapril 10mg. I have to check and see if that's on the FAA aproved list and if not, get my Dr. to change me.

Then I have to knock out the written, (totally ready) and go see John Mann for my checkride... OR if FSDO says Mr. Mann can't do the ride, I'll have to go get a FED to ride with me. No biggie. That will save me $400.

I just PREFERRED to let the medical lapse and not pursue the Subpart H route, but I can change my plans, I guess.

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:28 am Post subject:

zdc wrote: ibgarrett wrote: @flyingclay - don't worry, I'm not terribly new (I've been flying for about 2 years now) and I'm incredibly confused.

Tell everyone what. I'm going to start working on my PPL transition from a SP to a PPL here shortly. My CFI for my SP is a CFI all the way up through a Commercial Pilot including Single Engine, Multiengine, and Glider with 4,500 hours total time; 3,200 hours as an instructor. He does not have his medical.

I'll be happy to put this whole thing to the test and see what goes through. I know we've had at least a few folks go through him to get to his PPL and they are all now PP, but just for the sake of testing the argument out I'll know first hand and I'll be happy to share back to the group. :D

If any of these people who got their private from this instructor are your friends, you need to find out if the instructor had a medical when he gave them instruction. If he didn't, if something should happen when they are exercising their privileges of private pilot, they and the instructor could suffer serious legal and financial consequenses. I find it hard to believe that any instructor would give private pilot lessons without a medical.

This is not exactly the same situation but "long ago and far away" after I performed a checkride, they caught a paperwork problem that I sent in for a checkride and said the checkride was “invalid”. This was a mistake on my part for not checking all the details. I had to go back and get the FAA temporary certificate from someone I issued it to about 3 weeks after I performed a checkride.

OUCH. This was embarrassing and cost me $$$ since I made the mistake and had to travel to do the checkride again with all the correct paperwork/qualifications etc…...

This was a lesson learned for me the hard way about making sure all the paperwork and qualifications are correct.

The FAA is not understanding about not having the proper qualifications. It is their neck if there are legal problems.

3Dreaming · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:00 am Post subject:

Actually the debate started as could the instruction given by a sub part "H" instructor be used if the student moves on to the private, and not could the sub part "H" instructor give private instruction without a medical there is a big difference. I agree that that the regs are clear about giving private instruction without a medical when acting as PIC, even though you could take the same student for a ride in the LSA while acting as PIC. So as a sub part "H" instructor without a medical I can give all the training required for a sport pilot rating, and sign the student off for his check ride per 61.429. Now after he passes his check ride I can give him all of the instruction for his private except the night training, and maybe the instrument training because I'm not acting as PIC per 61.23. The question is does the training I provided for the sport rating count for the private rating?

3Dreaming · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:19 am Post subject:

Paul Hamilton wrote: Wow. I am amazed this is being debated that a CFI can teach private pilots, in any airplane without a medical???.

to start - 61.23 A 3 ii is pretty clear. A CFI needs a medical to teach private pilots. Not sure how this could be misunderstood.

Forget 61.429 since this has nothing to do with teaching private pilots it is for sport pilots

61.109 is clear by saying "authorized instructor" for the dual training hours for a private. An instructor is not authorized to teach private unless they have a valid CFI certificate and 3rd class medical.

Any CFI, CFII operating without a 3 rd class medical is a CFIS.

Again, this is clearly defined in 61.23 a 3 reading "Must hold a third class medical certificate, ii "when exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, except for a flight instructor with a glider category or sport pilot rating, ...."

Again, any CFI, CFII operating without a 3 rd class medical is a CFIS and cannot teach private pilots.

Yes I know it does not make sense, and yes it is not what we want, and yes it should be different, but it is what it is. It is the FAA rules, it does not need to make sense or be fail or logical

Simply call the FAA if you do not like my answer - main office 405 954 6400 or Rich Michaels, my POI, at 405 954 6406. They get calls from those who do not like my answers no big deal.

If anyone firmly believes otherwise or there is any question you better call the FAA and get this cleaned up immediately.

Summary: You need a third class medical to be an authorized instructor to teach private pilots or to have the dual training time count towards a private pilot certificate.

A CFI without a medical can teach anything as long as he is not PIC or a required flight crew member. So not having a medical does not make him only a CFIS.

3Dreaming · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:28 am Post subject:

(2) Authorized instructor means—

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under SFAR No. 58, or part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority

I don't see mention of a medical certificate there, or in 61.197.

rsteele · Guest Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

Sorry to stick my head in this forum when I'm hardly a SP, but I thought this was interesting. Just this morning I was listening to the Uncontrolled Airspace podcast, number 201, I think, from Oshkosk. Dan Johnson, the guy that runs LAMA, was asked about CFI-S instruction time counting towards a PPL hours and he claimed, and reiterated, that they did. I was quite surprised given everything I've heard lately. If he can't keep this mess straight, I don't know how your typical student is supposed to. Has there been back pedaling on this issue by the FAA that isn't well publicized?

Ron

ArionAv8or · Guest Joined: 20 Mar 2010 Posts: 271

rsteele wrote: Sorry to stick my head in this forum when I'm hardly a SP, but I thought this was interesting. Just this morning I was listening to the Uncontrolled Airspace podcast, number 201, I think, from Oshkosk. Dan Johnson, the guy that runs LAMA, was asked about CFI-S instruction time counting towards a PPL hours and he claimed, and reiterated, that they did. I was quite surprised given everything I've heard lately. If he can't keep this mess straight, I don't know how your typical student is supposed to. Has there been back pedaling on this issue by the FAA that isn't well publicized?

Ron

I watched a video of Dan Johnson telling people he flew a retractable version of the Lightning before they introduced the LSA model. The only problem with that is the company never produced a retractable version of the aircraft. People make mistakes, no big deal, and although I am no expert on this subject I believe everything I have seen and heard so far indicates that a CFIS' training WILL NOT count towards the PPL. I have heard this from the beginning so I don't think there have been any back pedaling. That is one of the reasons I chose the CFI I did, just in case I chose to pursue the PPL in the future. In the end I am completely happy and satisfied with the Sport Pilot ticket I have.

bryancobb · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: Podcast

I just listened to the portion of the podcast that you referred to.

I regret this, but the FAA Legal Department Letter trumps the podcast information unless something from the FAA comes out in writing to the contrary.

bryancobb

Paul Hamilton wrote: This is not exactly the same situation but "long ago and far away" after I performed a checkride, they caught a paperwork problem that I sent in for a checkride and said the checkride was “invalid”. This was a mistake on my part for not checking all the details. I had to go back and get the FAA temporary certificate from someone I issued it to about 3 weeks after I performed a checkride.

OUCH. This was embarrassing and cost me $$$ since I made the mistake and had to travel to do the checkride again with all the correct paperwork/qualifications etc…...

This was a lesson learned for me the hard way about making sure all the paperwork and qualifications are correct.

The FAA is not understanding about not having the proper qualifications. It is their neck if there are legal problems.

Paul,
You have emphasized that checkride is not an "All or Nothing" endeavor.
If your applicant passes 90% of the test, but flunks on a mandatory pass item, you retest him on only the part he flunked, right?

Well if you are the DPE, and pass 90% of your paperwork submission tasks, but flunk because you made errors on 10%, can't you just fix the 10%? I don't think the FAA says anywhere that the entire checkride is null!

Ben Methvin made submission errors when he first started giving rides too because there was a lot of confusion. The letters I saw to him from OKCity never said any of the practicals he gave were "invalid." They just coached him on how to fix the paperwork errors.

Paul Hamilton

bryancobb wrote: Paul Hamilton wrote: This is not exactly the same situation but "long ago and far away" after I performed a checkride, they caught a paperwork problem that I sent in for a checkride and said the checkride was “invalid”. This was a mistake on my part for not checking all the details. I had to go back and get the FAA temporary certificate from someone I issued it to about 3 weeks after I performed a checkride.

OUCH. This was embarrassing and cost me $$$ since I made the mistake and had to travel to do the checkride again with all the correct paperwork/qualifications etc…...

This was a lesson learned for me the hard way about making sure all the paperwork and qualifications are correct.

The FAA is not understanding about not having the proper qualifications. It is their neck if there are legal problems.

Paul,
You have emphasized that checkride is not an "All or Nothing" endeavor.
If your applicant passes 90% of the test, but flunks on a mandatory pass item, you retest him on only the part he flunked, right?

Well if you are the DPE, and pass 90% of your paperwork submission tasks, but flunk because you made errors on 10%, can't you just fix the 10%? I don't think the FAA says anywhere that the entire checkride is null!

Ben Methvin made submission errors when he first started giving rides too because there was a lot of confusion. The letters I saw to him from OKCity never said any of the practicals he gave were "invalid." They just coached him on how to fix the paperwork errors.

Bryan,
Somehow, you completly missed the point.

My example has nothing to do with passing a checkride. My point is that if someone gets through the system and it turns out they are not qualified for a SP/CFIS/PP, the instructor is not qualified, the examiner is not qualified, than the checkride is simply not valid.

Maybe think of it this way. You can not be partly, 50%, 90%, or mostly pregnet. You are or you are not.

To get to the point, if a private pilot applicent is recomended by a CFI that is not qualified, the checkride is invalid. How could this be 90% OK or fixed with paperwork. There is no partly qualified, 90% qualified. Etc. It is or it is not

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject:

3Dreaming wrote:
A CFI without a medical can teach anything as long as he is not PIC or a required flight crew member. So not having a medical does not make him only a CFIS.

True, no question about this statement. I should have been more clear on this. But we are talking about a student pilot being trained for a sport pilot and being able to use his time towards a private.

So, how could a CFI who is not pilot in command teach a student who is not pilot in command? Someone in the aircraft has to be pilot in command.

Paul Hamilton · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject:

rsteele wrote: Sorry to stick my head in this forum when I'm hardly a SP, but I thought this was interesting. Just this morning I was listening to the Uncontrolled Airspace podcast, number 201, I think, from Oshkosk. Dan Johnson, the guy that runs LAMA, was asked about CFI-S instruction time counting towards a PPL hours and he claimed, and reiterated, that they did. I was quite surprised given everything I've heard lately. If he can't keep this mess straight, I don't know how your typical student is supposed to. Has there been back pedaling on this issue by the FAA that isn't well publicized?

Ron

Just because Dan Johnson said this, it does not make it so for all. If Dan said this he made a simple error, probably taken out of context. I just called Dan and left a message to make sure this is cleaned up.

In fact EAA was telling people at one time that all sport pilot time counted towards private until the FAA came down on them.

Again, this is spelled out clearly in the letter
http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArticles/FAA_SP_onesheet.pdf