Sport Pilot Talk

archie · Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Birmingham, AL

Hi all,

I have been casually looking at LSAs and wanted to compare thoughts with other folks. My "mission profile" is to have something with reasonable costs to be used mainly for fun... tooling around plus occasional cross-country trips.

I used to own part interest in a Maule MXT-180A and enjoyed it very much. I liked the short field performance (=> safety), visibility, straightforward design, and basic all-around utility of it.

The LSA that looks most interesting to me right now after not a whole lot of research is the Remos. I'm curious what others think.

It seems to be well designed and have good overall performance. I'm particularly curious why the Flight Design CT planes are so much more popular than the Remos planes, when the Remos seems equally good if not better.

What do other people think?

-Archie

pilotjohn · Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 27 Location: New Jersey

I should be demoing the Remos GX on the 4th. I'm curious how it will compare to the CTLS as well. I'll try to post some impressions.

rfane · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 214 Location: Sunnyvale, CA

archie wrote: I'm particularly curious why the Flight Design CT planes are so much more popular than the Remos planes, when the Remos seems equally good if not better.

Flight Design was earlier to market, and had aircraft available for people to see and fly. I was originally interested in the Remos as well, but I would of had to go to Texas if I recall, to get a look at one. Same for Jabiru, I would of had to go to Tennesee. FD came to my airport and gave me a demo ride.

There were a few issues with the Remos that I didn't care for also. Fuel tank is in the fuselage. This takes up baggage space, and I prefer to have fuel in the wings. The wings were fabric I believe, and changed to carbon fibre with the GX update. Remos had also only produced about 200 aircraft, versus 700 for Flight Design, at the time I made my decision.

Roger · Joined: 22 Jun 2006 Posts: 100

One thing that concerns me about all the LSA companies is their ability to hang on for the long haul.

Flight Design has been around for a good period of time. Franky I know little about Remos other then they have spent A GREAT DEAL money on advertising. It's obviously helped as their recognition and sales have improved - BUT do they have the bucks left to supply parts, hire reps, etc., etc. That would be one of my concerns and "check outs".

Roger H

slsaowner · Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 80 Location: WI

Remos got off to a bad start in this country. Rob Rollison was the original importer/dealer (I flew in his demo airplane back in 2005), and then, all of a sudden, Remos disappeared. and it took quite awhile for them to come back again. I liked flying the G-3, but there were a couple of turn-offs (i.e., the already mentioned fuel tank location and the fabric wings). Compared to the Tecnam I eventually bought, I also felt the G-3 lacked sufficient panel space for avionics (I'm based at a Class C airport, and don't feel comfortable without 2 comm radios). The thing I remember most about flying the G-3 was how slippery it was - the demo pilot had to keep yelling at me to keep the ASI out of the yellow on descent!
Our "local" (i.e. 100 miles north of here) Remos dealer has been unresponsive to my e-mail inquiries about how they handle servicing Rotax engines. I presume they're still in the business of selling and servicing Remos airplanes because they're still listed as a dealer on the Remos Web site. I did visit them at one time and they were kind enough to pull the cowling off on of their rental G-3s and let me take a peek "under the hood". On the day I visited, their demo G-3 had just blown a tire while taxiing in to the ramp, and they told me the standard tires were a very troublesome - they kept blowing them out all the time! From the point of view of us northerners, the Remos has one really great feature - a cockpit-adjustable "cowl flap" over the oil cooler to help regulate oil temp. Even with tape over the oil cooler, my Rotax hardly ever gets in the green in the winter.

Frontier509 · Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1

Hello Archie!

The best thing to do at this point would to actually fly one.
In my opinion Remos is a superb aircraft and is built in germany to the highest standards. It's an all composite aircraft with outstanding flying qualities.
I learned to fly in a Remos G3.

archie · Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Birmingham, AL

Well I happened to be vacationing near a Remos dealer the other day so I arranged to take a test flight in a GX.

Overall, I liked it a lot. I'm not a test pilot, my experience is limited (the only other aircraft I have to compare it with are a C-152, C-172, and Maule 180), and we only took a short flight, but I did fly it some.

Flying-wise, it feels pretty sporty. You can definitely notice the performance in terms of climb rate. We took off into a 12-15 knot headwind and it was like an elevator. It flys like a C-152 but "better" in all respects, i.e., more responsive (which I attribute to the new wing), and a lot less, well, pigish. I'm used landing planes with light wing loading like the Maule (which can require more attention on landing because you are basically trying to land a butterfly), so it felt right at home. The day was windy and gusty but the ride was smoother than I expected (also probably due to the wing). I have no complaints. Seems like there's plenty of fun there.

The panel was the top-line glass version, almost comical overkill for such a simple aircraft (but who's complaining?). The engine monitor on the lower Dynon unit is truly impressive. Those Dynon units are nice... and it's quite ironic that you can get them on a Remos but not on a "real" airplane (because they're not certified).

As far as the non-flying aspects, it was comfortable and the visibility is very good. My only real complaint is the baggage area. I don't mind it being behind the seat (which you have to remove to access it) but it has a rather challenging shape... very high aspect ratio. They claim you can fit golf clubs in there, which I believe, but that also means that whatever you want to take with you has to be compressed into the shape of a golf bag. Not sure I could do that, knowing me (and my wife :-). Quite a change from the Maule, which is like a barn (with barn doors) by comparison (of course, the Maule is a 4 seater). I wonder if they have enlarged the baggage area at all in the new version?

This dealer also showed me a towable trailer they had configured with a winch, restraining straps, etc. Pretty neat. Folding wings, tiny fuel flow, autogas... you can definitely save money flying this plane.

I think it would be an ideal plane to get if you wanted to lease back to a flight school. The airframe, while very lightweight, seems very durable... carbon fiber is pretty hard to dent.

It remains high on my list for now... :-)

EppyGA · Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 48

archie wrote: Well I happened to be vacationing near a Remos dealer the other day so I arranged to take a test flight in a GX.

Overall, I liked it a lot. I'm not a test pilot, my experience is limited (the only other aircraft I have to compare it with are a C-152, C-172, and Maule 180), and we only took a short flight, but I did fly it some.

Flying-wise, it feels pretty sporty. You can definitely notice the performance in terms of climb rate. We took off into a 12-15 knot headwind and it was like an elevator. It flys like a C-152 but "better" in all respects, i.e., more responsive (which I attribute to the new wing), and a lot less, well, pigish. I'm used landing planes with light wing loading like the Maule (which can require more attention on landing because you are basically trying to land a butterfly), so it felt right at home. The day was windy and gusty but the ride was smoother than I expected (also probably due to the wing). I have no complaints. Seems like there's plenty of fun there.

The panel was the top-line glass version, almost comical overkill for such a simple aircraft (but who's complaining?). The engine monitor on the lower Dynon unit is truly impressive. Those Dynon units are nice... and it's quite ironic that you can get them on a Remos but not on a "real" airplane (because they're not certified).

As far as the non-flying aspects, it was comfortable and the visibility is very good. My only real complaint is the baggage area. I don't mind it being behind the seat (which you have to remove to access it) but it has a rather challenging shape... very high aspect ratio. They claim you can fit golf clubs in there, which I believe, but that also means that whatever you want to take with you has to be compressed into the shape of a golf bag. Not sure I could do that, knowing me (and my wife :-). Quite a change from the Maule, which is like a barn (with barn doors) by comparison (of course, the Maule is a 4 seater). I wonder if they have enlarged the baggage area at all in the new version?

This dealer also showed me a towable trailer they had configured with a winch, restraining straps, etc. Pretty neat. Folding wings, tiny fuel flow, autogas... you can definitely save money flying this plane.

I think it would be an ideal plane to get if you wanted to lease back to a flight school. The airframe, while very lightweight, seems very durable... carbon fiber is pretty hard to dent.

It remains high on my list for now... :-)

You mind saying what dealer?

Randy

archie · Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Birmingham, AL

EppyGA wrote: You mind saying what dealer?
Sure. Bayside Aviation in Mobile, AL. They're listed on the Remos web site contacts page.

They were very friendly and knowledgeable.

sethdallob · Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Cedarpines Park CA

Reading the original post, if you are looking for something that's cheap but still a "real plane", I can heartily recommend the Eurofox - it's about half the cost of the Remos or CT, has plenty of room in the cockpit, has all the right options for the sport pilot, has great support, and flies great. I don't have any points of comparison, but I can't imagine that any other plane with the same engine could be worth the price difference.

SkySteve · Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject:

sethdallob,
I drive a Kitfox. What is the gross wt and empty weight of your Eurofox?

tech10002 · Joined: 12 Jan 2009 Posts: 37 Location: Lexington, Ky

I was just recently looking at the Eurofox. It actually has a pretty good useful load: 591 pounds. It's max gross is only 1235, though, and the Vno is a very low 110 MPH. That says to me that the structure isn't quite as strong as some of the other offerings since Vno is usually related to stress in the wings and the max gross is less than 1320. Decently equipped, the Euro is around 85 grand, so the price gets less appealing then. My gf and I are trying to find a way to afford an LSA, and the price of the Euro is definitely better than the rest, but we're leaning more towards a used Sportstar or a CT. I really love that Remos GX, though. Maybe we'll win the lottery. LOL

flyboy · Joined: 25 Aug 2010 Posts: 6 Location: Central Florida

We have a Remos GX with just over 400 hours and though we like many things about it, the Remos support staff have been less than responsive to warranty issues and have made ownership very unpleasant. We have two PiperSports and a Cessna and have had none of the issues exerienced with the Remos. The wing design and aerodynamics of the aircraft are okay, but more than 1 have experienced sever vibration frequencies resulting in malfunctioning avionics and expensive downtimes. So, we are waiting for Remos to make some type of move to warranty their product until then, I have to say that we have a Piper with 1295 hours and it runs and looks like new... no problems.

FLA-CFI · Joined: 27 Oct 2008 Posts: 45

flyboy wrote: We have a Remos GX with just over 400 hours and though we like many things about it, the Remos support staff have been less than responsive to warranty issues and have made ownership very unpleasant. We have two PiperSports and a Cessna and have had none of the issues exerienced with the Remos. The wing design and aerodynamics of the aircraft are okay, but more than 1 have experienced sever vibration frequencies resulting in malfunctioning avionics and expensive downtimes. So, we are waiting for Remos to make some type of move to warranty their product until then, I have to say that we have a Piper with 1295 hours and it runs and looks like new... no problems.

How do you have a Piper with 1295 hours? Didn't they just start deliveries? We have serial number 3 and only about 200 hours on it and it flys a few hours a day. I'm assuming you mean a Sport Cruiser?

EppyGA · Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 48

FLA-CFI wrote: flyboy wrote: We have a Remos GX with just over 400 hours and though we like many things about it, the Remos support staff have been less than responsive to warranty issues and have made ownership very unpleasant. We have two PiperSports and a Cessna and have had none of the issues exerienced with the Remos. The wing design and aerodynamics of the aircraft are okay, but more than 1 have experienced sever vibration frequencies resulting in malfunctioning avionics and expensive downtimes. So, we are waiting for Remos to make some type of move to warranty their product until then, I have to say that we have a Piper with 1295 hours and it runs and looks like new... no problems.

How do you have a Piper with 1295 hours? Didn't they just start deliveries? We have serial number 3 and only about 200 hours on it and it flys a few hours a day. I'm assuming you mean a Sport Cruiser?

Probably what they mean. I've noticed that people selling older Sportcruisers call them Piper Sorts. Guess they figure that helps and no one will figure it out. :)