<![CDATA[Sport Pilot Talk]]> http://sportpilottalk.com 2018-02-24T00:39:13-05:00 Smartfeed Extension for phpBB 3.1 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-01-25T00:51:36-05:00 2018-01-25T00:51:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49274#p49274 , great visibility, easier to land than a Cessna 172 ,etc... The real challenge was the air-to-mission...too much fun! Even the 9G turns.
Fast forward to this past August and the Sling just felt like, well, a little fighter...superb handling, great visibility, AND better fuel economy (the F-15C burned 333 gallons per MINUTE at sea level in full afterburner).
So, here's a question for you (and the corporate knowledge base here): I would guess the Sling would do a nice aileron roll. If I build it 51% EAB...can I, as the "builder", authorize the Sling to be capable of, say, 1G barrel rolls or aileron rolls? I don't care about intense aerobatics or G's...but it would be nice to just go upside-down "legally" now and then.
Jean at the The Airplane Factory explained that the aircraft is capable of some limited acro, but the legal liability is not worth it to the company to state the capability.
Thoughts?
Cam]]>
, great visibility, easier to land than a Cessna 172 ,etc... The real challenge was the air-to-mission...too much fun! Even the 9G turns.
Fast forward to this past August and the Sling just felt like, well, a little fighter...superb handling, great visibility, AND better fuel economy (the F-15C burned 333 gallons per MINUTE at sea level in full afterburner).
So, here's a question for you (and the corporate knowledge base here): I would guess the Sling would do a nice aileron roll. If I build it 51% EAB...can I, as the "builder", authorize the Sling to be capable of, say, 1G barrel rolls or aileron rolls? I don't care about intense aerobatics or G's...but it would be nice to just go upside-down "legally" now and then.
Jean at the The Airplane Factory explained that the aircraft is capable of some limited acro, but the legal liability is not worth it to the company to state the capability.
Thoughts?
Cam]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T07:33:38-05:00 2018-01-25T07:33:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49276#p49276 maybe...

Actually, the place to post that question might be the Van's Air Force forums. Different animal, but similar situation - many an E-AB RV has been used for aerobatics. Just remember that ASTM standards (to which I believe the Sling is built) are only +4/-2 G.]]>
maybe...

Actually, the place to post that question might be the Van's Air Force forums. Different animal, but similar situation - many an E-AB RV has been used for aerobatics. Just remember that ASTM standards (to which I believe the Sling is built) are only +4/-2 G.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-25T09:09:25-05:00 2018-01-25T09:09:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49288#p49288
I live in Haines City, work in Orlando, so I go past Celebration twice a day. (Lately the traffic is making that passage a crawl.) I'm flying a rented Tecnam Echo from First Landings in Apopka.

Are you headed to the Sport Expo in Sebring this week?]]>

I live in Haines City, work in Orlando, so I go past Celebration twice a day. (Lately the traffic is making that passage a crawl.) I'm flying a rented Tecnam Echo from First Landings in Apopka.

Are you headed to the Sport Expo in Sebring this week?]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-25T10:13:44-05:00 2018-01-25T10:13:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49292#p49292
If you want to do some basic acro along the way I would be looking at something with Lycoming power and flying under BasicMed.]]>

If you want to do some basic acro along the way I would be looking at something with Lycoming power and flying under BasicMed.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-01-25T13:55:57-05:00 2018-01-25T13:55:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49295#p49295
Hey 1/2, yes…KISM is closest for me. My son did all of his initial flying at First Landings in Remos and Cessna 150. Adam and I flew the mighty J3 Cub a few years back. XO4 is just too far for me to drive. What is your drive time to Apopka? Any options to rent LSA at KISM? I am hoping to go to the Expo on Saturday with my family. I always hit Sun N Fun, but, I have never been to the Sebring Expo. Sorry about the I-4 traffic (civil engineering at its finest). We avoid I-4 like the plague.

Hi 3D, thanks for the Rotax tips. 1-G would be all that I need. No desire for outside loops! The mission is fun. Love low and slow. I do want some cross country capability. Bahamas?

Thanks all.]]>

Hey 1/2, yes…KISM is closest for me. My son did all of his initial flying at First Landings in Remos and Cessna 150. Adam and I flew the mighty J3 Cub a few years back. XO4 is just too far for me to drive. What is your drive time to Apopka? Any options to rent LSA at KISM? I am hoping to go to the Expo on Saturday with my family. I always hit Sun N Fun, but, I have never been to the Sebring Expo. Sorry about the I-4 traffic (civil engineering at its finest). We avoid I-4 like the plague.

Hi 3D, thanks for the Rotax tips. 1-G would be all that I need. No desire for outside loops! The mission is fun. Love low and slow. I do want some cross country capability. Bahamas?

Thanks all.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-25T15:21:45-05:00 2018-01-25T15:21:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49302#p49302
Where's your son flying now? I just got mine out of the house a few weeks ago. He started a new gig doing IT work for Apex Systems, and they're sending him to different military bases to do upgrades. He's in Albany, GA at the moment.

If you're at Sebring on Sat, give me a ring and maybe we can connect. I'll PM you my cell. I have a reservation for a ride in the Ford Trimotor with my wife, so we'll be down there for sure.]]>

Where's your son flying now? I just got mine out of the house a few weeks ago. He started a new gig doing IT work for Apex Systems, and they're sending him to different military bases to do upgrades. He's in Albany, GA at the moment.

If you're at Sebring on Sat, give me a ring and maybe we can connect. I'll PM you my cell. I have a reservation for a ride in the Ford Trimotor with my wife, so we'll be down there for sure.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-01-25T18:33:01-05:00 2018-01-25T18:33:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49308#p49308
cam737 wrote:Yes Paul, I agree with you. The Sling does have the airframe parachute option which I like (and wife likes). I do like the RV’s. I think there is a BRS system available for the RV-7.

Hey 1/2, yes…KISM is closest for me. My son did all of his initial flying at First Landings in Remos and Cessna 150. Adam and I flew the mighty J3 Cub a few years back. XO4 is just too far for me to drive. What is your drive time to Apopka? Any options to rent LSA at KISM? I am hoping to go to the Expo on Saturday with my family. I always hit Sun N Fun, but, I have never been to the Sebring Expo. Sorry about the I-4 traffic (civil engineering at its finest). We avoid I-4 like the plague.

Hi 3D, thanks for the Rotax tips. 1-G would be all that I need. No desire for outside loops! The mission is fun. Love low and slow. I do want some cross country capability. Bahamas?

Thanks all.


Bahamas! Yes! I’m in, get the Sling and I’ll be your wingman. I miss out one year during a Grumman annual fly in to St Augustine, I had a Mag go bad. We were AOG waiting for the replacement. Had to scrub the trip. Replaced mag flew back to NY.

By The Way, did you get the 2nd email I sent you?]]>
cam737 wrote:Yes Paul, I agree with you. The Sling does have the airframe parachute option which I like (and wife likes). I do like the RV’s. I think there is a BRS system available for the RV-7.

Hey 1/2, yes…KISM is closest for me. My son did all of his initial flying at First Landings in Remos and Cessna 150. Adam and I flew the mighty J3 Cub a few years back. XO4 is just too far for me to drive. What is your drive time to Apopka? Any options to rent LSA at KISM? I am hoping to go to the Expo on Saturday with my family. I always hit Sun N Fun, but, I have never been to the Sebring Expo. Sorry about the I-4 traffic (civil engineering at its finest). We avoid I-4 like the plague.

Hi 3D, thanks for the Rotax tips. 1-G would be all that I need. No desire for outside loops! The mission is fun. Love low and slow. I do want some cross country capability. Bahamas?

Thanks all.


Bahamas! Yes! I’m in, get the Sling and I’ll be your wingman. I miss out one year during a Grumman annual fly in to St Augustine, I had a Mag go bad. We were AOG waiting for the replacement. Had to scrub the trip. Replaced mag flew back to NY.

By The Way, did you get the 2nd email I sent you?]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-01-26T03:08:10-05:00 2018-01-26T03:08:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49312#p49312
OK, 1/2...see PM. My kid is at L3 Airline Academy at Sanford FL...formally Aerosim, Comair Academy, Delta Academy, etc... great program for someone who needs a structured program...ie..."here is what you are doing today, here is what you are doing tomorrow". If I gave my kid an airplane and said get all of your ratings, he would never get it done. He is a smart kid, but, he has his dad's lazy bone..."why do today what can be put off until next week?". :)

Sling 2, NO email!!! Please PM your email address. We need to talk. There is nothing better than SAFE formation flying...except maybe SAFE formation flying to the Bahamas! Let's go.

Cam]]>

OK, 1/2...see PM. My kid is at L3 Airline Academy at Sanford FL...formally Aerosim, Comair Academy, Delta Academy, etc... great program for someone who needs a structured program...ie..."here is what you are doing today, here is what you are doing tomorrow". If I gave my kid an airplane and said get all of your ratings, he would never get it done. He is a smart kid, but, he has his dad's lazy bone..."why do today what can be put off until next week?". :)

Sling 2, NO email!!! Please PM your email address. We need to talk. There is nothing better than SAFE formation flying...except maybe SAFE formation flying to the Bahamas! Let's go.

Cam]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-01-26T03:56:55-05:00 2018-01-26T03:56:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49313#p49313
Seaplane Flying Adventure In The Bahamas

Hmmmmmmm..... However, I can do this in a Sling 2...if I do not land in water...

Cam]]>

Seaplane Flying Adventure In The Bahamas

Hmmmmmmm..... However, I can do this in a Sling 2...if I do not land in water...

Cam]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-26T09:40:02-05:00 2018-01-26T09:40:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49318#p49318 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-01-27T15:30:51-05:00 2018-01-27T15:30:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49336#p49336 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hello from Celebration, FL :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-01-31T11:19:48-05:00 2018-01-31T11:19:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4991&p=49380#p49380 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: New Pilot in Training :: Author Kayelbe]]> 2018-02-23T15:07:32-05:00 2018-02-23T15:07:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5016&p=49819#p49819
Obligatory history: Like probably 99.9% of you, I've wanted to fly since I was a little kid. Life's obstacles got in the way and the dream went to the back burner until a random conversation with a coworker late last year. Turns out, we've both wanted to fly, and quickly our BS sessions evolved into a "let's just do this!" moment. For a variety of reasons, we have both decided on obtaining our SPL. Our Disco-flights are tomorrow at KGEU! Looking forward to an amazing experience!]]>

Obligatory history: Like probably 99.9% of you, I've wanted to fly since I was a little kid. Life's obstacles got in the way and the dream went to the back burner until a random conversation with a coworker late last year. Turns out, we've both wanted to fly, and quickly our BS sessions evolved into a "let's just do this!" moment. For a variety of reasons, we have both decided on obtaining our SPL. Our Disco-flights are tomorrow at KGEU! Looking forward to an amazing experience!]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: New Pilot in Training :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-23T18:18:49-05:00 2018-02-23T18:18:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5016&p=49827#p49827 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: New Pilot in Training :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-23T18:29:44-05:00 2018-02-23T18:29:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5016&p=49828#p49828 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: New Pilot in Training :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-23T21:17:45-05:00 2018-02-23T21:17:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5016&p=49831#p49831
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Welcome and please be sure to post your discovery flight experience. What will you be flying?


Ditto!

I remember my discovery flight. It was on a turbulent day. The flight school owner told me, "If today's flight didn't scare you off, then flight training won't be a problem for you." He was right!

I think in another post you wrote that you were flying a SportCruiser. Great time of year to fly one as the bubble canopy can get hot in summer, but weather now should be really pleasant. Have a great time flying and let us know how it went!]]>
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Welcome and please be sure to post your discovery flight experience. What will you be flying?


Ditto!

I remember my discovery flight. It was on a turbulent day. The flight school owner told me, "If today's flight didn't scare you off, then flight training won't be a problem for you." He was right!

I think in another post you wrote that you were flying a SportCruiser. Great time of year to fly one as the bubble canopy can get hot in summer, but weather now should be really pleasant. Have a great time flying and let us know how it went!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: New Rotax 915is trubo fuel injected 135 hp :: Reply by jetcat3]]> 2018-01-26T09:43:22-05:00 2018-01-26T09:43:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4213&p=49319#p49319 https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/S ... 216-1.html]]> https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/S ... 216-1.html]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Sebring Expo :: Author Half Fast]]> 2018-01-27T20:08:52-05:00 2018-01-27T20:08:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4998&p=49348#p49348
This morning my wife and I flew on a Ford Trimotor, which was quite a blast.

Hope to see more of you there next year!

Attachments



FTMa.JPG (59.68 KiB)



FTMb.JPG (86.62 KiB)



FTMc.JPG (59.37 KiB)


]]>

This morning my wife and I flew on a Ford Trimotor, which was quite a blast.

Hope to see more of you there next year!

Attachments



FTMa.JPG (59.68 KiB)



FTMb.JPG (86.62 KiB)



FTMc.JPG (59.37 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Sebring? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T08:07:37-05:00 2018-01-25T08:07:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4983&p=49283#p49283
3Dreaming wrote:I thought there might be more to the story that you wanted to share.


Very astute of you, Tom. Yes, there is - much more, that deserves it's own thread. I'll start one in the Instructors Corner after I have a chance to pull my thoughts together.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I thought there might be more to the story that you wanted to share.


Very astute of you, Tom. Yes, there is - much more, that deserves it's own thread. I'll start one in the Instructors Corner after I have a chance to pull my thoughts together.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Sebring? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T08:11:46-05:00 2018-01-25T08:11:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4983&p=49284#p49284
dstclair wrote:So Paul -- are you adding DPE to your signature line?


Yes, Dave, but it's kind of a long story. Stay tuned this weekend for a new thread in the Instructor's Corner forum on this site.]]>
dstclair wrote:So Paul -- are you adding DPE to your signature line?


Yes, Dave, but it's kind of a long story. Stay tuned this weekend for a new thread in the Instructor's Corner forum on this site.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Sebring? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-31T11:24:43-05:00 2018-01-31T11:24:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4983&p=49381#p49381
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I thought there might be more to the story that you wanted to share.


Very astute of you, Tom. Yes, there is - much more, that deserves it's own thread. I'll start one in the Instructors Corner after I have a chance to pull my thoughts together.


I am eagerly awaiting that new thread!]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I thought there might be more to the story that you wanted to share.


Very astute of you, Tom. Yes, there is - much more, that deserves it's own thread. I'll start one in the Instructors Corner after I have a chance to pull my thoughts together.


I am eagerly awaiting that new thread!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Fast Eddie Sky Areo :: Author 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T10:48:47-05:00 2018-02-01T10:48:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5002&p=49409#p49409
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8v1uG ... e=youtu.be]]>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8v1uG ... e=youtu.be]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fast Eddie Sky Areo :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T11:20:05-05:00 2018-02-01T11:20:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5002&p=49414#p49414
It had been promoted on the COPA site, so Karen and I flew over

From that day:

Image

Quite an emotional reunion.]]>

It had been promoted on the COPA site, so Karen and I flew over

From that day:

Image

Quite an emotional reunion.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fast Eddie Sky Areo :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T12:08:31-05:00 2018-02-01T12:08:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5002&p=49420#p49420 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fast Eddie Sky Areo :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-01T12:57:56-05:00 2018-02-01T12:57:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5002&p=49424#p49424
3Dreaming wrote:. . . I ran across this video on model airplane site I frequent . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8v1uG ... e=youtu.be

That was outstanding.
Thank you. Enjoyed every minute of it.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:. . . I ran across this video on model airplane site I frequent . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o8v1uG ... e=youtu.be

That was outstanding.
Thank you. Enjoyed every minute of it.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-25T07:36:00-05:00 2018-01-25T07:36:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49277#p49277
Good example of over-moderation in my book.]]>

Good example of over-moderation in my book.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T07:40:32-05:00 2018-01-25T07:40:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49278#p49278
3Dreaming wrote:Reading the news article it gives me pause about the crash. Time will tell, but I have a strange feeling that it might have been something other than an accident


I immediately thought the same thing, Tom. Suicide by airplane?]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Reading the news article it gives me pause about the crash. Time will tell, but I have a strange feeling that it might have been something other than an accident


I immediately thought the same thing, Tom. Suicide by airplane?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-25T07:44:11-05:00 2018-01-25T07:44:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49279#p49279
FastEddieB wrote:
On POA, someone mentioned ATC recordings of events leading up to the accident. Has anyone stumbled upon those?



Thought there might be a link to recordings on Kathryn's Report, but the material over there seems to have been removed.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/f ... -2018.html]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
On POA, someone mentioned ATC recordings of events leading up to the accident. Has anyone stumbled upon those?



Thought there might be a link to recordings on Kathryn's Report, but the material over there seems to have been removed.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/f ... -2018.html]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T07:49:57-05:00 2018-01-25T07:49:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49280#p49280
FastEddieB wrote:My “Daniel Bernath - lessons to be learned?” thread just got locked as well.

Good example of over-moderation in my book.


Which I've always tried to avoid here, Eddie, because I believed anyone could be educated. I guess this accident proves me wrong.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:My “Daniel Bernath - lessons to be learned?” thread just got locked as well.

Good example of over-moderation in my book.


Which I've always tried to avoid here, Eddie, because I believed anyone could be educated. I guess this accident proves me wrong.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-25T07:58:51-05:00 2018-01-25T07:58:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49281#p49281
drseti wrote:
Which I've always tried to avoid here, Eddie, because I believed anyone could be educated. I guess this accident proves me wrong.



Maybe so. But at least others can learn from his unwillingness to learn. I believe that everything happens for a reason; sometimes the reason is that the person is a freakin' idiot who makes extraordinarily poor decisions.

His life wasn't wasted. He serves well as a bad example to others.]]>
drseti wrote:
Which I've always tried to avoid here, Eddie, because I believed anyone could be educated. I guess this accident proves me wrong.



Maybe so. But at least others can learn from his unwillingness to learn. I believe that everything happens for a reason; sometimes the reason is that the person is a freakin' idiot who makes extraordinarily poor decisions.

His life wasn't wasted. He serves well as a bad example to others.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-25T08:01:55-05:00 2018-01-25T08:01:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49282#p49282
Half Fast wrote:
His life wasn't wasted. He serves well as a bad example to others.


For any Warren Zevon fans out there...

Image]]>
Half Fast wrote:
His life wasn't wasted. He serves well as a bad example to others.


For any Warren Zevon fans out there...

Image]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-01-25T10:07:13-05:00 2018-01-25T10:07:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49290#p49290
drseti wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:My “Daniel Bernath - lessons to be learned?” thread just got locked as well.

Good example of over-moderation in my book.


Which I've always tried to avoid here, Eddie, because I believed anyone could be educated. I guess this accident proves me wrong.


Anyone CAN be educated, if they CHOOSE to allow the education to take place.]]>
drseti wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:My “Daniel Bernath - lessons to be learned?” thread just got locked as well.

Good example of over-moderation in my book.


Which I've always tried to avoid here, Eddie, because I believed anyone could be educated. I guess this accident proves me wrong.


Anyone CAN be educated, if they CHOOSE to allow the education to take place.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-25T10:28:25-05:00 2018-01-25T10:28:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49293#p49293
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Half Fast wrote:

Go over to the POA website and read about his fuel mismanagement crash and subsequent lawsuit. He made an unplanned landing because his fuel gauges showed low fuel, confirmed he only had about 3 gallons left, did not add fuel (??!!), then took off again in clear violation of the reg about VFR fuel reserve. After crashing, he sued the plane manufacturer, his instructor, and a host of others. Suit was finally dismissed with prejudice.

I'm not sure whether that's evidence of insanity or stupidity, but either way it's consistent with honestly believing one can use GPS ground speed to land.


Just to be fair 3 gallons in a Rotax engine does meet legal reserves, but not by much. it certainly was not enough for the airplane he was flying.
That depends on how much fuel he needed to get from where he landed to his final destination. He would need enough to get there plus 30 minutes of reserve. My point is, once he landed and decided to take off again, it was a new flight with it's own fuel requirements.


Agreed, but with a fuel burn of 5 gallons per hour, which my CT has in normal cruise, you need 2.5 gallons for your 1/2 hour reserve. That leaves .5 gallons for the flight. Using the same fuel burn you would have 6 minutes of flight time. Unless the airplane is really slow or there is a big headwind you should be able to make a 4 mile flight in less than 6 minutes. This would not be in violation of the regulations. Personally I would not do this, especially in the type of airplane he was flying.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Half Fast wrote:

Go over to the POA website and read about his fuel mismanagement crash and subsequent lawsuit. He made an unplanned landing because his fuel gauges showed low fuel, confirmed he only had about 3 gallons left, did not add fuel (??!!), then took off again in clear violation of the reg about VFR fuel reserve. After crashing, he sued the plane manufacturer, his instructor, and a host of others. Suit was finally dismissed with prejudice.

I'm not sure whether that's evidence of insanity or stupidity, but either way it's consistent with honestly believing one can use GPS ground speed to land.


Just to be fair 3 gallons in a Rotax engine does meet legal reserves, but not by much. it certainly was not enough for the airplane he was flying.
That depends on how much fuel he needed to get from where he landed to his final destination. He would need enough to get there plus 30 minutes of reserve. My point is, once he landed and decided to take off again, it was a new flight with it's own fuel requirements.


Agreed, but with a fuel burn of 5 gallons per hour, which my CT has in normal cruise, you need 2.5 gallons for your 1/2 hour reserve. That leaves .5 gallons for the flight. Using the same fuel burn you would have 6 minutes of flight time. Unless the airplane is really slow or there is a big headwind you should be able to make a 4 mile flight in less than 6 minutes. This would not be in violation of the regulations. Personally I would not do this, especially in the type of airplane he was flying.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by ct4me]]> 2018-01-25T14:13:21-05:00 2018-01-25T14:13:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49296#p49296 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-25T14:31:19-05:00 2018-01-25T14:31:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49297#p49297
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Just to be fair 3 gallons in a Rotax engine does meet legal reserves, but not by much. it certainly was not enough for the airplane he was flying.
That depends on how much fuel he needed to get from where he landed to his final destination. He would need enough to get there plus 30 minutes of reserve. My point is, once he landed and decided to take off again, it was a new flight with it's own fuel requirements.


Agreed, but with a fuel burn of 5 gallons per hour, which my CT has in normal cruise, you need 2.5 gallons for your 1/2 hour reserve. That leaves .5 gallons for the flight. Using the same fuel burn you would have 6 minutes of flight time. Unless the airplane is really slow or there is a big headwind you should be able to make a 4 mile flight in less than 6 minutes. This would not be in violation of the regulations. Personally I would not do this, especially in the type of airplane he was flying.


BUT, I believe that aircraft has 1 gallon unusable. So if you have 3 gallons in the tanks, you only have 2 gallons available to you, and at 5 gph that's 24 minutes. Besides, that 5 gph number is at cruise, not take-off and climb. Furthermore, there's nothing left for taxi, run-up, or time in the pattern.

Bad, bad, bad decision.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
Just to be fair 3 gallons in a Rotax engine does meet legal reserves, but not by much. it certainly was not enough for the airplane he was flying.
That depends on how much fuel he needed to get from where he landed to his final destination. He would need enough to get there plus 30 minutes of reserve. My point is, once he landed and decided to take off again, it was a new flight with it's own fuel requirements.


Agreed, but with a fuel burn of 5 gallons per hour, which my CT has in normal cruise, you need 2.5 gallons for your 1/2 hour reserve. That leaves .5 gallons for the flight. Using the same fuel burn you would have 6 minutes of flight time. Unless the airplane is really slow or there is a big headwind you should be able to make a 4 mile flight in less than 6 minutes. This would not be in violation of the regulations. Personally I would not do this, especially in the type of airplane he was flying.


BUT, I believe that aircraft has 1 gallon unusable. So if you have 3 gallons in the tanks, you only have 2 gallons available to you, and at 5 gph that's 24 minutes. Besides, that 5 gph number is at cruise, not take-off and climb. Furthermore, there's nothing left for taxi, run-up, or time in the pattern.

Bad, bad, bad decision.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by ct4me]]> 2018-01-25T14:31:50-05:00 2018-01-25T14:31:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49298#p49298 'Gotta agree, 'serious power tripping over there. I got banned for life for posting info about a R.Lee Rotax class. No notice, no warning, no explanation. The forum boss doesn't like Roger.

PS2.... Some manuals spec the CT at as much as 7.1 GPH on take-off and climb out.
http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/SW-POH.pdf]]>
'Gotta agree, 'serious power tripping over there. I got banned for life for posting info about a R.Lee Rotax class. No notice, no warning, no explanation. The forum boss doesn't like Roger.

PS2.... Some manuals spec the CT at as much as 7.1 GPH on take-off and climb out.
http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/SW-POH.pdf]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-25T16:42:37-05:00 2018-01-25T16:42:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49303#p49303
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/plane-crash-in-bonita-springs-fl-1-22-18.108424/page-3#post-2448380]]>

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/plane-crash-in-bonita-springs-fl-1-22-18.108424/page-3#post-2448380]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-25T17:35:13-05:00 2018-01-25T17:35:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49305#p49305
Half Fast wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:That depends on how much fuel he needed to get from where he landed to his final destination. He would need enough to get there plus 30 minutes of reserve. My point is, once he landed and decided to take off again, it was a new flight with it's own fuel requirements.


Agreed, but with a fuel burn of 5 gallons per hour, which my CT has in normal cruise, you need 2.5 gallons for your 1/2 hour reserve. That leaves .5 gallons for the flight. Using the same fuel burn you would have 6 minutes of flight time. Unless the airplane is really slow or there is a big headwind you should be able to make a 4 mile flight in less than 6 minutes. This would not be in violation of the regulations. Personally I would not do this, especially in the type of airplane he was flying.


BUT, I believe that aircraft has 1 gallon unusable. So if you have 3 gallons in the tanks, you only have 2 gallons available to you, and at 5 gph that's 24 minutes. Besides, that 5 gph number is at cruise, not take-off and climb. Furthermore, there's nothing left for taxi, run-up, or time in the pattern.

Bad, bad, bad decision.


I was not talking about any specific aircraft, just that taking off with 3 gallons wouldn't necessarily be contray to the regulations.]]>
Half Fast wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:That depends on how much fuel he needed to get from where he landed to his final destination. He would need enough to get there plus 30 minutes of reserve. My point is, once he landed and decided to take off again, it was a new flight with it's own fuel requirements.


Agreed, but with a fuel burn of 5 gallons per hour, which my CT has in normal cruise, you need 2.5 gallons for your 1/2 hour reserve. That leaves .5 gallons for the flight. Using the same fuel burn you would have 6 minutes of flight time. Unless the airplane is really slow or there is a big headwind you should be able to make a 4 mile flight in less than 6 minutes. This would not be in violation of the regulations. Personally I would not do this, especially in the type of airplane he was flying.


BUT, I believe that aircraft has 1 gallon unusable. So if you have 3 gallons in the tanks, you only have 2 gallons available to you, and at 5 gph that's 24 minutes. Besides, that 5 gph number is at cruise, not take-off and climb. Furthermore, there's nothing left for taxi, run-up, or time in the pattern.

Bad, bad, bad decision.


I was not talking about any specific aircraft, just that taking off with 3 gallons wouldn't necessarily be contray to the regulations.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-01-25T18:19:13-05:00 2018-01-25T18:19:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49306#p49306 http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=69862

The link was posted today on Kathryn's Report about the Bonita Springs fatal accident.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/vans-rv-12-n262ws-world-adventure.html

He was arrested in Virginia Dec. 2016 on multiple charges of stalking and violating a protective order.

Online records show Bernath pleaded guilty to two of those charges just last week, on Jan. 19th. He was sentenced to one year in jail and two years probation.


I wonder if he was representing himself...]]>
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=69862

The link was posted today on Kathryn's Report about the Bonita Springs fatal accident.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/vans-rv-12-n262ws-world-adventure.html

He was arrested in Virginia Dec. 2016 on multiple charges of stalking and violating a protective order.

Online records show Bernath pleaded guilty to two of those charges just last week, on Jan. 19th. He was sentenced to one year in jail and two years probation.


I wonder if he was representing himself...]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-25T18:31:25-05:00 2018-01-25T18:31:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49307#p49307 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-01-26T06:43:28-05:00 2018-01-26T06:43:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49314#p49314
That said, curious about the accident... Might be the first time the NTSB adds personality deficiency to its' causes.]]>

That said, curious about the accident... Might be the first time the NTSB adds personality deficiency to its' causes.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-26T06:56:34-05:00 2018-01-26T06:56:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49316#p49316
Cross-posting text blocks from another forum can be frowned upon, but there are a couple in this post to POA that may be illustrative:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/plane-crash-in-bonita-springs-fl-1-22-18.108424/page-3#post-2448626

Definitely in the area of broad speculation here, but if Bernath was as lackadaisical and resistant to advice regarding maintenance issues - including apparently flight control issues - as he was to our advice about iPads and landing, it’s not hard to imagine an avoidable mechanical issue being involved somehow.

Out of morbid curious, I may peruse his posts on the Vans site to look for clues. I would imagine the NTSB will do likewise.]]>

Cross-posting text blocks from another forum can be frowned upon, but there are a couple in this post to POA that may be illustrative:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/plane-crash-in-bonita-springs-fl-1-22-18.108424/page-3#post-2448626

Definitely in the area of broad speculation here, but if Bernath was as lackadaisical and resistant to advice regarding maintenance issues - including apparently flight control issues - as he was to our advice about iPads and landing, it’s not hard to imagine an avoidable mechanical issue being involved somehow.

Out of morbid curious, I may peruse his posts on the Vans site to look for clues. I would imagine the NTSB will do likewise.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Merlinspop]]> 2018-01-26T09:13:07-05:00 2018-01-26T09:13:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49317#p49317 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-26T11:30:03-05:00 2018-01-26T11:30:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49320#p49320 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by joey4420]]> 2018-01-26T16:23:37-05:00 2018-01-26T16:23:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49321#p49321
I know as a low time sport pilot with only 91.2 hours total, 172 landings, and 62.3 as Pilot in Command; 53.1 of which is in my Ercoupe. I am always willing to learn and seeking more information on how to be a better pilot. Sure I read forums and talk to pilots almost every weekend (local EAA chapter), but true flying advise I seek out from Flight Instructors preferably with Ercoupe experience as that is what I spend my time in.

I was flying just 2 weeks ago, preflighted my Ercoupe calculated I had enough fuel to get to my destination all checked out and I took off for KTSO from KHAO. About 40 minutes from KTSO I noticed my header tank was using fuel even though I seen my port wing tank still indicated fuel. I landed at the next airport with fuel and filled both tanks without even a second thought. Took off again and finished my flight plan as planned. Of course I filled up again before flying back home because I didn't want a repeat of that flight. My calculation was off due to a 10 knot headwind.

We are always learning,]]>

I know as a low time sport pilot with only 91.2 hours total, 172 landings, and 62.3 as Pilot in Command; 53.1 of which is in my Ercoupe. I am always willing to learn and seeking more information on how to be a better pilot. Sure I read forums and talk to pilots almost every weekend (local EAA chapter), but true flying advise I seek out from Flight Instructors preferably with Ercoupe experience as that is what I spend my time in.

I was flying just 2 weeks ago, preflighted my Ercoupe calculated I had enough fuel to get to my destination all checked out and I took off for KTSO from KHAO. About 40 minutes from KTSO I noticed my header tank was using fuel even though I seen my port wing tank still indicated fuel. I landed at the next airport with fuel and filled both tanks without even a second thought. Took off again and finished my flight plan as planned. Of course I filled up again before flying back home because I didn't want a repeat of that flight. My calculation was off due to a 10 knot headwind.

We are always learning,]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T22:34:40-05:00 2018-01-27T22:34:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49358#p49358 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-29T10:33:09-05:00 2018-01-29T10:33:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49367#p49367 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-29T11:22:55-05:00 2018-01-29T11:22:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49370#p49370 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-29T11:26:39-05:00 2018-01-29T11:26:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49371#p49371
comperini wrote:So I've listened to the audio of him right up to the time he called Mayday. Did the man have absolutely no clue as to how to talk to a tower, or did he have a stroke or some other medical problem that caused him to utter nonsense on the radio?



Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.]]>
comperini wrote:So I've listened to the audio of him right up to the time he called Mayday. Did the man have absolutely no clue as to how to talk to a tower, or did he have a stroke or some other medical problem that caused him to utter nonsense on the radio?



Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-29T11:56:01-05:00 2018-01-29T11:56:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49374#p49374
Half Fast wrote:
comperini wrote:Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.


Yea, who knows... I know he was disbarred in California. Not sure about Oregon or any other state. Sure burned a lot of bridges though. I love the video of him with Don Shipley in front of his Florida home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUaPTBQGsA]]>
Half Fast wrote:
comperini wrote:Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.


Yea, who knows... I know he was disbarred in California. Not sure about Oregon or any other state. Sure burned a lot of bridges though. I love the video of him with Don Shipley in front of his Florida home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUaPTBQGsA]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-29T14:40:58-05:00 2018-01-29T14:40:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49377#p49377
comperini wrote:
Half Fast wrote:
comperini wrote:Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.


Yea, who knows... I know he was disbarred in California. Not sure about Oregon or any other state. Sure burned a lot of bridges though. I love the video of him with Don Shipley in front of his Florida home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUaPTBQGsA



He was denied admission to the Oregon bar. https://law.justia.com/cases/oregon/sup ... 44863.html "...applicant has not proved that he possesses the requisite good moral character and fitness to practice law in this state."]]>
comperini wrote:
Half Fast wrote:
comperini wrote:Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.


Yea, who knows... I know he was disbarred in California. Not sure about Oregon or any other state. Sure burned a lot of bridges though. I love the video of him with Don Shipley in front of his Florida home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUaPTBQGsA



He was denied admission to the Oregon bar. https://law.justia.com/cases/oregon/sup ... 44863.html "...applicant has not proved that he possesses the requisite good moral character and fitness to practice law in this state."]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-01-31T17:25:49-05:00 2018-01-31T17:25:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49384#p49384
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... m&IType=FA


The first thing that stands out to me is that the last Condition Inspection was completed on July 24, 2016. The airplane was overdue on it's annual Condition Inspection by about six months.

Also, the destination was not Immokalee as someone erroneously reported in the press. This was repeated several times in different forums. It's a nit that doesn't mean much, but the initial contact with the ground controller at Page Field (KFMY) indicated his destination was Everglades Airpark (X01).

I'm thinking the overdue C.I. was typical of his other behavior patterns involving "ignoring the rules."

After reading this initial report, I am expecting the final NTSB report to include some very interesting details. Maybe/Maybe not. We'll see. Stay tuned.

P.S. The inclusion of Vic Syracuse in the investigation representing Van's Aircraft is a definite plus. He is well versed in building and flying Experimental Aircraft including several RV's. If there was anything wrong with the airplane, I believe he can find it as well as anyone. He's from the Atlanta area, even though it lists Aurora, Oregon. That just his employer's address.

P.P.S. And one more thought...the pilot was right...you won't read his name in any NTSB report. Because the NTSB doesn't show the occupants' names in the preliminary or final reports. However, we all knew what he meant and had good reasons to disagree with him.]]>

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... m&IType=FA


The first thing that stands out to me is that the last Condition Inspection was completed on July 24, 2016. The airplane was overdue on it's annual Condition Inspection by about six months.

Also, the destination was not Immokalee as someone erroneously reported in the press. This was repeated several times in different forums. It's a nit that doesn't mean much, but the initial contact with the ground controller at Page Field (KFMY) indicated his destination was Everglades Airpark (X01).

I'm thinking the overdue C.I. was typical of his other behavior patterns involving "ignoring the rules."

After reading this initial report, I am expecting the final NTSB report to include some very interesting details. Maybe/Maybe not. We'll see. Stay tuned.

P.S. The inclusion of Vic Syracuse in the investigation representing Van's Aircraft is a definite plus. He is well versed in building and flying Experimental Aircraft including several RV's. If there was anything wrong with the airplane, I believe he can find it as well as anyone. He's from the Atlanta area, even though it lists Aurora, Oregon. That just his employer's address.

P.P.S. And one more thought...the pilot was right...you won't read his name in any NTSB report. Because the NTSB doesn't show the occupants' names in the preliminary or final reports. However, we all knew what he meant and had good reasons to disagree with him.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T01:20:05-05:00 2018-02-01T01:20:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49396#p49396
The 750 foot impact path was most likely the distance from the first impact with tree tops until it came to rest on the ground in the wooded area. It’s hard to see how dense the trees are or what kind they are. I’m guessing sparse pine thicket about 40 feet tall max.

“Become known, the facts will.” Yoda]]>

The 750 foot impact path was most likely the distance from the first impact with tree tops until it came to rest on the ground in the wooded area. It’s hard to see how dense the trees are or what kind they are. I’m guessing sparse pine thicket about 40 feet tall max.

“Become known, the facts will.” Yoda]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T06:55:31-05:00 2018-02-01T06:55:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49398#p49398
Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.]]>

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-01T08:51:42-05:00 2018-02-01T08:51:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49401#p49401
FastEddieB wrote:After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.



Haven't had time to read all that yet, but I notice that the thread ended a couple of months prior to his last recorded annual. I'd be more worried if it were after the annual, but who knows what he did to the plane in the year and a half between the annual and the crash?]]>
FastEddieB wrote:After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.



Haven't had time to read all that yet, but I notice that the thread ended a couple of months prior to his last recorded annual. I'd be more worried if it were after the annual, but who knows what he did to the plane in the year and a half between the annual and the crash?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T11:56:37-05:00 2018-02-01T11:56:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49417#p49417
FastEddieB wrote:After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.


Yes, I've read those threads several times. Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?

Also, don't forget that the pitch trim on an RV-12, IS the PITCH CONTROL via the Stabilator, unlike the conventional Horizontal Stabilizer, Elevator and Trim Tab of most airplanes.

Flutter? Could be, and than we may never know. But I'd bet Van's either has data or will run tests to see if it was a possible cause.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.


Yes, I've read those threads several times. Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?

Also, don't forget that the pitch trim on an RV-12, IS the PITCH CONTROL via the Stabilator, unlike the conventional Horizontal Stabilizer, Elevator and Trim Tab of most airplanes.

Flutter? Could be, and than we may never know. But I'd bet Van's either has data or will run tests to see if it was a possible cause.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T11:58:47-05:00 2018-02-01T11:58:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49418#p49418
Half Fast wrote:...Haven't had time to read all that yet, but I notice that the thread ended a couple of months prior to his last recorded annual. I'd be more worried if it were after the annual, but who knows what he did to the plane in the year and a half between the annual and the crash?


I agree. Seems typical of his personality.]]>
Half Fast wrote:...Haven't had time to read all that yet, but I notice that the thread ended a couple of months prior to his last recorded annual. I'd be more worried if it were after the annual, but who knows what he did to the plane in the year and a half between the annual and the crash?


I agree. Seems typical of his personality.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T12:07:06-05:00 2018-02-01T12:07:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49419#p49419
After thinking about it, I'd almost bet he removed the wings of the RV-12 and towed it cross country and then re-assembled it in Florida. It is possible to fly cross country without talking on the radio, but I sure wouldn't want to do it, especially through the very busy airspace of Central Florida.

I wonder if any witnesses to his initial arrival in Florida are willing to step forward and vouch for how he got N262WS to Florida. If I'm wrong, I will stand corrected.]]>

After thinking about it, I'd almost bet he removed the wings of the RV-12 and towed it cross country and then re-assembled it in Florida. It is possible to fly cross country without talking on the radio, but I sure wouldn't want to do it, especially through the very busy airspace of Central Florida.

I wonder if any witnesses to his initial arrival in Florida are willing to step forward and vouch for how he got N262WS to Florida. If I'm wrong, I will stand corrected.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T12:10:39-05:00 2018-02-01T12:10:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49421#p49421
Yoda wrote:Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?



If it was an ELSA, he was legal to do any maintenance or repair without any certificate or training.

I recall he took a ROTAX course, but don’t recall the LSRM training being mentioned.]]>
Yoda wrote:Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?



If it was an ELSA, he was legal to do any maintenance or repair without any certificate or training.

I recall he took a ROTAX course, but don’t recall the LSRM training being mentioned.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T12:39:04-05:00 2018-02-01T12:39:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49422#p49422
FastEddieB wrote:
Yoda wrote:Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?



If it was an ELSA, he was legal to do any maintenance or repair without any certificate or training.

I recall he took a ROTAX course, but don’t recall the LSRM training being mentioned.


Yep, you're probably right. I was probably remembering his mention of the ROTAX course.

So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate? I thought he had to take the course even if he did build it under ELSA. If it were EAB, my understanding is he could work on it, but the annual inspections would have to be signed off by an A&P/IA, same as any other EAB. I know this gets into sticky territory. Lots of what-ifs, and oh-by-the-ways.

Plus, we're discussing the legal requirements, which we all know he seemed to ignore. So it is all just speculation anyway. We're used to discussing the way things should be done, legally. Here we're talking about a lawyer who was completely off the page.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Yoda wrote:Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?



If it was an ELSA, he was legal to do any maintenance or repair without any certificate or training.

I recall he took a ROTAX course, but don’t recall the LSRM training being mentioned.


Yep, you're probably right. I was probably remembering his mention of the ROTAX course.

So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate? I thought he had to take the course even if he did build it under ELSA. If it were EAB, my understanding is he could work on it, but the annual inspections would have to be signed off by an A&P/IA, same as any other EAB. I know this gets into sticky territory. Lots of what-ifs, and oh-by-the-ways.

Plus, we're discussing the legal requirements, which we all know he seemed to ignore. So it is all just speculation anyway. We're used to discussing the way things should be done, legally. Here we're talking about a lawyer who was completely off the page.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T13:17:33-05:00 2018-02-01T13:17:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49427#p49427
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


True, Yoda. Any trained (or untrained) monkey can maintain, modify, or repair any experimental aircraft, ELSA or E-AB, whether the owner or not. The Repairman Certificate is required only for the condition inspection.

The rules are indeed confusing. Four years ago, I did an EAA Webinar on the subject. A video is on my website. Here's the link:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4]]>
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


True, Yoda. Any trained (or untrained) monkey can maintain, modify, or repair any experimental aircraft, ELSA or E-AB, whether the owner or not. The Repairman Certificate is required only for the condition inspection.

The rules are indeed confusing. Four years ago, I did an EAA Webinar on the subject. A video is on my website. Here's the link:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-01T13:25:54-05:00 2018-02-01T13:25:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49430#p49430
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections]]>
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-01T13:27:07-05:00 2018-02-01T13:27:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49431#p49431
FastEddieB wrote:Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429


Sheesh, I was only reading the first page of that thread, when I saw Daniel's infamous words: "Its a long story and a lawsuit has been filed."

Typical!]]>
FastEddieB wrote:Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429


Sheesh, I was only reading the first page of that thread, when I saw Daniel's infamous words: "Its a long story and a lawsuit has been filed."

Typical!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T13:31:55-05:00 2018-02-01T13:43:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49432#p49432
drseti wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


True, Yoda. Any trained (or untrained) monkey can maintain, modify, or repair any experimental aircraft, ELSA or E-AB, whether the owner or not. The Repairman Certificate is required only for the condition inspection.

The rules are indeed confusing. Four years ago, I did an EAA Webinar on the subject. A video is on my website. Here's the link:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4



Okay, thanks. I've probably read it before, but right now I'm not in LSA, although I might be someday...thus the interest in LSA. Thanks for straightening me out. Also, I don't have time right now to view the webinar, but the first slide sounds like just what I need to see. I'll check it out later. Thanks for all you do in LSA and in this forum.]]>
drseti wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


True, Yoda. Any trained (or untrained) monkey can maintain, modify, or repair any experimental aircraft, ELSA or E-AB, whether the owner or not. The Repairman Certificate is required only for the condition inspection.

The rules are indeed confusing. Four years ago, I did an EAA Webinar on the subject. A video is on my website. Here's the link:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4



Okay, thanks. I've probably read it before, but right now I'm not in LSA, although I might be someday...thus the interest in LSA. Thanks for straightening me out. Also, I don't have time right now to view the webinar, but the first slide sounds like just what I need to see. I'll check it out later. Thanks for all you do in LSA and in this forum.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T13:33:40-05:00 2018-02-01T13:33:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49434#p49434
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections



Okay, thanks.]]>
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections



Okay, thanks.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T14:01:41-05:00 2018-02-01T14:29:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49435#p49435
In the "certified world", an AI is seen to be a higher order than an A&P, with more privileges.

But with Light Sports,...

A Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance lets its holder work on anyone's Light Sport and do annual condition inspections, even for compensation. Takes a 15 day, 120 course and costs $3,895 from Rainbow Aviation.

A Light Sport Repairman-Inspection only permits its holder to perform annual condition inspections on the one specific aircraft that he or she owns, and that aircraft is listed on the certificate:

Image

Takes a 2 day, 16 hour course, and costs $400 from Rainbow. Also available from Sport Aviation Specialties near Atlanta, and others. Focuses almost entirely on inspection procedures and legal matters, with practically nothing on actual maintenance, per sé.

Does that help?]]>

In the "certified world", an AI is seen to be a higher order than an A&P, with more privileges.

But with Light Sports,...

A Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance lets its holder work on anyone's Light Sport and do annual condition inspections, even for compensation. Takes a 15 day, 120 course and costs $3,895 from Rainbow Aviation.

A Light Sport Repairman-Inspection only permits its holder to perform annual condition inspections on the one specific aircraft that he or she owns, and that aircraft is listed on the certificate:

Image

Takes a 2 day, 16 hour course, and costs $400 from Rainbow. Also available from Sport Aviation Specialties near Atlanta, and others. Focuses almost entirely on inspection procedures and legal matters, with practically nothing on actual maintenance, per sé.

Does that help?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T14:19:32-05:00 2018-02-01T14:19:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49436#p49436
FastEddieB wrote:I think some of the confusion stems from the nomenclature.

In the "certified world", an AI is seen to be a higher order than an A&P, with more privileges.

But with Light Sports,...

A Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance lets its holder work on anyone's Light Sport and do annual condition inspections, even for compensation. Takes a 15 day, 120 course and costs $3,895 from Rainbow Aviation.

A Light Sport Repairman-Inspection only permits its holder to perform annual condition on the one specific aircraft that he or she owns, and that aircraft is listed on the certificate:

Image

Takes a 2 day, 16 hour course, and costs $400 from Rainbow. Also available from Sport Aviation Specialties near Atlanta, and others. Focuses almost entirely on inspection procedures and legal matters, with practically nothing on actual maintenance, per sé.

Does that help?


Yes, definitely.

I'm surprised I didn't get any agreement/disagreement or opinions about the cross country comment in my post. Probably should have made it a separate post. What's your opinion about him flying across the North American continent?]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I think some of the confusion stems from the nomenclature.

In the "certified world", an AI is seen to be a higher order than an A&P, with more privileges.

But with Light Sports,...

A Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance lets its holder work on anyone's Light Sport and do annual condition inspections, even for compensation. Takes a 15 day, 120 course and costs $3,895 from Rainbow Aviation.

A Light Sport Repairman-Inspection only permits its holder to perform annual condition on the one specific aircraft that he or she owns, and that aircraft is listed on the certificate:

Image

Takes a 2 day, 16 hour course, and costs $400 from Rainbow. Also available from Sport Aviation Specialties near Atlanta, and others. Focuses almost entirely on inspection procedures and legal matters, with practically nothing on actual maintenance, per sé.

Does that help?


Yes, definitely.

I'm surprised I didn't get any agreement/disagreement or opinions about the cross country comment in my post. Probably should have made it a separate post. What's your opinion about him flying across the North American continent?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T14:33:03-05:00 2018-02-01T14:33:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49437#p49437
Yoda wrote:I'm surprised I didn't get any agreement/disagreement or opinions about the cross country comment in my post. Probably should have made it a separate post. What's your opinion about him flying across the North American continent?


Utilizing the Principal of Charity - which I'm not sure he deserves - I'll still assume he made the flight until proven otherwise.

Its not that hard to do without talking to anyone, if you avoid certain kinds of airspace, and further don't know what you don't know. Or care.]]>
Yoda wrote:I'm surprised I didn't get any agreement/disagreement or opinions about the cross country comment in my post. Probably should have made it a separate post. What's your opinion about him flying across the North American continent?


Utilizing the Principal of Charity - which I'm not sure he deserves - I'll still assume he made the flight until proven otherwise.

Its not that hard to do without talking to anyone, if you avoid certain kinds of airspace, and further don't know what you don't know. Or care.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T15:17:39-05:00 2018-02-01T15:17:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49438#p49438
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections


The repairman certificate only allows the performance of condition inspections. The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection. Annual and 100hour inspections are for type certified aircraft.]]>
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections


The repairman certificate only allows the performance of condition inspections. The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection. Annual and 100hour inspections are for type certified aircraft.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-01T15:28:07-05:00 2018-02-01T15:46:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49439#p49439
FastEddieB wrote:...<SNIP>...Its not that hard to do without talking to anyone, if you avoid certain kinds of airspace, and further don't know what you don't know. Or care.


My brother once flew a Baby Ace from Idaho to Tennessee without talking to anyone on the radio. But that was 40 years ago, and I know he was more experienced than yorktown. Plus the airspace in Florida is much more involved than that in Tennessee 40 years ago. Again, it's just speculation on my part, I admit that, so maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for the reply.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:...<SNIP>...Its not that hard to do without talking to anyone, if you avoid certain kinds of airspace, and further don't know what you don't know. Or care.


My brother once flew a Baby Ace from Idaho to Tennessee without talking to anyone on the radio. But that was 40 years ago, and I know he was more experienced than yorktown. Plus the airspace in Florida is much more involved than that in Tennessee 40 years ago. Again, it's just speculation on my part, I admit that, so maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for the reply.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-02-01T15:31:36-05:00 2018-02-01T15:31:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49440#p49440
3Dreaming wrote:
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections


The repairman certificate only allows the performance of condition inspections. The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection. Annual and 100hour inspections are for type certified aircraft.


This is true. I can so a field overhaul on my engine with exactly zero training. Dumb move, but it's legal. The repairman certificate is only needed to sign off the condition inspection. This is one of the great super powers in my mind of experimental aviation -- the fact that anybody can do anything to the airplane at any time, as long as once a year somebody qualified by the FAA attests that it's in condition for safe operation. It's an amazing degree of individual freedom that doesn't exist in any other country I am aware of.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections


The repairman certificate only allows the performance of condition inspections. The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection. Annual and 100hour inspections are for type certified aircraft.


This is true. I can so a field overhaul on my engine with exactly zero training. Dumb move, but it's legal. The repairman certificate is only needed to sign off the condition inspection. This is one of the great super powers in my mind of experimental aviation -- the fact that anybody can do anything to the airplane at any time, as long as once a year somebody qualified by the FAA attests that it's in condition for safe operation. It's an amazing degree of individual freedom that doesn't exist in any other country I am aware of.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T17:14:15-05:00 2018-02-01T17:14:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49449#p49449
3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.]]>
3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T17:16:55-05:00 2018-02-01T17:16:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49450#p49450
MrMorden wrote:I can do a field overhaul on my engine with exactly zero training.


Yes, you can, Andy (although I happen to know you're too intelligent to ever attempt that)]]>
MrMorden wrote:I can do a field overhaul on my engine with exactly zero training.


Yes, you can, Andy (although I happen to know you're too intelligent to ever attempt that)]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-01T17:25:04-05:00 2018-02-01T17:25:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49452#p49452 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T17:40:00-05:00 2018-02-01T17:40:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49454#p49454
WDD wrote:So, if anyone can do anything to their own plane, why would someone convert from a SLSA or ELSA to a EAB? I've got to be missing something.


You are! Anyone can only do anything to their own airplane is it has an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental category.]]>
WDD wrote:So, if anyone can do anything to their own plane, why would someone convert from a SLSA or ELSA to a EAB? I've got to be missing something.


You are! Anyone can only do anything to their own airplane is it has an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental category.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T17:44:59-05:00 2018-02-01T17:44:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49455#p49455
However I know of no path for converting an SLSA to an E-AB. To be an E-AB, the aircraft must have been initially built as an experimental, and given its original airworthiness certificate that way.]]>

However I know of no path for converting an SLSA to an E-AB. To be an E-AB, the aircraft must have been initially built as an experimental, and given its original airworthiness certificate that way.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T17:52:54-05:00 2018-02-01T17:52:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49457#p49457
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.


Paul, I am uncertain, do you know the requirements for maintenance when providing instruction in a ELSA under a LODA issued by the FAA? My guess is that they would require an inspection every 100 hours as well.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.


Paul, I am uncertain, do you know the requirements for maintenance when providing instruction in a ELSA under a LODA issued by the FAA? My guess is that they would require an inspection every 100 hours as well.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-01T18:03:57-05:00 2018-02-01T18:03:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49458#p49458
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.


Except for those people who hold LODAs. They can perform commercial operations in their experimentals, and therefore 100 hour inspections are required. However, a light-sport repairman with a maintenance rating, or A&P are required to do the 100 hour. The Repairman/inspection can't do them.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.


Except for those people who hold LODAs. They can perform commercial operations in their experimentals, and therefore 100 hour inspections are required. However, a light-sport repairman with a maintenance rating, or A&P are required to do the 100 hour. The Repairman/inspection can't do them.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-01T18:08:56-05:00 2018-02-01T18:08:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49460#p49460
drseti wrote:However I know of no path for converting an SLSA to an E-AB. To be an E-AB, the aircraft must have been initially built as an experimental, and given its original airworthiness certificate that way.


To be eligible to become an E-AB... the aircraft can't ever have held any other airworthiness, and at least 51% must have been built "by amateurs". That alone, disqualifies an SLSA.

The ONLY difference between an E-LSA and an E-AB is: (1) What made the aircraft eligible to be certificated in the appropriate experimental category in the first place, and (2) The process by which one obtains a repairman certificate for each kind of aircraft (for example, for E-AB, the repairman certificate is available to only the person who built more than 51% of the plane, and in the case of E-LSA, it's available to the owner, if the owner took the 16 hour course, and added their aircraft to the list of aircraft on their repairman certificate). There is no "changing experimental categories" once certificated.]]>
drseti wrote:However I know of no path for converting an SLSA to an E-AB. To be an E-AB, the aircraft must have been initially built as an experimental, and given its original airworthiness certificate that way.


To be eligible to become an E-AB... the aircraft can't ever have held any other airworthiness, and at least 51% must have been built "by amateurs". That alone, disqualifies an SLSA.

The ONLY difference between an E-LSA and an E-AB is: (1) What made the aircraft eligible to be certificated in the appropriate experimental category in the first place, and (2) The process by which one obtains a repairman certificate for each kind of aircraft (for example, for E-AB, the repairman certificate is available to only the person who built more than 51% of the plane, and in the case of E-LSA, it's available to the owner, if the owner took the 16 hour course, and added their aircraft to the list of aircraft on their repairman certificate). There is no "changing experimental categories" once certificated.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T18:18:58-05:00 2018-02-01T18:18:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49463#p49463 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by zaitcev]]> 2018-02-02T17:46:51-05:00 2018-02-02T17:48:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49499#p49499
Yoda wrote:[My brother once flew a Baby Ace from Idaho to Tennessee without talking to anyone on the radio. But that was 40 years ago ...

I few a Carlson from New York to Texas last October, also didn't talk to anyone. I forgot my usual headset in New Mexico, and borrowed by wife's Bose A20 for the flight. It turned out that the set wasn't compatible with my ICOM A220, so my transmissions were garbled and unreadable. Fortunately, I didn't try to land at a towered field before I found out. After that it was basically NORDO for 5 days straight until I landed at the home base.]]>
Yoda wrote:[My brother once flew a Baby Ace from Idaho to Tennessee without talking to anyone on the radio. But that was 40 years ago ...

I few a Carlson from New York to Texas last October, also didn't talk to anyone. I forgot my usual headset in New Mexico, and borrowed by wife's Bose A20 for the flight. It turned out that the set wasn't compatible with my ICOM A220, so my transmissions were garbled and unreadable. Fortunately, I didn't try to land at a towered field before I found out. After that it was basically NORDO for 5 days straight until I landed at the home base.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-02T18:04:31-05:00 2018-02-02T18:04:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49502#p49502
zaitcev wrote:It turned out that the set wasn't compatible with my ICOM A220, so my transmissions were garbled and unreadable. Fortunately, I didn't try to land at a towered field before I found out.

Would you recommend the ICOM A220?
Other than your intercom problem, would you say it is a good radio for light sport VFR?
I am planning having one installed very soon and any advice/reports are appreciated.]]>
zaitcev wrote:It turned out that the set wasn't compatible with my ICOM A220, so my transmissions were garbled and unreadable. Fortunately, I didn't try to land at a towered field before I found out.

Would you recommend the ICOM A220?
Other than your intercom problem, would you say it is a good radio for light sport VFR?
I am planning having one installed very soon and any advice/reports are appreciated.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by zaitcev]]> 2018-02-03T00:20:19-05:00 2018-02-03T00:20:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49505#p49505
Wm.Ince wrote:Would you recommend the ICOM A220?
Other than your intercom problem, would you say it is a good radio for light sport VFR?


I think you'll never have my problem because you're going to have an intercom between the radio and headset. Carlson is a single-seater, so headset goes straight into radio. And these things happen often, evidently. My David Clark (really!) is not compatible with my Vertex 220 portable.

As far as recommendations, I think it's an okay radio, with some quirks. It replaced the A200 that I kneed in my crash. So, first surprise - the D-connector is not compatible with A200. Also, I flew with it for months now, I looked at the manual, and I cannot figure how to adjust the squelch. The default is fully automatic and works great most of the time, except that in my airplane it thinks that my ignition noise is a signal and that is super annoying. Again not something a real airplane with a shielded ignition would suffer, I imagine.

A hangar neighour installed an A220 into his Cessna 140, and seems happy with it. Like I said, it should be fine in a real airplane.

Knowing what I know now, I would try and find a radio with more traditional controls. I never use the dual monitoring function either.

Chris (the builder) was really against any small radios that go into 2.25" panel holes. I wanted to switch to it because I didn't want to knee the radio again in its present location. But he talked me into A220 because it's supposedly less troublesome.]]>
Wm.Ince wrote:Would you recommend the ICOM A220?
Other than your intercom problem, would you say it is a good radio for light sport VFR?


I think you'll never have my problem because you're going to have an intercom between the radio and headset. Carlson is a single-seater, so headset goes straight into radio. And these things happen often, evidently. My David Clark (really!) is not compatible with my Vertex 220 portable.

As far as recommendations, I think it's an okay radio, with some quirks. It replaced the A200 that I kneed in my crash. So, first surprise - the D-connector is not compatible with A200. Also, I flew with it for months now, I looked at the manual, and I cannot figure how to adjust the squelch. The default is fully automatic and works great most of the time, except that in my airplane it thinks that my ignition noise is a signal and that is super annoying. Again not something a real airplane with a shielded ignition would suffer, I imagine.

A hangar neighour installed an A220 into his Cessna 140, and seems happy with it. Like I said, it should be fine in a real airplane.

Knowing what I know now, I would try and find a radio with more traditional controls. I never use the dual monitoring function either.

Chris (the builder) was really against any small radios that go into 2.25" panel holes. I wanted to switch to it because I didn't want to knee the radio again in its present location. But he talked me into A220 because it's supposedly less troublesome.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-03T00:26:37-05:00 2018-02-03T00:26:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49506#p49506 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-05T10:50:32-05:00 2018-02-05T10:50:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49531#p49531
Wm.Ince wrote:Would you recommend the ICOM A220?
Other than your intercom problem, would you say it is a good radio for light sport VFR?
I am planning having one installed very soon and any advice/reports are appreciated.


Hi Bill,

I'd highly recommend the Garmin GTR-200 radio over the ICOM. I have a friend with the ICOM and he prefers my GTR-200 over his own ICOM. Just food for thought. If you haven't researched it, have a look at the Garmin.]]>
Wm.Ince wrote:Would you recommend the ICOM A220?
Other than your intercom problem, would you say it is a good radio for light sport VFR?
I am planning having one installed very soon and any advice/reports are appreciated.


Hi Bill,

I'd highly recommend the Garmin GTR-200 radio over the ICOM. I have a friend with the ICOM and he prefers my GTR-200 over his own ICOM. Just food for thought. If you haven't researched it, have a look at the Garmin.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-05T12:44:20-05:00 2018-02-05T12:44:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49542#p49542
ShawnM wrote:Hi Bill,

I'd highly recommend the Garmin GTR-200 radio over the ICOM. I have a friend with the ICOM and he prefers my GTR-200 over his own ICOM. Just food for thought. If you haven't researched it, have a look at the Garmin.

Thank you.]]>
ShawnM wrote:Hi Bill,

I'd highly recommend the Garmin GTR-200 radio over the ICOM. I have a friend with the ICOM and he prefers my GTR-200 over his own ICOM. Just food for thought. If you haven't researched it, have a look at the Garmin.

Thank you.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Fatality - USSYorktown :: Reply by theoarno]]> 2018-02-09T14:15:21-05:00 2018-02-09T14:15:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995&p=49600#p49600
Warmi wrote:The first thing you find when you query for this username is this eerie post ....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4042&p=36807

I'm the one who posted that. I think he had some issues and couldn't get himself right so he went after others.]]>
Warmi wrote:The first thing you find when you query for this username is this eerie post ....

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4042&p=36807

I'm the one who posted that. I think he had some issues and couldn't get himself right so he went after others.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Ramp Apes :: Reply by rgstubbsjr]]> 2018-02-18T10:51:10-05:00 2018-02-18T10:51:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4948&p=49671#p49671 People don't use facilities if they don't feel welcome.
If they don't use the facilities, no money changes hands.]]>
People don't use facilities if they don't feel welcome.
If they don't use the facilities, no money changes hands.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Hand Proping :: Author Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-14T06:41:11-05:00 2018-02-14T06:41:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49634#p49634

Can you hand prop a Rotex 912 to start it?]]>


Can you hand prop a Rotex 912 to start it?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-14T06:44:50-05:00 2018-02-14T06:44:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49635#p49635 https://youtu.be/-JUBrHYsh4E]]> https://youtu.be/-JUBrHYsh4E]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-14T07:34:47-05:00 2018-02-14T07:34:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49636#p49636
Glad to be shown it’s at least theoretically possible.]]>

Glad to be shown it’s at least theoretically possible.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-14T10:32:07-05:00 2018-02-14T10:32:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49637#p49637
A couple things to point out about the video. He states that it is a 912UL, which is the 80 horse version. The 80 HP engine has lower compression and a different gear reduction. Both of these make it a little easier to turn the engine by the propeller compared to the 100 HP version. Another thing is that it looks like he has a Warp Drive propeller, which has more mass than a lot of the other composite propellers in use. The extra mass makes it easier to prop as well.

I have been propping airplanes of all sizes since I was a kid, and I don't think I would try propping a 100 HP Rotax.]]>

A couple things to point out about the video. He states that it is a 912UL, which is the 80 horse version. The 80 HP engine has lower compression and a different gear reduction. Both of these make it a little easier to turn the engine by the propeller compared to the 100 HP version. Another thing is that it looks like he has a Warp Drive propeller, which has more mass than a lot of the other composite propellers in use. The extra mass makes it easier to prop as well.

I have been propping airplanes of all sizes since I was a kid, and I don't think I would try propping a 100 HP Rotax.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-14T14:16:46-05:00 2018-02-14T14:16:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49638#p49638 If the throttle happens to be set to a higher RPM the engine will jump to that RMP almost instantly. I know some of you with the soft start function might not realize that they will accelerate that quickly. If you were to hand prop the soft start functions would not come into play.]]> If the throttle happens to be set to a higher RPM the engine will jump to that RMP almost instantly. I know some of you with the soft start function might not realize that they will accelerate that quickly. If you were to hand prop the soft start functions would not come into play.]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-15T17:43:40-05:00 2018-02-15T17:43:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49648#p49648 Last week I viewed a "everything you wanted to know about a Rotex" youtube video. The presenter was fairly adamant about not hand propping, as the prop speed needs to be higher to start, and it will kick up to an idle that is faster than the larger bore Continentals, etc.

Another comment was that as the electrical system was 12 volt, even a small 12 volt battery in a car or even motorcycle would suffice to jump start it.]]>
Last week I viewed a "everything you wanted to know about a Rotex" youtube video. The presenter was fairly adamant about not hand propping, as the prop speed needs to be higher to start, and it will kick up to an idle that is faster than the larger bore Continentals, etc.

Another comment was that as the electrical system was 12 volt, even a small 12 volt battery in a car or even motorcycle would suffice to jump start it.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-17T07:09:22-05:00 2018-02-17T07:09:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49655#p49655
I should mention that I have NO intention of hand proping anything anymore :D

I was hoping for a 'why yes I have done that' story or a 1st person, 'I ask Rotax and they said...' but you don't always get what you want.

Did I ever tell you my proping story where I had my student drive me to the ER?]]>

I should mention that I have NO intention of hand proping anything anymore :D

I was hoping for a 'why yes I have done that' story or a 1st person, 'I ask Rotax and they said...' but you don't always get what you want.

Did I ever tell you my proping story where I had my student drive me to the ER?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-17T22:10:24-05:00 2018-02-17T22:10:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49666#p49666 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-18T08:16:23-05:00 2018-02-18T08:16:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49668#p49668
drseti wrote:Did it end with your student high-fouring you?


Cute.

But actually, it’s how he got the nickname “Lefty”! :shock:]]>
drseti wrote:Did it end with your student high-fouring you?


Cute.

But actually, it’s how he got the nickname “Lefty”! :shock:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by rgstubbsjr]]> 2018-02-18T10:53:21-05:00 2018-02-18T10:53:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49672#p49672 It's easier to hand prop a 77 year old Cub, and probably safer.]]> It's easier to hand prop a 77 year old Cub, and probably safer.]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-18T11:19:15-05:00 2018-02-18T11:19:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49674#p49674
FastEddieB wrote:
drseti wrote:Did it end with your student high-fouring you?


Cute.

But actually, it’s how he got the nickname “Lefty”! :shock:


No, just a strain to the rotator cuff. He had a Student Drivers license, so I considered charging him dual. Never driven a clutch before which kept my pain level up. At the ER, older couple backed into us... Quite a day.

Couple of weeks in a sling and I was back to propping that darn O-225 gain :)]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
drseti wrote:Did it end with your student high-fouring you?


Cute.

But actually, it’s how he got the nickname “Lefty”! :shock:


No, just a strain to the rotator cuff. He had a Student Drivers license, so I considered charging him dual. Never driven a clutch before which kept my pain level up. At the ER, older couple backed into us... Quite a day.

Couple of weeks in a sling and I was back to propping that darn O-225 gain :)]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-18T11:19:39-05:00 2018-02-18T11:19:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49675#p49675
rgstubbsjr wrote:I have personally done it. A 100hp with a 3 bladed prop, Maybe 4(?) times.
It's easier to hand prop a 77 year old Cub, and probably safer.


Thanks!]]>
rgstubbsjr wrote:I have personally done it. A 100hp with a 3 bladed prop, Maybe 4(?) times.
It's easier to hand prop a 77 year old Cub, and probably safer.


Thanks!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-18T12:21:24-05:00 2018-02-18T12:21:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49676#p49676
Jim Hardin wrote:
No, just a strain to the rotator cuff.


I see.

1) Was it your right rotator cuff?

2) Can we still call you Lefty?]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:
No, just a strain to the rotator cuff.


I see.

1) Was it your right rotator cuff?

2) Can we still call you Lefty?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hand Proping :: Reply by rgstubbsjr]]> 2018-02-18T15:11:08-05:00 2018-02-18T15:11:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5009&p=49679#p49679 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Landing on snow covered runway :: Reply by rgstubbsjr]]> 2018-02-18T10:30:29-05:00 2018-02-18T10:30:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4987&p=49670#p49670
]]>

]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Landing on snow covered runway :: Reply by joey4420]]> 2018-02-19T08:21:33-05:00 2018-02-19T08:21:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4987&p=49692#p49692
rgstubbsjr wrote:Landing on a snow\ice covered runway in a J3-85



Nice landing]]>
rgstubbsjr wrote:Landing on a snow\ice covered runway in a J3-85



Nice landing]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Landing on snow covered runway :: Reply by rgstubbsjr]]> 2018-02-20T18:08:41-05:00 2018-02-20T18:08:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4987&p=49766#p49766 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Hanging Up My Wings :: Author TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-26T22:17:12-05:00 2018-01-26T22:17:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49322#p49322
I have 4 or 5 hours left on my pre-paid account that I will use up in the next month or two. Then, it's on to other things. I have already given up sky diving, snow skiing/water skiing, drumming, drag racing, and now flying. It's probably time to spend some time with the wife doing some things that she enjoys. We will celebrate our 50th anniversary in August.

It's probably a good thing I backed out of the deal to purchase a SkyCatcher. My best friend has also quit flying and just sold his Mooney. It flew away last week to it's new home.]]>

I have 4 or 5 hours left on my pre-paid account that I will use up in the next month or two. Then, it's on to other things. I have already given up sky diving, snow skiing/water skiing, drumming, drag racing, and now flying. It's probably time to spend some time with the wife doing some things that she enjoys. We will celebrate our 50th anniversary in August.

It's probably a good thing I backed out of the deal to purchase a SkyCatcher. My best friend has also quit flying and just sold his Mooney. It flew away last week to it's new home.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-26T23:07:27-05:00 2018-01-26T23:07:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49323#p49323 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-26T23:48:20-05:00 2018-01-26T23:48:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49324#p49324
3Dreaming wrote:I had a customer who quitat either 70 or 75, but would treat himself annually to a one hour flight with an instructor on his birthday.

Or get a flight review every birthday in case I decide to fly again??]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I had a customer who quitat either 70 or 75, but would treat himself annually to a one hour flight with an instructor on his birthday.

Or get a flight review every birthday in case I decide to fly again??]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-01-27T06:41:58-05:00 2018-01-27T06:41:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49325#p49325

I have self grounded for the moment while I work my way through my second round of lung cancer. (Agent Orange = the gift that keeps on giving) But I do have a Flight Review scheduled as well a my first helicopter lesson!]]>


I have self grounded for the moment while I work my way through my second round of lung cancer. (Agent Orange = the gift that keeps on giving) But I do have a Flight Review scheduled as well a my first helicopter lesson!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-27T06:49:38-05:00 2018-01-27T06:49:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49326#p49326
Good luck! You do have a lot of aviation memories to reflect back upon.]]>

Good luck! You do have a lot of aviation memories to reflect back upon.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-27T09:14:54-05:00 2018-01-27T09:14:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49327#p49327 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-01-27T10:05:21-05:00 2018-01-27T10:05:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49328#p49328
AOPA Air Safety Institute has an on-line course, Aging Gracefully, Flying Safely, that I encourage you to take before you call it quits. It takes less than an hour and presents the issues related to safe flying as we get older along with ways to compensate for the inevitable results of aging. You just might change your mind. One of the points made in the course is that flying frequently helps you keep your edge.

https://flash.aopa.org/asf/aginggracefully/swf/flash.cfm?]]>

AOPA Air Safety Institute has an on-line course, Aging Gracefully, Flying Safely, that I encourage you to take before you call it quits. It takes less than an hour and presents the issues related to safe flying as we get older along with ways to compensate for the inevitable results of aging. You just might change your mind. One of the points made in the course is that flying frequently helps you keep your edge.

https://flash.aopa.org/asf/aginggracefully/swf/flash.cfm?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-27T11:11:29-05:00 2018-01-27T11:11:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49329#p49329
As a side note to age and flying. I remember a story about Steve Wittman. For his 90th birthday he performed a low level aerobatic routine in his V-Witts racer for friends and family who had gathered to celebrate his birthday. That was a pretty amazing feat by my standards.]]>

As a side note to age and flying. I remember a story about Steve Wittman. For his 90th birthday he performed a low level aerobatic routine in his V-Witts racer for friends and family who had gathered to celebrate his birthday. That was a pretty amazing feat by my standards.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T12:48:25-05:00 2018-01-27T12:48:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49331#p49331
I'll stop for now and see how things go and how I feel about it in a year or so. We will have the mortgage paid off before long that will also make a huge difference. Who knows, I may be back with an RV12 and a hanger.]]>

I'll stop for now and see how things go and how I feel about it in a year or so. We will have the mortgage paid off before long that will also make a huge difference. Who knows, I may be back with an RV12 and a hanger.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-01-27T17:11:03-05:00 2018-01-27T17:11:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49341#p49341
Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!]]>

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T17:23:40-05:00 2018-01-27T17:23:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49342#p49342
Nomore767 wrote:Perhaps this would be a perfect time to run for office?!

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!

Maybe if I lived in the Northeast.]]>
Nomore767 wrote:Perhaps this would be a perfect time to run for office?!

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!

Maybe if I lived in the Northeast.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-01-27T18:51:00-05:00 2018-01-27T18:51:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49344#p49344
TimTaylor wrote:Then, it's on to other things. I have already given up sky diving, snow skiing/water skiing, drumming, drag racing,


Didn't get around to Running with the Bulls, lion taming, or jumping the snake river on a motorcycle?]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Then, it's on to other things. I have already given up sky diving, snow skiing/water skiing, drumming, drag racing,


Didn't get around to Running with the Bulls, lion taming, or jumping the snake river on a motorcycle?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-27T18:57:19-05:00 2018-01-27T18:57:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49345#p49345
TimTaylor wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Perhaps this would be a perfect time to run for office?!

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!

Maybe if I lived in the Northeast.


Move here, and I'll help run your campaign.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Perhaps this would be a perfect time to run for office?!

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!

Maybe if I lived in the Northeast.


Move here, and I'll help run your campaign.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T18:58:56-05:00 2018-01-27T19:21:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49346#p49346
WDD wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Then, it's on to other things. I have already given up sky diving, snow skiing/water skiing, drumming, drag racing,


Didn't get around to Running with the Bulls, lion taming, or jumping the snake river on a motorcycle?

I didn't, but my son ran with the bulls. He pretty much traveled the world and spent 2 years in Sydney, AU getting his MBA. That's where $72,000 of my airplane money went. However, although it was not a loan, he ended up paying me back every penny over about 10 years.]]>
WDD wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Then, it's on to other things. I have already given up sky diving, snow skiing/water skiing, drumming, drag racing,


Didn't get around to Running with the Bulls, lion taming, or jumping the snake river on a motorcycle?

I didn't, but my son ran with the bulls. He pretty much traveled the world and spent 2 years in Sydney, AU getting his MBA. That's where $72,000 of my airplane money went. However, although it was not a loan, he ended up paying me back every penny over about 10 years.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T19:01:54-05:00 2018-01-27T19:01:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49347#p49347
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Perhaps this would be a perfect time to run for office?!

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!

Maybe if I lived in the Northeast.


Move here, and I'll help run your campaign.

That sounds good. I already sent Bernie my proposed income tax plan.]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Perhaps this would be a perfect time to run for office?!

Senator Tim Taylor (GA) has a certain ring to it!

Maybe if I lived in the Northeast.


Move here, and I'll help run your campaign.

That sounds good. I already sent Bernie my proposed income tax plan.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-27T21:47:34-05:00 2018-01-27T21:47:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49353#p49353
Remos will always feel a bit special for me since that’s the plane I learned to fly in ... but I got a feeling you preferred Cessna skycatcher ..right ?]]>

Remos will always feel a bit special for me since that’s the plane I learned to fly in ... but I got a feeling you preferred Cessna skycatcher ..right ?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T22:22:59-05:00 2018-01-27T22:22:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49357#p49357
Warmi wrote:Who is gonna fly that rental Remos now, heh ?

Remos will always feel a bit special for me since that’s the plane I learned to fly in ... but I got a feeling you preferred Cessna skycatcher ..right ?

Without a doubt, I much prefer the C162 over the Remos GX. The C162 feels like an airplane while the Remos GX feels like a toy. That said, I enjoyed flying each of them very much.

I have logged time in 41 makes and/or models of light single and multi-engine airplanes. I loved every minute of it.]]>
Warmi wrote:Who is gonna fly that rental Remos now, heh ?

Remos will always feel a bit special for me since that’s the plane I learned to fly in ... but I got a feeling you preferred Cessna skycatcher ..right ?

Without a doubt, I much prefer the C162 over the Remos GX. The C162 feels like an airplane while the Remos GX feels like a toy. That said, I enjoyed flying each of them very much.

I have logged time in 41 makes and/or models of light single and multi-engine airplanes. I loved every minute of it.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-21T12:55:26-05:00 2018-02-21T12:58:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49791#p49791 https://ufopilots.org/ You have to be legal PIC on or after your 80th birthday. If I am not able, I won't push it, but it's a goal I'm striving for.
P.S. They're always needing new members. :roll:]]>
https://ufopilots.org/ You have to be legal PIC on or after your 80th birthday. If I am not able, I won't push it, but it's a goal I'm striving for.
P.S. They're always needing new members. :roll:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T12:58:21-05:00 2018-02-21T12:58:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49793#p49793 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Yoda]]> 2018-02-21T12:59:26-05:00 2018-02-21T12:59:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49794#p49794
drseti wrote:I only have two years on you, Yoda - but I'm counting down toward the same goal.


Where's the "LIKE" button? :)]]>
drseti wrote:I only have two years on you, Yoda - but I'm counting down toward the same goal.


Where's the "LIKE" button? :)]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T13:02:16-05:00 2018-02-21T13:02:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49795#p49795
Yoda wrote:P.S. They're always needing new members. :roll:


That's because their members keep aging out of the system. Funny how that works.]]>
Yoda wrote:P.S. They're always needing new members. :roll:


That's because their members keep aging out of the system. Funny how that works.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-21T13:02:50-05:00 2018-02-21T13:02:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49796#p49796 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-22T11:32:05-05:00 2018-02-22T11:32:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49813#p49813
Is that money coming from the Nigerian Prince you responded to :P]]>

Is that money coming from the Nigerian Prince you responded to :P]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-22T13:05:44-05:00 2018-02-22T13:05:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=49814#p49814
Jim Hardin wrote:Tim: Hope you continue having fun, sometimes you have to work at it a little.

Is that money coming from the Nigerian Prince you responded to :P

Yes. I sent him all my information and I'm just waiting for him to deposit the funds in my account. :roll:]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:Tim: Hope you continue having fun, sometimes you have to work at it a little.

Is that money coming from the Nigerian Prince you responded to :P

Yes. I sent him all my information and I'm just waiting for him to deposit the funds in my account. :roll:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: I need a ruling :: Author foresterpoole]]> 2018-02-23T22:00:38-05:00 2018-02-23T22:00:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5018&p=49833#p49833 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: I need a ruling :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-23T22:20:30-05:00 2018-02-23T22:20:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5018&p=49834#p49834
All jest aside, it's not Stolen Valor to wear an insigna-less A2 in honor of those who served.]]>

All jest aside, it's not Stolen Valor to wear an insigna-less A2 in honor of those who served.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Remos oil hoses diameter - Rotax requires 11 mm :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-01-25T15:06:41-05:00 2018-01-25T15:06:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4986&p=49300#p49300 Additionally, the postaccident engine disassembly revealed ample lubrication throughout the engine, and there was no evidence of oil starvation.


Doesn't sound like the broken pin caused oil starvation and engine failure.]]>
Additionally, the postaccident engine disassembly revealed ample lubrication throughout the engine, and there was no evidence of oil starvation.


Doesn't sound like the broken pin caused oil starvation and engine failure.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Remos oil hoses diameter - Rotax requires 11 mm :: Reply by flightwriter]]> 2018-01-27T12:32:51-05:00 2018-01-27T12:32:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4986&p=49330#p49330
Seems to me that could very well be true, but that "pulsing" as described by NTSB could still exist within those limits and be detrimental to the engine. Still, it doesn't appear to have been causal in this accident.]]>

Seems to me that could very well be true, but that "pulsing" as described by NTSB could still exist within those limits and be detrimental to the engine. Still, it doesn't appear to have been causal in this accident.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: LOA Survey for EVERYONE :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-01-25T15:00:28-05:00 2018-01-25T15:00:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4989&p=49299#p49299
To make it easier for the person giving responses, and to make it much easier for you analyze the data, put the survey into the free version of "Survey Monkey". A simple survey like this should fit right in - you get up to 10 questions on the free version.

You can get a web link that you can give to people to access. You can also have it run on a tablet, so if you want to do a survey "in person", you can simply record their answers on your tablet while they give you their answers.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/pricing/

I do this for a living. If you want some help or other "unsolicited advice" (LOL), lmk. THANKS!]]>

To make it easier for the person giving responses, and to make it much easier for you analyze the data, put the survey into the free version of "Survey Monkey". A simple survey like this should fit right in - you get up to 10 questions on the free version.

You can get a web link that you can give to people to access. You can also have it run on a tablet, so if you want to do a survey "in person", you can simply record their answers on your tablet while they give you their answers.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/pricing/

I do this for a living. If you want some help or other "unsolicited advice" (LOL), lmk. THANKS!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: LOA Survey for EVERYONE :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-01-31T18:29:52-05:00 2018-01-31T18:29:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4989&p=49385#p49385
WDD wrote:Hey - just a suggestion.

To make it easier for the person giving responses, and to make it much easier for you analyze the data, put the survey into the free version of "Survey Monkey". A simple survey like this should fit right in - you get up to 10 questions on the free version.


Thanks for the info, this could be useful in the future.

And thanks to everyone who replied here in the open forum and sent me private messages. I had a great response and collected a lot of data for my research.

Feel free to still respond if you haven't already.]]>
WDD wrote:Hey - just a suggestion.

To make it easier for the person giving responses, and to make it much easier for you analyze the data, put the survey into the free version of "Survey Monkey". A simple survey like this should fit right in - you get up to 10 questions on the free version.


Thanks for the info, this could be useful in the future.

And thanks to everyone who replied here in the open forum and sent me private messages. I had a great response and collected a lot of data for my research.

Feel free to still respond if you haven't already.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: LOA Survey for EVERYONE :: Reply by hook_dupin]]> 2018-02-01T23:29:13-05:00 2018-02-01T23:29:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4989&p=49472#p49472
I once asked Legend Cub if they'd issue a LOA for a project AL-3 I was going to take on.

They said "We'll never issue a LOA for that. The only way that stays S-SLA is if we get it on our factory jig. We recommend you move it to E-LSA."]]>

I once asked Legend Cub if they'd issue a LOA for a project AL-3 I was going to take on.

They said "We'll never issue a LOA for that. The only way that stays S-SLA is if we get it on our factory jig. We recommend you move it to E-LSA."]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Skycatcher par deux :: Author c162pilot]]> 2018-01-31T15:24:41-05:00 2018-01-31T15:24:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49382#p49382 Image
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/inexpensive-clean-sheet-lsa-fromdynon/#.WnIlJiOZPOQ
http://vashonaircraft.com]]>
Image
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/inexpensive-clean-sheet-lsa-fromdynon/#.WnIlJiOZPOQ
http://vashonaircraft.com]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-31T16:25:27-05:00 2018-01-31T16:25:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49383#p49383
With 50 k Rotax engines out there and relatively decent support in terms of servicing etc , why even bother with 1940s technology ?]]>

With 50 k Rotax engines out there and relatively decent support in terms of servicing etc , why even bother with 1940s technology ?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-31T20:35:36-05:00 2018-01-31T20:38:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49387#p49387 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-31T20:37:00-05:00 2018-01-31T20:37:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49388#p49388
TimTaylor wrote:I prefer Continental over Rotax any day.

Is there any particular reason why more than just cause that’s the only thing you re used to ?]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I prefer Continental over Rotax any day.

Is there any particular reason why more than just cause that’s the only thing you re used to ?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-31T20:39:37-05:00 2018-01-31T20:39:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49389#p49389
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I prefer Continental over Rotax any day.

Is there any particular reason why more than just cause that’s the only thing you re used to ?

I'm used to both.]]>
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I prefer Continental over Rotax any day.

Is there any particular reason why more than just cause that’s the only thing you re used to ?

I'm used to both.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-31T20:55:06-05:00 2018-01-31T20:55:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49390#p49390
I think reliability in comparable sizes is comparable. Each has strong and weak points. The ROTAX can come across as quirky if most of your prior experience is in the “legacy” brands.

Personally, I’ve come to slightly prefer the ROTAX. A large part is if you’re paying for the maintenance, I think the ROTAX is more economical.

But there’s no accounting for taste!]]>

I think reliability in comparable sizes is comparable. Each has strong and weak points. The ROTAX can come across as quirky if most of your prior experience is in the “legacy” brands.

Personally, I’ve come to slightly prefer the ROTAX. A large part is if you’re paying for the maintenance, I think the ROTAX is more economical.

But there’s no accounting for taste!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-31T21:00:26-05:00 2018-01-31T21:00:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49391#p49391
Even If i were to have 5000 problem free hours in each it would still be statistically irrelevant given the number of engines/decades of experience out there.]]>

Even If i were to have 5000 problem free hours in each it would still be statistically irrelevant given the number of engines/decades of experience out there.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-31T21:13:43-05:00 2018-01-31T21:13:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49392#p49392
FastEddieB wrote:I’ve owned planes with Continentals, Lycomings, and now a ROTAX.

I think reliability in comparable sizes is comparable. Each has strong and weak points. The ROTAX can come across as quirky if most of your prior experience is in the “legacy” brands.

Personally, I’ve come to slightly prefer the ROTAX. A large part is if you’re paying for the maintenance, I think the ROTAX is more economical.

But there’s no accounting for taste!


It is clear to me that both engines are just as reliable if maintained well. My “40s technology” comment was based on the fact that rotax has certain undeniable advantages due to being more modern design and as such is much better fit for small and light planes.
Frankly, the only reason I would even consider Continental 200 for an LSA if there was no rotax expertise available within reasonable travel distance.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I’ve owned planes with Continentals, Lycomings, and now a ROTAX.

I think reliability in comparable sizes is comparable. Each has strong and weak points. The ROTAX can come across as quirky if most of your prior experience is in the “legacy” brands.

Personally, I’ve come to slightly prefer the ROTAX. A large part is if you’re paying for the maintenance, I think the ROTAX is more economical.

But there’s no accounting for taste!


It is clear to me that both engines are just as reliable if maintained well. My “40s technology” comment was based on the fact that rotax has certain undeniable advantages due to being more modern design and as such is much better fit for small and light planes.
Frankly, the only reason I would even consider Continental 200 for an LSA if there was no rotax expertise available within reasonable travel distance.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-31T22:31:57-05:00 2018-01-31T22:31:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49393#p49393 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-01-31T23:30:52-05:00 2018-01-31T23:30:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49394#p49394
The Feb issue of Flying has a cover picture and an article about the Glasair SLSA Merlin a model almost identical to the SkyCatcher but with all the “fixes” such as Rotax, Dynon SkyView, composite structure, BRS option etc
Having flown the SkyCatcher and at one time was looking at buying one the Merlin intrigued me and I’ve followed its developmental progress.
The base price of $150k is comparable with the SkyCatcher but the BRS option adds $10k and 35lbs and IFR another$10k. I think the Merlin is aimed at flight school fleets as well as individual owners.
Comparing the SLSA I own now it doesn’t offer any real beneficial difference and is somewhat heavier and a lot more $$ as well as being a few it’s slower, according to the article. Vans is also offering the RV-12iS SLSA at a similar price point.The extra weight of the Rotax Sport engine (iS) still gives a lower empty weight.

Interesting to compare the Merlin to the Ranger. Less expensive, all metal, and no strut. Don’t know if it has a “stoke” control stick.
Also interesting that the design is similar to the SkyCatcher so Cessna must have done something right. I could never figure out why the didn’t do what Glasair have done which is basically upgrade the design and “fix” some things some people complained about. I guess they wanted to focus on biz-jets.]]>

The Feb issue of Flying has a cover picture and an article about the Glasair SLSA Merlin a model almost identical to the SkyCatcher but with all the “fixes” such as Rotax, Dynon SkyView, composite structure, BRS option etc
Having flown the SkyCatcher and at one time was looking at buying one the Merlin intrigued me and I’ve followed its developmental progress.
The base price of $150k is comparable with the SkyCatcher but the BRS option adds $10k and 35lbs and IFR another$10k. I think the Merlin is aimed at flight school fleets as well as individual owners.
Comparing the SLSA I own now it doesn’t offer any real beneficial difference and is somewhat heavier and a lot more $$ as well as being a few it’s slower, according to the article. Vans is also offering the RV-12iS SLSA at a similar price point.The extra weight of the Rotax Sport engine (iS) still gives a lower empty weight.

Interesting to compare the Merlin to the Ranger. Less expensive, all metal, and no strut. Don’t know if it has a “stoke” control stick.
Also interesting that the design is similar to the SkyCatcher so Cessna must have done something right. I could never figure out why the didn’t do what Glasair have done which is basically upgrade the design and “fix” some things some people complained about. I guess they wanted to focus on biz-jets.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-31T23:41:23-05:00 2018-01-31T23:41:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49395#p49395 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T06:38:17-05:00 2018-02-01T06:38:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49397#p49397
Nomore767 wrote:Interesting that the Ranger is (for now) priced under $100k which is what many aspiring LSA customers originally wanted.


I guess I was naive, but back in 2006 when I first began contemplating the new Light Sport classification, I was envisioning entry-level LSA’s closer to $50k or $60k. I thought if the price was comparable to a new Lexus, let’s say, it would open up a whole new market of “impulse buyers”. Lots of recreational vehicles, power boats and the like selling in that bracket with little price resistance.

My nicely but not extravagantly equipped 2007 Sky Arrow was $75.5k, and pushed the limits on what I wanted to spend at the time. A new one now is about twice that.

Image

But the market spoke. I thought things like 3 panel glass displays, 3-axis trims, autopilots and the like all took away from the simplicity Light Sport promised. But that’s apparently what sells.

Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!]]>
Nomore767 wrote:Interesting that the Ranger is (for now) priced under $100k which is what many aspiring LSA customers originally wanted.


I guess I was naive, but back in 2006 when I first began contemplating the new Light Sport classification, I was envisioning entry-level LSA’s closer to $50k or $60k. I thought if the price was comparable to a new Lexus, let’s say, it would open up a whole new market of “impulse buyers”. Lots of recreational vehicles, power boats and the like selling in that bracket with little price resistance.

My nicely but not extravagantly equipped 2007 Sky Arrow was $75.5k, and pushed the limits on what I wanted to spend at the time. A new one now is about twice that.

Image

But the market spoke. I thought things like 3 panel glass displays, 3-axis trims, autopilots and the like all took away from the simplicity Light Sport promised. But that’s apparently what sells.

Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-02-01T08:49:47-05:00 2018-02-01T08:49:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49400#p49400
TimTaylor wrote:A stoke control stick is a non-issue. It's actually preferable over a regular stick to me because it's easier to get in and out of the airplane. Another reason I prefer the SkyCatcher over the Remos GX. I also prefer metal over plastic.


Agree. Just think it’s interesting that the Merlin is almost identical to the SkyCatcher in most respects (including the stoke) but with many “refinements” over the Cessna. Their SLSA could have been much different but it’s almost like they got a SkyCatcher and thought how can we improve this really nice SLSA, and they did.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:A stoke control stick is a non-issue. It's actually preferable over a regular stick to me because it's easier to get in and out of the airplane. Another reason I prefer the SkyCatcher over the Remos GX. I also prefer metal over plastic.


Agree. Just think it’s interesting that the Merlin is almost identical to the SkyCatcher in most respects (including the stoke) but with many “refinements” over the Cessna. Their SLSA could have been much different but it’s almost like they got a SkyCatcher and thought how can we improve this really nice SLSA, and they did.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-02-01T09:00:04-05:00 2018-02-01T09:00:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49403#p49403 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T10:21:27-05:00 2018-02-01T10:21:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49405#p49405
FastEddieB wrote:
Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!


We have that, Eddie. It's called Part 103.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!


We have that, Eddie. It's called Part 103.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-01T10:22:50-05:00 2018-02-01T10:22:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49406#p49406 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T11:04:46-05:00 2018-02-01T11:04:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49413#p49413
Nomore767 wrote:The !ight Sport ‘market’ is quite fickle. Folks say what they want but buy what they think they need. They say they want it all for $60k but then choose it and jack it up with all sorts of options and accessories. Then they complain about the weight increase and the price increase.


An anecdote I may have shared before...

I wanted a fairly bare-bones Light Sport. The Sky Arrow came with a Dynon D10A PFD. I said I didn’t need that, and the sales guy said it was “only 27”. I suggested a $27,000 PFD in a Light Sport was silly. (Remember I was coming from the Cirrus world). He responded, “No, that’s 27 hundred!”. DOH! Just an order of magnitude difference! Truth be told, outfitting the plane with an electric attitude indicator and a turn coordinator would have been as much or more as that little Dynon, which does a lot more.

With my fairly spartan panel and a Garmin 496 in an AirGizmo mount, there’s zero problem navigating anywhere in th US. The added cost, weight and complexity of a second, or third (!) glass panel seems to me almost totally superfluous, especially in this age of iPads and iPhones running aviation apps.

But I’ll stipulate I appear to be in the minority!]]>
Nomore767 wrote:The !ight Sport ‘market’ is quite fickle. Folks say what they want but buy what they think they need. They say they want it all for $60k but then choose it and jack it up with all sorts of options and accessories. Then they complain about the weight increase and the price increase.


An anecdote I may have shared before...

I wanted a fairly bare-bones Light Sport. The Sky Arrow came with a Dynon D10A PFD. I said I didn’t need that, and the sales guy said it was “only 27”. I suggested a $27,000 PFD in a Light Sport was silly. (Remember I was coming from the Cirrus world). He responded, “No, that’s 27 hundred!”. DOH! Just an order of magnitude difference! Truth be told, outfitting the plane with an electric attitude indicator and a turn coordinator would have been as much or more as that little Dynon, which does a lot more.

With my fairly spartan panel and a Garmin 496 in an AirGizmo mount, there’s zero problem navigating anywhere in th US. The added cost, weight and complexity of a second, or third (!) glass panel seems to me almost totally superfluous, especially in this age of iPads and iPhones running aviation apps.

But I’ll stipulate I appear to be in the minority!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T11:20:57-05:00 2018-02-01T11:20:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49415#p49415
I went with the dual Dynons.]]>

I went with the dual Dynons.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-01T13:03:59-05:00 2018-02-01T13:03:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49425#p49425
FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Interesting that the Ranger is (for now) priced under $100k which is what many aspiring LSA customers originally wanted.


I guess I was naive, but back in 2006 when I first began contemplating the new Light Sport classification, I was envisioning entry-level LSA’s closer to $50k or $60k. I thought if the price was comparable to a new Lexus, let’s say, it would open up a whole new market of “impulse buyers”. Lots of recreational vehicles, power boats and the like selling in that bracket with little price resistance.

Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!


To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.

And maybe not a new Light Sport category, but just raise the weight limits up from 1320 to 2000 or so. Jaburi's 250's are capable of more than that. Heck, in Australia they are 4 place planes.

Heck, given that those on the board have said a light sport is harder to fly than a 172, just take the weigh limit up to 3000 lbs and 200 hp.

But, back to reality...........]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:Interesting that the Ranger is (for now) priced under $100k which is what many aspiring LSA customers originally wanted.


I guess I was naive, but back in 2006 when I first began contemplating the new Light Sport classification, I was envisioning entry-level LSA’s closer to $50k or $60k. I thought if the price was comparable to a new Lexus, let’s say, it would open up a whole new market of “impulse buyers”. Lots of recreational vehicles, power boats and the like selling in that bracket with little price resistance.

Maybe we need a new Light Light Sport category!


To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.

And maybe not a new Light Sport category, but just raise the weight limits up from 1320 to 2000 or so. Jaburi's 250's are capable of more than that. Heck, in Australia they are 4 place planes.

Heck, given that those on the board have said a light sport is harder to fly than a 172, just take the weigh limit up to 3000 lbs and 200 hp.

But, back to reality...........]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-02-01T15:32:55-05:00 2018-02-01T15:32:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49441#p49441
You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?]]>

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-01T15:57:34-05:00 2018-02-01T15:57:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49443#p49443
Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?



IDK - what is "quick"? It is after all a fairly expensive purchase (at least it is to me).

Compared to the larger planes, there are relatively fewer number in the inventory for sale, and relatively fewer buyers (Sport vs GA pilots). So sales velocity is just going to be slow.

Reading through all of the posts on this forum, I've come to realize a few things:
1) New vs used prices have a really wide range - tons of depreciation
2) Planes seem to last for a long, long time. Lots of Cessna's from 50 years ago still around.
3) I was surprised that building from a kit is so expensive, and that it is more than buying a good used plane.
4) A few bad choices really kill the value of your plane. Bad or really unique paint costs as much as a more generally acceptable paint scheme, but kills the value of the plane. Putting a Viking engine costs as much as a Rotax, but it will drive the re sale down.]]>
Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?



IDK - what is "quick"? It is after all a fairly expensive purchase (at least it is to me).

Compared to the larger planes, there are relatively fewer number in the inventory for sale, and relatively fewer buyers (Sport vs GA pilots). So sales velocity is just going to be slow.

Reading through all of the posts on this forum, I've come to realize a few things:
1) New vs used prices have a really wide range - tons of depreciation
2) Planes seem to last for a long, long time. Lots of Cessna's from 50 years ago still around.
3) I was surprised that building from a kit is so expensive, and that it is more than buying a good used plane.
4) A few bad choices really kill the value of your plane. Bad or really unique paint costs as much as a more generally acceptable paint scheme, but kills the value of the plane. Putting a Viking engine costs as much as a Rotax, but it will drive the re sale down.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-01T16:09:52-05:00 2018-02-01T16:09:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49444#p49444
FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:The !ight Sport ‘market’ is quite fickle. Folks say what they want but buy what they think they need. They say they want it all for $60k but then choose it and jack it up with all sorts of options and accessories. Then they complain about the weight increase and the price increase.


An anecdote I may have shared before...

I wanted a fairly bare-bones Light Sport. The Sky Arrow came with a Dynon D10A PFD. I said I didn’t need that, and the sales guy said it was “only 27”. I suggested a $27,000 PFD in a Light Sport was silly. (Remember I was coming from the Cirrus world). He responded, “No, that’s 27 hundred!”. DOH! Just an order of magnitude difference! Truth be told, outfitting the plane with an electric attitude indicator and a turn coordinator would have been as much or more as that little Dynon, which does a lot more.

With my fairly spartan panel and a Garmin 496 in an AirGizmo mount, there’s zero problem navigating anywhere in th US. The added cost, weight and complexity of a second, or third (!) glass panel seems to me almost totally superfluous, especially in this age of iPads and iPhones running aviation apps.

But I’ll stipulate I appear to be in the minority!


Sorry for the hijack, Eddie, did you get my email? Re: the ne Sky Arrow Distributor. If I remember, it’s Low Country Aviation, in South Carolina.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Nomore767 wrote:The !ight Sport ‘market’ is quite fickle. Folks say what they want but buy what they think they need. They say they want it all for $60k but then choose it and jack it up with all sorts of options and accessories. Then they complain about the weight increase and the price increase.


An anecdote I may have shared before...

I wanted a fairly bare-bones Light Sport. The Sky Arrow came with a Dynon D10A PFD. I said I didn’t need that, and the sales guy said it was “only 27”. I suggested a $27,000 PFD in a Light Sport was silly. (Remember I was coming from the Cirrus world). He responded, “No, that’s 27 hundred!”. DOH! Just an order of magnitude difference! Truth be told, outfitting the plane with an electric attitude indicator and a turn coordinator would have been as much or more as that little Dynon, which does a lot more.

With my fairly spartan panel and a Garmin 496 in an AirGizmo mount, there’s zero problem navigating anywhere in th US. The added cost, weight and complexity of a second, or third (!) glass panel seems to me almost totally superfluous, especially in this age of iPads and iPhones running aviation apps.

But I’ll stipulate I appear to be in the minority!


Sorry for the hijack, Eddie, did you get my email? Re: the ne Sky Arrow Distributor. If I remember, it’s Low Country Aviation, in South Carolina.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-01T16:11:43-05:00 2018-02-01T16:11:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49445#p49445
Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?


Had a nice -12 for sale on the VAN’s forum a few days ago, asking $69k.]]>
Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?


Had a nice -12 for sale on the VAN’s forum a few days ago, asking $69k.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-02-01T16:30:58-05:00 2018-02-01T16:30:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49446#p49446
Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?



Point being that folks were complaining about the cost of buying an LSA. They said when the rule came out that they were going to be “affordable” and make flying more accessible to more aspiring pilots.
As you say there are RV-12s for sale in the $60-70 range likely kit builds. But buyers seem hesitant because...?
They can buy, repaint, equip to suit themselves at considerable savings compared to buying new.
There are a large amount of manufacturers offering LSAs which is surprising since the buying/renting market is fairly small. Yet they keep offering them.
Glasair is about 2 years behind its original schedule for the Merlin and has had cooling and weight issues. It has yet to deliver one despite being on the cover of Flying magazine which stated its $150k.
So they must think there’s a market for it, even if it’s a fickle market.

If folks can’t afford them why do they sell them? If they’re too expensive why don’t they make them cheaper? Why do folks say they’re too much money and simply want basic VFR affordable flying on a DL and then buy top of the line with all the options and then suggest higher weights, night flying and IFR all of which are contrary to the light sport rule?]]>
Nomore767 wrote:'To me, looks like you can get an LSA for $60k or so. A nice used RV12, CTSW, etc. goes for that amount.'

You can, and this is what they said they wanted. But they don't sell quickly.....because...?



Point being that folks were complaining about the cost of buying an LSA. They said when the rule came out that they were going to be “affordable” and make flying more accessible to more aspiring pilots.
As you say there are RV-12s for sale in the $60-70 range likely kit builds. But buyers seem hesitant because...?
They can buy, repaint, equip to suit themselves at considerable savings compared to buying new.
There are a large amount of manufacturers offering LSAs which is surprising since the buying/renting market is fairly small. Yet they keep offering them.
Glasair is about 2 years behind its original schedule for the Merlin and has had cooling and weight issues. It has yet to deliver one despite being on the cover of Flying magazine which stated its $150k.
So they must think there’s a market for it, even if it’s a fickle market.

If folks can’t afford them why do they sell them? If they’re too expensive why don’t they make them cheaper? Why do folks say they’re too much money and simply want basic VFR affordable flying on a DL and then buy top of the line with all the options and then suggest higher weights, night flying and IFR all of which are contrary to the light sport rule?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-01T17:03:22-05:00 2018-02-01T17:03:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49448#p49448
My guess is that the frame of reference isn't the cost of new plane. It's probably the cost of a really nice car.

Can a company make enough selling new planes? Potentially. Some will value a new plane enough that they will pay that price. Hopefully "some" is "enough". And if the manufacture can innovate and keep their costs down (not Cessna).

Got a feeling the price of a new plane is somewhat inelastic. You'll maximize profits by keeping prices high. Now, it would be a great study to see if that was right or wrong. Could Vans maximize profits if they cut the kit prices in half for example and made it up on volume? Just fun to speculate .....]]>

My guess is that the frame of reference isn't the cost of new plane. It's probably the cost of a really nice car.

Can a company make enough selling new planes? Potentially. Some will value a new plane enough that they will pay that price. Hopefully "some" is "enough". And if the manufacture can innovate and keep their costs down (not Cessna).

Got a feeling the price of a new plane is somewhat inelastic. You'll maximize profits by keeping prices high. Now, it would be a great study to see if that was right or wrong. Could Vans maximize profits if they cut the kit prices in half for example and made it up on volume? Just fun to speculate .....]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-02-01T17:25:00-05:00 2018-02-01T17:25:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49451#p49451 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T17:49:38-05:00 2018-02-01T17:49:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49456#p49456 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-02-01T18:05:10-05:00 2018-02-01T18:05:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49459#p49459
drseti wrote:Most of the successful SLSA models have a useful load right around 550 pounds. I certainly wouldn't want significantly less than that, which is why I've never seriously considered the Skycatcher.


Exactly....my RV-12 SLSA is has 765lbs empty weight so 555lbs useful load. This is also a ‘heavy all metal airplane’ :mrgreen:]]>
drseti wrote:Most of the successful SLSA models have a useful load right around 550 pounds. I certainly wouldn't want significantly less than that, which is why I've never seriously considered the Skycatcher.


Exactly....my RV-12 SLSA is has 765lbs empty weight so 555lbs useful load. This is also a ‘heavy all metal airplane’ :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-01T18:10:57-05:00 2018-02-01T18:10:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49461#p49461 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T18:14:55-05:00 2018-02-01T18:14:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49462#p49462 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-01T18:22:29-05:00 2018-02-01T18:22:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49464#p49464 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-02-01T18:53:43-05:00 2018-02-01T18:53:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49465#p49465
Warmi wrote:Sting S4 at 840 with 480 usefull ,that’s with BRS and autopilot but with only basic glass panel.

Pretty good example of the plumping of the LSA's. My Sting S3 comes in at 804lbs with all the wizbangs I could have at the time along with upgrades over the last 10 years (Dual Dynons, Garmin 795, 2 axis AP, ADS-B in and ADS-B out). The 516 lb useful load works well for MY mission -- me and my wife come in at 330lbs, full fuel is 132lbs (22 gallons -- no extended range tanks nor did I want them) and ~50lbs worth of stuff. This config gives me 21.5 usable gallons which is conservatively 3:45 of range with 45 minutes reserve.]]>
Warmi wrote:Sting S4 at 840 with 480 usefull ,that’s with BRS and autopilot but with only basic glass panel.

Pretty good example of the plumping of the LSA's. My Sting S3 comes in at 804lbs with all the wizbangs I could have at the time along with upgrades over the last 10 years (Dual Dynons, Garmin 795, 2 axis AP, ADS-B in and ADS-B out). The 516 lb useful load works well for MY mission -- me and my wife come in at 330lbs, full fuel is 132lbs (22 gallons -- no extended range tanks nor did I want them) and ~50lbs worth of stuff. This config gives me 21.5 usable gallons which is conservatively 3:45 of range with 45 minutes reserve.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-01T18:59:10-05:00 2018-02-01T18:59:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49466#p49466 :D]]> :D]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T19:10:12-05:00 2018-02-01T19:10:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49467#p49467 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-01T19:15:42-05:00 2018-02-01T19:15:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49468#p49468
Image]]>

Image]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Skycatcher par deux :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-03T10:07:10-05:00 2018-02-03T10:07:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5000&p=49507#p49507 http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/Airc ... 131VR.shtm
I personally can't imagine why anyone would want to enter the LSA market at this time. So many good choices, none cheap. Not a real vibrant market either. But, like they say, if you don't try, you won't fly.]]>
http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/Airc ... 131VR.shtm
I personally can't imagine why anyone would want to enter the LSA market at this time. So many good choices, none cheap. Not a real vibrant market either. But, like they say, if you don't try, you won't fly.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Author pjcampbell]]> 2018-02-06T18:32:49-05:00 2018-02-06T18:32:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49559#p49559 https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N72TE

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... 13511&if=1

Seems like this has been up there on controller.com for years.

Not sure if this 912ULS's TBO is 1500 or 2000, - thought that it was either 2000 or can be extended with some "minor" work?]]>
https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N72TE

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... 13511&if=1

Seems like this has been up there on controller.com for years.

Not sure if this 912ULS's TBO is 1500 or 2000, - thought that it was either 2000 or can be extended with some "minor" work?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-06T18:54:14-05:00 2018-02-06T18:54:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49562#p49562 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T18:59:35-05:00 2018-02-06T18:59:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49563#p49563 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T20:00:35-05:00 2018-02-06T20:00:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49568#p49568 some earlier Rotax 912 ULS engines can be upgraded to 2000 hours. The eligibility is not obvious from the engine s/n, but is actually a function of the crankcase s/n. This will be covered in my upcoming EAA Webinar "What TBO Really Means," airing the evening of 14 March 2018. You can register at http://eaa.org.webinars]]> some earlier Rotax 912 ULS engines can be upgraded to 2000 hours. The eligibility is not obvious from the engine s/n, but is actually a function of the crankcase s/n. This will be covered in my upcoming EAA Webinar "What TBO Really Means," airing the evening of 14 March 2018. You can register at http://eaa.org.webinars]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T20:06:24-05:00 2018-02-06T20:06:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49569#p49569 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-06T22:38:10-05:00 2018-02-06T22:38:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49573#p49573
drseti wrote:Additionally, there is a calendar year life limit on Rotax engines. All of the 912s from 2005 and earlier (and some early 2006s) had a 12 year limit - which means they are now beyond TBO, regardless of Hobbs hours. You can't run them legally beyond the 12 year limit in an SLSA. Your options would be to install a newer engine with the updated crankcase design, or convert to ELSA.


Whether you can run past TBO or not seems to be a debatable topic. There have been 2 conflicting legal rulings, and you can't even get a answer on the subject from the Light Sport Division. My guess is there will have to be an enforcement action and legal battle before this is all settled. Just like the early days of light sport when they said you needed to have factory training to work on Rotax engines I think this will be resolved favorably.

Personally unless they can justify an airworthiness reason for adhering to TBO I think they should be treated just like the rest of the GA world.]]>
drseti wrote:Additionally, there is a calendar year life limit on Rotax engines. All of the 912s from 2005 and earlier (and some early 2006s) had a 12 year limit - which means they are now beyond TBO, regardless of Hobbs hours. You can't run them legally beyond the 12 year limit in an SLSA. Your options would be to install a newer engine with the updated crankcase design, or convert to ELSA.


Whether you can run past TBO or not seems to be a debatable topic. There have been 2 conflicting legal rulings, and you can't even get a answer on the subject from the Light Sport Division. My guess is there will have to be an enforcement action and legal battle before this is all settled. Just like the early days of light sport when they said you needed to have factory training to work on Rotax engines I think this will be resolved favorably.

Personally unless they can justify an airworthiness reason for adhering to TBO I think they should be treated just like the rest of the GA world.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T22:57:36-05:00 2018-02-06T22:57:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49575#p49575
As for the OP's implied question. If I were a noncommercial owner with an existing aircraft, I would probably operate a well-functioning engine beyond TBO. But I think it would be imprudent to purchase an aircraft with an engine already known to be beyond TBO, until the question is resolved favorably.]]>

As for the OP's implied question. If I were a noncommercial owner with an existing aircraft, I would probably operate a well-functioning engine beyond TBO. But I think it would be imprudent to purchase an aircraft with an engine already known to be beyond TBO, until the question is resolved favorably.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T23:18:10-05:00 2018-02-06T23:18:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49576#p49576 https://www.facebook.com/iSimplyFLY/pho ... 33/?type=3 which they just upgraded with a new engine - the old one was just under 3000 h ....

It is a pretty well known school around Chicago area with multiple LS aircraft etc .... I guess there is no consensus on what is legal or even prudent in terms of running commercial ops with engines on condition ...]]>
https://www.facebook.com/iSimplyFLY/pho ... 33/?type=3 which they just upgraded with a new engine - the old one was just under 3000 h ....

It is a pretty well known school around Chicago area with multiple LS aircraft etc .... I guess there is no consensus on what is legal or even prudent in terms of running commercial ops with engines on condition ...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-06T23:29:26-05:00 2018-02-06T23:29:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49577#p49577 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T23:58:51-05:00 2018-02-06T23:58:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49580#p49580 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-07T01:33:00-05:00 2018-02-07T01:33:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49581#p49581
drseti wrote:The only safe answer is "Yes, it's true. I don't buy a new airplane every year just because the manufacturer recommends it."

That was excellent.]]>
drseti wrote:The only safe answer is "Yes, it's true. I don't buy a new airplane every year just because the manufacturer recommends it."

That was excellent.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by pjcampbell]]> 2018-02-07T07:20:34-05:00 2018-02-07T07:20:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49582#p49582
So are LSA rules not the same as in privately operated certificated aircraft in that you can go over TBO as long as everything else is in good working order? Or was the question only for commercial operations?]]>

So are LSA rules not the same as in privately operated certificated aircraft in that you can go over TBO as long as everything else is in good working order? Or was the question only for commercial operations?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-07T08:45:10-05:00 2018-02-07T08:45:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49583#p49583
pjcampbell wrote:So are LSA rules not the same as in privately operated certificated aircraft in that you can go over TBO as long as everything else is in good working order?


As written, SLSA Maintenance rules are indeed very different from those for certified aircraft. They state that the manufacturer sets the maintenance requirements (in accordance to ASTM consensus standards) and they must be followed exactly. There have been two separate letters of interpretation issued by two different folks at FAA Legal, and they are mutually contradictory. So, our friend Mike Busch filed a petition for clarification with FAA about a year or so back. They've not yet responded.]]>
pjcampbell wrote:So are LSA rules not the same as in privately operated certificated aircraft in that you can go over TBO as long as everything else is in good working order?


As written, SLSA Maintenance rules are indeed very different from those for certified aircraft. They state that the manufacturer sets the maintenance requirements (in accordance to ASTM consensus standards) and they must be followed exactly. There have been two separate letters of interpretation issued by two different folks at FAA Legal, and they are mutually contradictory. So, our friend Mike Busch filed a petition for clarification with FAA about a year or so back. They've not yet responded.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-07T10:23:09-05:00 2018-02-07T10:23:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49584#p49584
drseti wrote:As written, SLSA Maintenance rules are indeed very different from those for certified aircraft. They state that the manufacturer sets the maintenance requirements (in accordance to ASTM consensus standards) and they must be followed exactly. There have been two separate letters of interpretation issued by two different folks at FAA Legal, and they are mutually contradictory. So, our friend Mike Busch filed a petition for clarification with FAA about a year or so back. They've not yet responded.


That is what you get when you have lawyers who have no common sense or understanding of the aviation industry making these decisions.

It is the aircraft manufacture that defines maintenance requirements not Rotax. The aircraft manufacturer has the ability to allow the engine to be inspected on condition. It is also my opinion for TBO to be mandatory would require a safety directive, or an airworthiness section in the maintenance manual. This subject has been talked about in great detail over on ctflier.com.]]>
drseti wrote:As written, SLSA Maintenance rules are indeed very different from those for certified aircraft. They state that the manufacturer sets the maintenance requirements (in accordance to ASTM consensus standards) and they must be followed exactly. There have been two separate letters of interpretation issued by two different folks at FAA Legal, and they are mutually contradictory. So, our friend Mike Busch filed a petition for clarification with FAA about a year or so back. They've not yet responded.


That is what you get when you have lawyers who have no common sense or understanding of the aviation industry making these decisions.

It is the aircraft manufacture that defines maintenance requirements not Rotax. The aircraft manufacturer has the ability to allow the engine to be inspected on condition. It is also my opinion for TBO to be mandatory would require a safety directive, or an airworthiness section in the maintenance manual. This subject has been talked about in great detail over on ctflier.com.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by Type47]]> 2018-02-07T10:32:53-05:00 2018-02-07T10:32:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49586#p49586 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by Type47]]> 2018-02-07T10:36:11-05:00 2018-02-07T10:36:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49587#p49587 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Thoughts on this P92 for sale? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-07T10:49:12-05:00 2018-02-07T10:49:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5005&p=49588#p49588
3Dreaming wrote: lawyers who have no common sense


Redundant.

You must be talking about Daniel Bernath.]]>
3Dreaming wrote: lawyers who have no common sense


Redundant.

You must be talking about Daniel Bernath.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Dashware or the like :: Reply by jfleming]]> 2018-01-25T19:13:06-05:00 2018-01-25T19:13:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4992&p=49309#p49309
I have just learnt that my Garmin Aera500 mounted on the dash of my bird records data when I fly! So that may be my answer. :)

I will keep you posted.]]>

I have just learnt that my Garmin Aera500 mounted on the dash of my bird records data when I fly! So that may be my answer. :)

I will keep you posted.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Dashware or the like :: Reply by jfleming]]> 2018-02-08T20:22:45-05:00 2018-02-08T20:22:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4992&p=49592#p49592

Haven't managed to get to my bird for the data on the Garmin yet - hopefully this week.

Cheers
J]]>


Haven't managed to get to my bird for the data on the Garmin yet - hopefully this week.

Cheers
J]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Dashware or the like :: Reply by jfleming]]> 2018-02-13T20:11:05-05:00 2018-02-13T20:11:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4992&p=49629#p49629
Farewell Dashware. LOL!]]>

Farewell Dashware. LOL!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Dashware or the like :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-13T21:14:01-05:00 2018-02-13T21:14:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4992&p=49632#p49632 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Dashware or the like :: Reply by jfleming]]> 2018-02-13T22:15:15-05:00 2018-02-13T22:15:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4992&p=49633#p49633
Cheers
J]]>

Cheers
J]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Mogas Octane Loss :: Author TakeTwo]]> 2018-02-13T13:18:58-05:00 2018-02-13T13:18:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5007&p=49621#p49621
I'm guessing that one alternate course of action would be to partially drain the tanks and re-fill with fresh mogas or 100LL to boost the octane. Related questions about detonation: How much of an issue is it ? Will I even know its happening until the aftermath?

Thanks in advance.]]>

I'm guessing that one alternate course of action would be to partially drain the tanks and re-fill with fresh mogas or 100LL to boost the octane. Related questions about detonation: How much of an issue is it ? Will I even know its happening until the aftermath?

Thanks in advance.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Mogas Octane Loss :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-13T15:03:01-05:00 2018-02-13T15:03:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5007&p=49625#p49625 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Mogas Octane Loss :: Reply by rsteele]]> 2018-02-13T15:53:54-05:00 2018-02-13T15:53:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5007&p=49626#p49626 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Mogas Octane Loss :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-13T20:31:52-05:00 2018-02-13T20:31:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5007&p=49630#p49630 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Mogas Octane Loss :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-13T20:52:51-05:00 2018-02-13T20:52:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5007&p=49631#p49631
2) After you do that, remember that the treated fuel is in your tank, not your engine carbs. You'll have to run it up / idle for a while to bring the treated fuel into your carbs, otherwise, you risk varnish deposits.]]>

2) After you do that, remember that the treated fuel is in your tank, not your engine carbs. You'll have to run it up / idle for a while to bring the treated fuel into your carbs, otherwise, you risk varnish deposits.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Mogas Octane Loss :: Reply by drdehave]]> 2018-02-14T19:35:33-05:00 2018-02-14T19:35:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5007&p=49641#p49641 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Affordable ADS-B out :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-02-15T14:34:27-05:00 2018-02-15T14:34:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=49645#p49645
ShawnM wrote:I'm waiting on UPS right now for my GDL-82.


Shawn, is your GDL 82 installed, and if so how difficult was the installation?

TIA]]>
ShawnM wrote:I'm waiting on UPS right now for my GDL-82.


Shawn, is your GDL 82 installed, and if so how difficult was the installation?

TIA]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Affordable ADS-B out :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-15T17:01:57-05:00 2018-02-15T17:01:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=49646#p49646
Scooper wrote:Shawn, is your GDL 82 installed, and if so how difficult was the installation?


Hi Stan,

Yes, it's installed and works great. Since I now wake up the ground base towers my GDL-39 3D receives the complete traffic picture (dual band receiver) and displays it on my Aera 660. (as well as my iPhone and iPad running foreflight when I use it for backup)

Very, very easy install. Mine took a bit longer as I had to make an avionics shelf behind the copilot panel since I didn't have one from the factory, only on the pilots side. I also added a dedicated push/pull 5A circuit breaker. The other option is to wire it to your transponder power so they are both on at the same time, providing you have the proper circuit breaker rating.

Avionics shelf:
avionics_shelf.jpg


If you dont install the optional "push to test" button and the anonymous switch it'll go even faster. I installed both.

Here's the copilot panel showing the dedicated circuit breaker, far right one on the bottom and the optional switches (anonymous mode and push to test) are to the right of the Dynon EMS.
co-pilot panel.jpg



If you plan on installing this yourself be sure you have a high density d-sub pin crimper. The unit has a 15 pin high density connector. You'll also need 4 antenna connectors, 2 BNC and 2 TNC along with some RG-400 cable. Minimum 6.5 feet just for the GPS antenna and another piece to install between your transponder and the GDL-82.

I mounted my antenna under the cowling on an antenna shelf I installed for both my GPS antennas. Seen here:
antenna shelf.jpg


The wiring is very easy. Basically power, ground, the USB connector (this is a 6" pigtail that's included) for programming and two wires for the optional switches/buttons.

Once installed you power it up and run the GDL-82 programming software. You then program in your tail number, flight category, stall speed, tell if if you have the optional inputs wired, how far from the nose of the airplane the antenna is located in feet and if you have a single or dual band receiver.

The software is very easy to navigate and you can also monitor the GPS signals and and status. You also use the software for any firmware updates to the GDL-82.

I'd highly recommend the GDL-82 to anyone considering other equipment. This ADS-B unit is top notch.

Hope this helps.

Attachments



avionics_shelf.jpg (37.52 KiB)



co-pilot panel.jpg (60.53 KiB)



antenna shelf.jpg (57.98 KiB)


]]>
Scooper wrote:Shawn, is your GDL 82 installed, and if so how difficult was the installation?


Hi Stan,

Yes, it's installed and works great. Since I now wake up the ground base towers my GDL-39 3D receives the complete traffic picture (dual band receiver) and displays it on my Aera 660. (as well as my iPhone and iPad running foreflight when I use it for backup)

Very, very easy install. Mine took a bit longer as I had to make an avionics shelf behind the copilot panel since I didn't have one from the factory, only on the pilots side. I also added a dedicated push/pull 5A circuit breaker. The other option is to wire it to your transponder power so they are both on at the same time, providing you have the proper circuit breaker rating.

Avionics shelf:
avionics_shelf.jpg


If you dont install the optional "push to test" button and the anonymous switch it'll go even faster. I installed both.

Here's the copilot panel showing the dedicated circuit breaker, far right one on the bottom and the optional switches (anonymous mode and push to test) are to the right of the Dynon EMS.
co-pilot panel.jpg



If you plan on installing this yourself be sure you have a high density d-sub pin crimper. The unit has a 15 pin high density connector. You'll also need 4 antenna connectors, 2 BNC and 2 TNC along with some RG-400 cable. Minimum 6.5 feet just for the GPS antenna and another piece to install between your transponder and the GDL-82.

I mounted my antenna under the cowling on an antenna shelf I installed for both my GPS antennas. Seen here:
antenna shelf.jpg


The wiring is very easy. Basically power, ground, the USB connector (this is a 6" pigtail that's included) for programming and two wires for the optional switches/buttons.

Once installed you power it up and run the GDL-82 programming software. You then program in your tail number, flight category, stall speed, tell if if you have the optional inputs wired, how far from the nose of the airplane the antenna is located in feet and if you have a single or dual band receiver.

The software is very easy to navigate and you can also monitor the GPS signals and and status. You also use the software for any firmware updates to the GDL-82.

I'd highly recommend the GDL-82 to anyone considering other equipment. This ADS-B unit is top notch.

Hope this helps.

Attachments



avionics_shelf.jpg (37.52 KiB)



co-pilot panel.jpg (60.53 KiB)



antenna shelf.jpg (57.98 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Affordable ADS-B out :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-02-15T17:12:36-05:00 2018-02-15T17:12:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=49647#p49647
I have the Aera 660 and GDL 39R installed. Next is the GDL 82 and I'll be done.

Thanks!
Stan]]>

I have the Aera 660 and GDL 39R installed. Next is the GDL 82 and I'll be done.

Thanks!
Stan]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Affordable ADS-B out :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-15T17:58:58-05:00 2018-02-15T17:58:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=49649#p49649
2) Why 2 GPS antennas?

3) In what situations would you want to switch to "anonymous" ?]]>

2) Why 2 GPS antennas?

3) In what situations would you want to switch to "anonymous" ?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Affordable ADS-B out :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-15T22:46:04-05:00 2018-02-15T22:46:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=49650#p49650
Scooper wrote:That's great, Shawn, and that's a mighty fine looking installation!

I have the Aera 660 and GDL 39R installed. Next is the GDL 82 and I'll be done.

Thanks!
Stan


Thank you Stan, I'm very happy with the install and the GDL-82.

Love the Aera 660 and the GDL-39 3D!]]>
Scooper wrote:That's great, Shawn, and that's a mighty fine looking installation!

I have the Aera 660 and GDL 39R installed. Next is the GDL 82 and I'll be done.

Thanks!
Stan


Thank you Stan, I'm very happy with the install and the GDL-82.

Love the Aera 660 and the GDL-39 3D!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Affordable ADS-B out :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-15T23:16:45-05:00 2018-02-15T23:16:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3425&p=49651#p49651
WDD wrote:1) Would not engine heat interfere / cause issues with the GPS antennas?

2) Why 2 GPS antennas?

3) In what situations would you want to switch to "anonymous" ?


Hi WDD,

1 - If you look at the antenna shelf it's 2 layers. The bottom layer has a heat shield liner on the bottom to keep the heat/temps down. The heat hasn't been an issue. The antenna is rated to 185°F.

2 - The second GPS antenna is the external mount antenna for my Area 660, it's the GA-25MCX.

3 - I use "anonymous mode" when I'm transporting several kilos of coke (a-cola) up from south Florida. :mrgreen: That was a joke if the DEA is reading this. :mrgreen:

Some people are worried about "big brother" watching them so many of the ADS-B out boxes offer anonymous mode when you are squawking 1200. It only works when you are squawking 1200. The ADS-B out still relays your position, speed and altitude but generates a random ICAO address instead of your own aircrafts ICAO address and it generates a temporary N number.

Again, only while you are squawking 1200. If you are on flight following with an assigned squawk code then anonymous mode is disabled and does not work even if the switch is on. When you are squawking an assigned code from ATC then your ICAO address and N number are sent to ATC.

You can run but you can't hide. :mrgreen:]]>
WDD wrote:1) Would not engine heat interfere / cause issues with the GPS antennas?

2) Why 2 GPS antennas?

3) In what situations would you want to switch to "anonymous" ?


Hi WDD,

1 - If you look at the antenna shelf it's 2 layers. The bottom layer has a heat shield liner on the bottom to keep the heat/temps down. The heat hasn't been an issue. The antenna is rated to 185°F.

2 - The second GPS antenna is the external mount antenna for my Area 660, it's the GA-25MCX.

3 - I use "anonymous mode" when I'm transporting several kilos of coke (a-cola) up from south Florida. :mrgreen: That was a joke if the DEA is reading this. :mrgreen:

Some people are worried about "big brother" watching them so many of the ADS-B out boxes offer anonymous mode when you are squawking 1200. It only works when you are squawking 1200. The ADS-B out still relays your position, speed and altitude but generates a random ICAO address instead of your own aircrafts ICAO address and it generates a temporary N number.

Again, only while you are squawking 1200. If you are on flight following with an assigned squawk code then anonymous mode is disabled and does not work even if the switch is on. When you are squawking an assigned code from ATC then your ICAO address and N number are sent to ATC.

You can run but you can't hide. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Sportcruiser Tow bar :: Author OC Flight Lessons]]> 2018-02-14T18:37:08-05:00 2018-02-14T18:37:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5010&p=49640#p49640
Thanks!]]>

Thanks!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sportcruiser Tow bar :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-14T19:55:32-05:00 2018-02-14T19:55:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5010&p=49642#p49642 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sportcruiser Tow bar :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-14T20:11:50-05:00 2018-02-14T20:11:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5010&p=49643#p49643
OC Flight Lessons wrote:Can anyone suggest a cheaper option for a tow bar than what I was quoted $395 from the Czech dealer rep? My 152 is only $60.

Thanks!


I may know someone with a spare. I'll get back to you via PM.

Shawn]]>
OC Flight Lessons wrote:Can anyone suggest a cheaper option for a tow bar than what I was quoted $395 from the Czech dealer rep? My 152 is only $60.

Thanks!


I may know someone with a spare. I'll get back to you via PM.

Shawn]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sportcruiser Tow bar :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-14T20:20:13-05:00 2018-02-14T20:20:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5010&p=49644#p49644 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sportcruiser Tow bar :: Reply by Parker]]> 2018-02-17T10:52:26-05:00 2018-02-17T10:52:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5010&p=49657#p49657 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sportcruiser Tow bar :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-17T22:17:19-05:00 2018-02-17T22:17:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5010&p=49667#p49667 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Pick and Choose? :: Author FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-20T11:55:54-05:00 2018-02-20T11:55:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5014&p=49751#p49751
I recall an article from one of the flying magazines. It was 20 or more years ago, so I may have some of the details wrong.

The accident's proximate cause seemed to relate to illegally using a handheld to attempt an instrument approach and coming to grief. But the main gist of the article was the pilot's lackadaisical take on maintenance and aviation in general.

A list of interesting facts was laid out. I recall 2:

1) Every year the mechanic doing annuals would find the sump drains rusted shut. Every year he would advise the owner of the importance of regularly sumping the fuel. And invariably the following year the mechanic would again find the drains rusted shut.

2) I'm pretty sure another was that to get the plane started required shooting starter fluid into the carb, and that it had been that way for a while.

I'm reminded of this by the discussion about gross weight, which veered off from a hypothetical benefit from a stronger structure to the implication that there might be safety benefits to knowing how much your plane could really handle.

I mentioned that I try to be a "By the Book" sort of pilot. This means not picking and choosing which limitations are worth considering, and which regulations can be bent just a little. I do not claim perfection, but I do try my best.

We know accidents rarely have a single cause, but often a chain of events that lead to them. In the recent case of USSYorktown, it was suggested his plane was out of annual. If true, this could point to him picking and choosing which regulations he decided to follow. Could lack of an annual have been a contributing factor in his accident? Maybe, maybe not. But with his messing around with his plane's control cable runs, its not unreasonable to think if he had made a mistake, it could conceivably have been caught during an annual, and failure to do so could have led to an accident. Speculation, to be sure, and we may know more if and when a final report is issued.

I think most of us are aware of Light Sport planes being operated above 1,320 lbs, often with no dire consequences. But the willingness of any pilot to do so shows he or she picks and chooses among limitations they decide they have decided they want to follow, and this can, under the right circumstances, lead to problems.

If I ever read of a Light Sport accident where the plane was over gross, it tells me more than just that the pilot chose to ignore this one limitation on this one particular flight.

I had one other thought on the topic, which I'll address next.]]>

I recall an article from one of the flying magazines. It was 20 or more years ago, so I may have some of the details wrong.

The accident's proximate cause seemed to relate to illegally using a handheld to attempt an instrument approach and coming to grief. But the main gist of the article was the pilot's lackadaisical take on maintenance and aviation in general.

A list of interesting facts was laid out. I recall 2:

1) Every year the mechanic doing annuals would find the sump drains rusted shut. Every year he would advise the owner of the importance of regularly sumping the fuel. And invariably the following year the mechanic would again find the drains rusted shut.

2) I'm pretty sure another was that to get the plane started required shooting starter fluid into the carb, and that it had been that way for a while.

I'm reminded of this by the discussion about gross weight, which veered off from a hypothetical benefit from a stronger structure to the implication that there might be safety benefits to knowing how much your plane could really handle.

I mentioned that I try to be a "By the Book" sort of pilot. This means not picking and choosing which limitations are worth considering, and which regulations can be bent just a little. I do not claim perfection, but I do try my best.

We know accidents rarely have a single cause, but often a chain of events that lead to them. In the recent case of USSYorktown, it was suggested his plane was out of annual. If true, this could point to him picking and choosing which regulations he decided to follow. Could lack of an annual have been a contributing factor in his accident? Maybe, maybe not. But with his messing around with his plane's control cable runs, its not unreasonable to think if he had made a mistake, it could conceivably have been caught during an annual, and failure to do so could have led to an accident. Speculation, to be sure, and we may know more if and when a final report is issued.

I think most of us are aware of Light Sport planes being operated above 1,320 lbs, often with no dire consequences. But the willingness of any pilot to do so shows he or she picks and chooses among limitations they decide they have decided they want to follow, and this can, under the right circumstances, lead to problems.

If I ever read of a Light Sport accident where the plane was over gross, it tells me more than just that the pilot chose to ignore this one limitation on this one particular flight.

I had one other thought on the topic, which I'll address next.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pick and Choose? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-20T12:09:58-05:00 2018-02-20T12:09:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5014&p=49753#p49753
In 1996, a pilot rented my rental Citabria and managed to kill himself and the teenage son of his fiancee. Tragically, it was the day after Christmas and the flight was a Christmas gift for the teenager.

Old timers to this forum are aware of this. If any lurkers or newbies want a link to the accident report, I can provide it.

In summary...

1) The pilot chose to fly the plane well over its maximum gross weight

2) The pilot chose to do low-level aerobatics without approval or a waiver

3) The pilot chose to do low-level aerobatics without the legally required parachutes

4) There may have been a mechanical discrepancy involving a wing attachment point

All links in a fatal chain. Its very possible that no single one, or even more than one, would have had fatal consequences. But a cocktail of all four clearly did.

Anyway, the above is why I don't take overloading a plane, or picking and choosing which regulations a pilot wants to follow, lightly.]]>

In 1996, a pilot rented my rental Citabria and managed to kill himself and the teenage son of his fiancee. Tragically, it was the day after Christmas and the flight was a Christmas gift for the teenager.

Old timers to this forum are aware of this. If any lurkers or newbies want a link to the accident report, I can provide it.

In summary...

1) The pilot chose to fly the plane well over its maximum gross weight

2) The pilot chose to do low-level aerobatics without approval or a waiver

3) The pilot chose to do low-level aerobatics without the legally required parachutes

4) There may have been a mechanical discrepancy involving a wing attachment point

All links in a fatal chain. Its very possible that no single one, or even more than one, would have had fatal consequences. But a cocktail of all four clearly did.

Anyway, the above is why I don't take overloading a plane, or picking and choosing which regulations a pilot wants to follow, lightly.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pick and Choose? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-20T14:42:23-05:00 2018-02-20T14:42:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5014&p=49756#p49756 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pick and Choose? :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-20T14:48:37-05:00 2018-02-20T14:48:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5014&p=49757#p49757

(And yes, I say that as a fellow cohort in crime.)]]>


(And yes, I say that as a fellow cohort in crime.)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pick and Choose? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-20T15:43:45-05:00 2018-02-20T15:43:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5014&p=49760#p49760
Half Fast wrote:OTOH, Eddie, you can be pretty cavalier about which traffic regulations you choose to obey when on a motorcycle. :mrgreen:

(And yes, I say that as a fellow cohort in crime.)



Fake news.]]>
Half Fast wrote:OTOH, Eddie, you can be pretty cavalier about which traffic regulations you choose to obey when on a motorcycle. :mrgreen:

(And yes, I say that as a fellow cohort in crime.)



Fake news.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pick and Choose? :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-20T15:46:32-05:00 2018-02-20T15:46:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5014&p=49761#p49761
FastEddieB wrote:
Half Fast wrote:OTOH, Eddie, you can be pretty cavalier about which traffic regulations you choose to obey when on a motorcycle. :mrgreen:

(And yes, I say that as a fellow cohort in crime.)



Fake news.



ROTFL!!!]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Half Fast wrote:OTOH, Eddie, you can be pretty cavalier about which traffic regulations you choose to obey when on a motorcycle. :mrgreen:

(And yes, I say that as a fellow cohort in crime.)



Fake news.



ROTFL!!!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Author cam737]]> 2018-02-16T19:31:56-05:00 2018-02-16T19:31:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49652#p49652
Also, if interested in EAB check out Midwest Sky Sports home page and click on "Financing", scroll down and check out the 4.5 percent interest rates. I talked to the credit union they use and they offered 3.5 percent after 90 days of membership...pretty good for 51% EAB I think.

I have been doing a lot of homework on the TAF USA and TAF South Africa and my results are all good. I even talked to Tom Haines of AOPA and he gave the company a big thumbs up.

YOLO!

Cam]]>

Also, if interested in EAB check out Midwest Sky Sports home page and click on "Financing", scroll down and check out the 4.5 percent interest rates. I talked to the credit union they use and they offered 3.5 percent after 90 days of membership...pretty good for 51% EAB I think.

I have been doing a lot of homework on the TAF USA and TAF South Africa and my results are all good. I even talked to Tom Haines of AOPA and he gave the company a big thumbs up.

YOLO!

Cam]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-16T20:47:32-05:00 2018-02-16T20:47:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49653#p49653 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-17T00:08:23-05:00 2018-02-17T00:08:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49654#p49654 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-17T08:29:18-05:00 2018-02-17T08:29:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49656#p49656 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-17T11:20:55-05:00 2018-02-17T11:20:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49658#p49658 The more Slings in the US the better. For some reason the airplane factory never really became a player in this market in the US despite Slings being one of the best light sport planes.]]> The more Slings in the US the better. For some reason the airplane factory never really became a player in this market in the US despite Slings being one of the best light sport planes.]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-17T12:46:37-05:00 2018-02-17T12:46:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49659#p49659 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-17T13:05:11-05:00 2018-02-17T13:05:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49660#p49660
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Bahamas here we come! Any timeline on the build Cam? Good Luck, chat soon...


Yes bey! Ha it go?

In talks with Midwest Sky Sports...]]>
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Bahamas here we come! Any timeline on the build Cam? Good Luck, chat soon...


Yes bey! Ha it go?

In talks with Midwest Sky Sports...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-02-17T18:36:35-05:00 2018-02-17T18:36:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49661#p49661 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-17T18:38:11-05:00 2018-02-17T18:38:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49662#p49662 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by jetcat3]]> 2018-02-17T19:50:46-05:00 2018-02-17T19:50:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49663#p49663 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-18T13:11:15-05:00 2018-02-18T13:11:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49677#p49677 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-18T14:19:24-05:00 2018-02-18T14:19:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49678#p49678
HAPPYDAN wrote:All this banter about the Sling 2 has me stoked. I plan to visit Carson City NV in mid March, and plan to drop in on Paul Hamilton's operation there. He advertises a Sling 2 available for training/rent, so I'll try to get a ride and see if it's really all everyone says it is. BTW, I like that sliding canopy, ala "fighter plane" style. Is it possible to fly with canopy open?


HD: You can fly with the canopy open! I did it on my test flight and it was great...no wind in the cockpit at all. The only minor issue is that the canopy slides shut due to aerodynamic lift above the canopy, so I am going to put a latch or figure out a way to keep canopy open. Might be handy for photography. I think the POH has a limit on max airspeed and amount of distance canopy may be opened.

My USAF flying was F-15C. I felt like I was back in the Eagle...but less thrust-to-weight. :)

I am sure Paul would be great. I can't say enough about how great Jean was on our test flights at TAF USA in California! He knows how to sell an airplane...especially if you need a wife to approve of your Sling. We did test flights last August 2017 and my wife is still on cloud 9. Jean had her fly the entire flight except taxi and landing...she had never flown an airplane and she just loved it..."I couldn't believe I was flying it", "I felt so safe", "write the check".

Cam]]>
HAPPYDAN wrote:All this banter about the Sling 2 has me stoked. I plan to visit Carson City NV in mid March, and plan to drop in on Paul Hamilton's operation there. He advertises a Sling 2 available for training/rent, so I'll try to get a ride and see if it's really all everyone says it is. BTW, I like that sliding canopy, ala "fighter plane" style. Is it possible to fly with canopy open?


HD: You can fly with the canopy open! I did it on my test flight and it was great...no wind in the cockpit at all. The only minor issue is that the canopy slides shut due to aerodynamic lift above the canopy, so I am going to put a latch or figure out a way to keep canopy open. Might be handy for photography. I think the POH has a limit on max airspeed and amount of distance canopy may be opened.

My USAF flying was F-15C. I felt like I was back in the Eagle...but less thrust-to-weight. :)

I am sure Paul would be great. I can't say enough about how great Jean was on our test flights at TAF USA in California! He knows how to sell an airplane...especially if you need a wife to approve of your Sling. We did test flights last August 2017 and my wife is still on cloud 9. Jean had her fly the entire flight except taxi and landing...she had never flown an airplane and she just loved it..."I couldn't believe I was flying it", "I felt so safe", "write the check".

Cam]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-18T16:52:45-05:00 2018-02-18T16:52:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49682#p49682 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-18T23:10:57-05:00 2018-02-18T23:10:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49691#p49691 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-19T09:42:31-05:00 2018-02-19T09:42:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49693#p49693 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-19T20:05:56-05:00 2018-02-19T20:05:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49726#p49726 Cam]]> Cam]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-19T21:05:02-05:00 2018-02-19T21:05:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49731#p49731
HAPPYDAN wrote:All this banter about the Sling 2 has me stoked. I plan to visit Carson City NV in mid March, and plan to drop in on Paul Hamilton's operation there. He advertises a Sling 2 available for training/rent, so I'll try to get a ride and see if it's really all everyone says it is. BTW, I like that sliding canopy, ala "fighter plane" style. Is it possible to fly with canopy open?


How about sling 2 skydiving ? :D
https://youtu.be/WrzU26ISgFk]]>
HAPPYDAN wrote:All this banter about the Sling 2 has me stoked. I plan to visit Carson City NV in mid March, and plan to drop in on Paul Hamilton's operation there. He advertises a Sling 2 available for training/rent, so I'll try to get a ride and see if it's really all everyone says it is. BTW, I like that sliding canopy, ala "fighter plane" style. Is it possible to fly with canopy open?


How about sling 2 skydiving ? :D
https://youtu.be/WrzU26ISgFk]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-19T21:52:09-05:00 2018-02-19T21:52:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49733#p49733
Warmi wrote:
HAPPYDAN wrote:How about sling 2 skydiving ? :D
https://youtu.be/WrzU26ISgFk


Holy Moly! I guess that answers the question about being able to open the canopy in flight!

I couldn’t see the flaps from the camera angle, but wondering if the plane was configured for slow flight and what speed they were at when the passenger exited the plane.]]>
Warmi wrote:
HAPPYDAN wrote:How about sling 2 skydiving ? :D
https://youtu.be/WrzU26ISgFk


Holy Moly! I guess that answers the question about being able to open the canopy in flight!

I couldn’t see the flaps from the camera angle, but wondering if the plane was configured for slow flight and what speed they were at when the passenger exited the plane.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-02-19T22:24:54-05:00 2018-02-19T22:24:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49735#p49735 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-20T07:58:43-05:00 2018-02-20T07:58:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49741#p49741 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-20T09:52:11-05:00 2018-02-20T09:52:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49743#p49743
drseti wrote:I wonder if the pilot was also wearing a parachute. Nothing that could possibly go wrong here...


I know here it is required by regulation. I know someone who dumped a parachutist out of T6 once. The parachutist hit the horizontal. The airplane landed okay. The parachutist survived, but had some extensive facial damage. I think it was a lucky day for both.]]>
drseti wrote:I wonder if the pilot was also wearing a parachute. Nothing that could possibly go wrong here...


I know here it is required by regulation. I know someone who dumped a parachutist out of T6 once. The parachutist hit the horizontal. The airplane landed okay. The parachutist survived, but had some extensive facial damage. I think it was a lucky day for both.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-20T13:29:42-05:00 2018-02-20T13:29:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49755#p49755

It does appear that was pretty slow flight - they guy who exited the plane didn’t look like he was struggling a lot ,something I would expect to see if the plane was at its cruising speed.]]>


It does appear that was pretty slow flight - they guy who exited the plane didn’t look like he was struggling a lot ,something I would expect to see if the plane was at its cruising speed.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 Price Increase March ! :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-21T14:36:47-05:00 2018-02-21T14:36:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5011&p=49805#p49805 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Author WDD]]> 2018-02-18T15:35:09-05:00 2018-02-18T15:35:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49680#p49680
Hence, Vans RV 12, Sling 2, etc are rated at 1320.

But is it possible to find out what it can really safely carry? That is, how much margin do you have?

A Sling 2 looks nice because while we would load it only to 1320 lbs, it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more. A nice safety margin. Same probably for the Jabiru. Have no idea what the RV 12 could really carry.

Thoughts?]]>

Hence, Vans RV 12, Sling 2, etc are rated at 1320.

But is it possible to find out what it can really safely carry? That is, how much margin do you have?

A Sling 2 looks nice because while we would load it only to 1320 lbs, it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more. A nice safety margin. Same probably for the Jabiru. Have no idea what the RV 12 could really carry.

Thoughts?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-18T16:08:55-05:00 2018-02-18T16:08:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49681#p49681
If you want to fly with more than 1320 max gross, get a medical and private license and fly whatever you want.]]>

If you want to fly with more than 1320 max gross, get a medical and private license and fly whatever you want.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-18T17:14:07-05:00 2018-02-18T17:14:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49683#p49683
TimTaylor wrote:An LSA is limited to 1320 regardless of who is flying it. It doesn't matter how much weight it could carry.

If you want to fly with more than 1320 max gross, get a medical and private license and fly whatever you want.


United States
The Light Sport Aircraft Rule: The FAA defines a light sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter or Powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:[6]

Max. Gross Takeoff Weight: 1,320 lbs (600 kg) or 1,430 lbs for seaplanes (650 kg)
Max. Stall Speed: 51 mph / 45 knots CAS
Max. Speed in Level Flight (at sea level In the US Standard Atmosphere):138 mph / 120 knots CAS
Seats: Two (max.)
Engines / Motors: One (max. if powered.)
Propeller: Fixed-pitch or ground adjustable
Cabin: Unpressurized
Fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.
Landing Gear: Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)]]>
TimTaylor wrote:An LSA is limited to 1320 regardless of who is flying it. It doesn't matter how much weight it could carry.

If you want to fly with more than 1320 max gross, get a medical and private license and fly whatever you want.


United States
The Light Sport Aircraft Rule: The FAA defines a light sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter or Powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:[6]

Max. Gross Takeoff Weight: 1,320 lbs (600 kg) or 1,430 lbs for seaplanes (650 kg)
Max. Stall Speed: 51 mph / 45 knots CAS
Max. Speed in Level Flight (at sea level In the US Standard Atmosphere):138 mph / 120 knots CAS
Seats: Two (max.)
Engines / Motors: One (max. if powered.)
Propeller: Fixed-pitch or ground adjustable
Cabin: Unpressurized
Fixed-pitch, semi-rigid, teetering, two-blade rotor system, if a gyroplane.
Landing Gear: Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-18T17:47:54-05:00 2018-02-18T17:47:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49684#p49684
TimTaylor wrote:An LSA is limited to 1320 regardless of who is flying it. It doesn't matter how much weight it could carry.

If you want to fly with more than 1320 max gross, get a medical and private license and fly whatever you want.


Who is suggesting that the limit is anything other than 1320? The OP said in his post that the limit is 1320. He didn't say he wanted to fly at more than 1320, in fact he even emphasized again that a sport pilot could only fly it at 1320 pounds.

I think he just wants to know if there is an increased safety factor based on the same aircraft under different certification being able to operate at a higher gross weight. The answer to that question would be, yes.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:An LSA is limited to 1320 regardless of who is flying it. It doesn't matter how much weight it could carry.

If you want to fly with more than 1320 max gross, get a medical and private license and fly whatever you want.


Who is suggesting that the limit is anything other than 1320? The OP said in his post that the limit is 1320. He didn't say he wanted to fly at more than 1320, in fact he even emphasized again that a sport pilot could only fly it at 1320 pounds.

I think he just wants to know if there is an increased safety factor based on the same aircraft under different certification being able to operate at a higher gross weight. The answer to that question would be, yes.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-18T17:50:34-05:00 2018-02-18T17:50:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49685#p49685 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-18T19:24:15-05:00 2018-02-18T19:24:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49686#p49686
Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.]]>

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-18T19:29:02-05:00 2018-02-18T19:29:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49687#p49687
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.

Yes, many do, until you crash. At that point, the additional weight will result in a
much worse outcome. If you don't plan to overload your LSA, it's a moot point.

The question I would ask is what is the useful load, climb performance, take-off distance, landing distance, etc. at max gross weight.

Why would it matter if you flew an LSA that could technically haul 1560 pounds?]]>
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.

Yes, many do, until you crash. At that point, the additional weight will result in a
much worse outcome. If you don't plan to overload your LSA, it's a moot point.

The question I would ask is what is the useful load, climb performance, take-off distance, landing distance, etc. at max gross weight.

Why would it matter if you flew an LSA that could technically haul 1560 pounds?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-18T19:52:16-05:00 2018-02-18T19:52:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49688#p49688
If someone told me my Sky Arrow was actually safe up to 1,450 lbs, how would it affect my operations?

It wouldn’t. Not one little bit.

So what difference would it make? And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?]]>

If someone told me my Sky Arrow was actually safe up to 1,450 lbs, how would it affect my operations?

It wouldn’t. Not one little bit.

So what difference would it make? And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-18T20:12:21-05:00 2018-02-18T20:12:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49689#p49689 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-18T20:53:44-05:00 2018-02-18T20:53:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49690#p49690
WDD wrote:An LSA needs to be no more than 1320 lbs to be legal for a Sport Pilot to fly.

Hence, Vans RV 12, Sling 2, etc are rated at 1320.

But is it possible to find out what it can really safely carry? That is, how much margin do you have?

A Sling 2 looks nice because while we would load it only to 1320 lbs, it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more. A nice safety margin. Same probably for the Jabiru. Have no idea what the RV 12 could really carry.

Thoughts?


I guess the only way to find out is to download POHs manuals for planes certified with different gross weights in different jurisdictions.That will give you everything, including various V speeds, as applicable.

For pure LSAs , like Rv12 , going over gross you would be essentially testing various engineering margins of safety built into to the design - not exactly something I would want to play with :D]]>
WDD wrote:An LSA needs to be no more than 1320 lbs to be legal for a Sport Pilot to fly.

Hence, Vans RV 12, Sling 2, etc are rated at 1320.

But is it possible to find out what it can really safely carry? That is, how much margin do you have?

A Sling 2 looks nice because while we would load it only to 1320 lbs, it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more. A nice safety margin. Same probably for the Jabiru. Have no idea what the RV 12 could really carry.

Thoughts?


I guess the only way to find out is to download POHs manuals for planes certified with different gross weights in different jurisdictions.That will give you everything, including various V speeds, as applicable.

For pure LSAs , like Rv12 , going over gross you would be essentially testing various engineering margins of safety built into to the design - not exactly something I would want to play with :D]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-19T09:58:16-05:00 2018-02-19T09:58:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49694#p49694
FastEddieB wrote:I kinda side with Tim here.

If someone told me my Sky Arrow was actually safe up to 1,450 lbs, how would it affect my operations?

It wouldn’t. Not one little bit.

So what difference would it make? And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?


Eddie,

Your 2007 Sky Arrow is probably good to go up to 1600 or so. When 3I entered the LSA market they used 650 TCNS airframes, which were certified at the increased weight. I found this out in conversations with Hansen over the years. In fact Magnahi’s first Sky Arrows were said to have a few left over fuselages from 3I.

That said, I am in agreement with you and Tim, if the aircraft is certified as an LSA that’s what is has to be flown as.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I kinda side with Tim here.

If someone told me my Sky Arrow was actually safe up to 1,450 lbs, how would it affect my operations?

It wouldn’t. Not one little bit.

So what difference would it make? And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?


Eddie,

Your 2007 Sky Arrow is probably good to go up to 1600 or so. When 3I entered the LSA market they used 650 TCNS airframes, which were certified at the increased weight. I found this out in conversations with Hansen over the years. In fact Magnahi’s first Sky Arrows were said to have a few left over fuselages from 3I.

That said, I am in agreement with you and Tim, if the aircraft is certified as an LSA that’s what is has to be flown as.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-02-19T10:57:19-05:00 2018-02-19T10:57:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49695#p49695
Two guys flew CTSWs around the world at 1675lb. Is that safe? Maybe for them as highly experienced ATPs, but not for me with my under 1000 hour Sport Pilot ticket.

Was it structurally safe? Who knows, the CTSW was not designed for weights that high. The wing on the airplane is very strong and I'm sure is okay at that weight, but what about the tail in hard maneuvering or turbulence? What about the landing gear? What is the Va at those weights? All unknowns.

So again...what is "safe"?]]>

Two guys flew CTSWs around the world at 1675lb. Is that safe? Maybe for them as highly experienced ATPs, but not for me with my under 1000 hour Sport Pilot ticket.

Was it structurally safe? Who knows, the CTSW was not designed for weights that high. The wing on the airplane is very strong and I'm sure is okay at that weight, but what about the tail in hard maneuvering or turbulence? What about the landing gear? What is the Va at those weights? All unknowns.

So again...what is "safe"?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T11:03:35-05:00 2018-02-19T11:03:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49696#p49696
TimTaylor wrote:Stop following me around the internet. The only reason people ask that question is because they intend to overload an LSA. Otherwise it's moot. You cannot register an LSA as something else to get around the LSA weight limit of 1320. If the manufacturer came out with a higher gross weight certificated model, then it wouldn't be an LSA and would require a Private.


Tim, I am not following you around the internet. I am an active member of this forum, and have been since before you joined. If you would like an example of someone following someone around the internet I would be happy to provide one.

The OP ask about safety factor, not if the airplane could haul more weight. He made it clear that he would be operating at the 1320 pound gross weight. He didn't need a brash lecture from you on the rules, especially when it is clear he already knows what they are.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Stop following me around the internet. The only reason people ask that question is because they intend to overload an LSA. Otherwise it's moot. You cannot register an LSA as something else to get around the LSA weight limit of 1320. If the manufacturer came out with a higher gross weight certificated model, then it wouldn't be an LSA and would require a Private.


Tim, I am not following you around the internet. I am an active member of this forum, and have been since before you joined. If you would like an example of someone following someone around the internet I would be happy to provide one.

The OP ask about safety factor, not if the airplane could haul more weight. He made it clear that he would be operating at the 1320 pound gross weight. He didn't need a brash lecture from you on the rules, especially when it is clear he already knows what they are.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T11:26:33-05:00 2018-02-19T11:26:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49697#p49697
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.


You should not look at safety margin in terms of operating beyond 1320, since in fact that is the limit. There are factors that go far beyond the weight an airplane can take off and climb with. You also need to be able to withstand normal flight loads. On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%. That is certainly something to think about when considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit.]]>
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.


You should not look at safety margin in terms of operating beyond 1320, since in fact that is the limit. There are factors that go far beyond the weight an airplane can take off and climb with. You also need to be able to withstand normal flight loads. On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%. That is certainly something to think about when considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-19T11:42:42-05:00 2018-02-19T11:42:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49698#p49698
MrMorden wrote:You'd have to define "safe".

Two guys flew CTSWs around the world at 1675lb. Is that safe? Maybe for them as highly experienced ATPs, but not for me with my under 1000 hour Sport Pilot ticket.

Was it structurally safe? Who knows, the CTSW was not designed for weights that high. The wing on the airplane is very strong and I'm sure is okay at that weight, but what about the tail in hard maneuvering or turbulence? What about the landing gear? What is the Va at those weights? All unknowns.

So again...what is "safe"?


Yeah, it is hard to say - pretty much all LSAs operate with the same basic safety margins (gross, stall speeds ) but at the same time differ in their various V speeds. For instance Sting has 165 Vne , which is pretty high in the LSA world ( for instance Sling 2 has 135 knots , quite a bit of difference )
My understanding is that Vne limits are more about flutter risks rather than structural issues but I am still curious why so much difference - is it related to actual design or perhaps to liability issues ( risks vs benefits ) ?]]>
MrMorden wrote:You'd have to define "safe".

Two guys flew CTSWs around the world at 1675lb. Is that safe? Maybe for them as highly experienced ATPs, but not for me with my under 1000 hour Sport Pilot ticket.

Was it structurally safe? Who knows, the CTSW was not designed for weights that high. The wing on the airplane is very strong and I'm sure is okay at that weight, but what about the tail in hard maneuvering or turbulence? What about the landing gear? What is the Va at those weights? All unknowns.

So again...what is "safe"?


Yeah, it is hard to say - pretty much all LSAs operate with the same basic safety margins (gross, stall speeds ) but at the same time differ in their various V speeds. For instance Sting has 165 Vne , which is pretty high in the LSA world ( for instance Sling 2 has 135 knots , quite a bit of difference )
My understanding is that Vne limits are more about flutter risks rather than structural issues but I am still curious why so much difference - is it related to actual design or perhaps to liability issues ( risks vs benefits ) ?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-19T11:55:15-05:00 2018-02-19T11:55:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49700#p49700
FastEddieB wrote:I kinda side with Tim here.

If someone told me my Sky Arrow was actually safe up to 1,450 lbs, how would it affect my operations?

It wouldn’t. Not one little bit.

So what difference would it make? And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?



Obviously it wouldn't effect your operations.

BUT, if you were plane-less and in the market for an LSA, it might be a consideration in comparing the safety and longevity of one plane over another. It provides a cursory insight into the robustness of the design and construction.

(OTOH - don't know how this works. Your plane is experimental and you can now fly as a PP under Basic Med; could you certify your Arrow to a higher weight and take it out of the LSA category?)]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I kinda side with Tim here.

If someone told me my Sky Arrow was actually safe up to 1,450 lbs, how would it affect my operations?

It wouldn’t. Not one little bit.

So what difference would it make? And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?



Obviously it wouldn't effect your operations.

BUT, if you were plane-less and in the market for an LSA, it might be a consideration in comparing the safety and longevity of one plane over another. It provides a cursory insight into the robustness of the design and construction.

(OTOH - don't know how this works. Your plane is experimental and you can now fly as a PP under Basic Med; could you certify your Arrow to a higher weight and take it out of the LSA category?)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-19T12:01:20-05:00 2018-02-19T12:01:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49701#p49701
I’ve learned to do my best to do things “by the book”. It’s often The Most Conservative Action, so there’s that.

But also, it seems that whenever I’ve tried to get away with something that everyone else is getting away with, I’d get caught and made an example of.

So I envision making the choice to not worry about “a few pounds over” gross weight. And then having some sort of incident, even unrelated to the over gross condition. My luck, an FAA team would be right there with scales, and my four decade run of no violations would be toast.

But I suppose on some academic level it’s comforting to know one’s plane is “overbuilt”, even if it makes no practical difference.]]>

I’ve learned to do my best to do things “by the book”. It’s often The Most Conservative Action, so there’s that.

But also, it seems that whenever I’ve tried to get away with something that everyone else is getting away with, I’d get caught and made an example of.

So I envision making the choice to not worry about “a few pounds over” gross weight. And then having some sort of incident, even unrelated to the over gross condition. My luck, an FAA team would be right there with scales, and my four decade run of no violations would be toast.

But I suppose on some academic level it’s comforting to know one’s plane is “overbuilt”, even if it makes no practical difference.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-19T12:08:33-05:00 2018-02-19T12:08:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49702#p49702
Half Fast wrote:

(OTOH - don't know how this works. Your plane is experimental and you can now fly as a PP under Basic Med; could you certify your Arrow to a higher weight and take it out of the LSA category?)


Nope. No modifications allowed that would take it out of Light Sport limitations.]]>
Half Fast wrote:

(OTOH - don't know how this works. Your plane is experimental and you can now fly as a PP under Basic Med; could you certify your Arrow to a higher weight and take it out of the LSA category?)


Nope. No modifications allowed that would take it out of Light Sport limitations.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-19T12:31:56-05:00 2018-02-19T12:31:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49703#p49703
3Dreaming wrote:
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.


You should not look at safety margin in terms of operating beyond 1320, since in fact that is the limit. There are factors that go far beyond the weight an airplane can take off and climb with. You also need to be able to withstand normal flight loads. On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%. That is certainly something to think about when considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit.

Who's considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit? Thanks for making my point. And you have just sent a message that maybe it is OK to consider loading an LSA beyond 1320 pounds. You are setting a bad example especially for your students.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.


You should not look at safety margin in terms of operating beyond 1320, since in fact that is the limit. There are factors that go far beyond the weight an airplane can take off and climb with. You also need to be able to withstand normal flight loads. On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%. That is certainly something to think about when considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit.

Who's considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit? Thanks for making my point. And you have just sent a message that maybe it is OK to consider loading an LSA beyond 1320 pounds. You are setting a bad example especially for your students.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-19T12:38:39-05:00 2018-02-19T12:38:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49704#p49704
On the other hand, if it can only truly handle 1320 pounds or so, its not going to have a lot of reserve performance - if any. You'd probably feel less comfortable taking it to 1320lbs than say the Sling 2.

The Sling 2 thus might be more attractive for that reason.

Not a question of complying with rules or overloading an airplane. A question of which plane might have more reserve performance - and thus be safer and more robust.]]>

On the other hand, if it can only truly handle 1320 pounds or so, its not going to have a lot of reserve performance - if any. You'd probably feel less comfortable taking it to 1320lbs than say the Sling 2.

The Sling 2 thus might be more attractive for that reason.

Not a question of complying with rules or overloading an airplane. A question of which plane might have more reserve performance - and thus be safer and more robust.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-19T12:56:55-05:00 2018-02-19T12:56:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49705#p49705
FastEddieB wrote:I’ve learned to do my best to do things “by the book”. It’s often The Most Conservative Action, so there’s that.




Wouldn't "most conservative action" mean to purchase a plane that is structurally sound for a weight greater than that for which it is certified?]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I’ve learned to do my best to do things “by the book”. It’s often The Most Conservative Action, so there’s that.




Wouldn't "most conservative action" mean to purchase a plane that is structurally sound for a weight greater than that for which it is certified?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T12:57:11-05:00 2018-02-19T12:57:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49706#p49706
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.


You should not look at safety margin in terms of operating beyond 1320, since in fact that is the limit. There are factors that go far beyond the weight an airplane can take off and climb with. You also need to be able to withstand normal flight loads. On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%. That is certainly something to think about when considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit.

Who's considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit? Thanks for making my point. And you have just sent a message that maybe it is OK to consider loading an LSA beyond 1320 pounds. You are setting a bad example especially for your students.


From the statement above no one is considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit. It in no way makes your point. At most he is asking the wrong question to get the answer he is looking for. Asking about increased safety margins does not indicate intent to overload the airplane.

Now I would like you to explain how my saying loading an airplane beyond the limits reduces the safety margin is an indication that I am advocating that it is OK to exceed the gross weight limit. Considering the reduced safety margin if you are thinking about overloading the airplane should be seen as a deterrent, and not as a factor in thinking that it might be OK to overload.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
WDD wrote:So.......

Back to my original question.

How much safety margin is there on LSA planes beyond the 1320 lbs? Do LSA's regularly have performance to spare well above 1320 lbs?

And no this thread isn't on how to overload an LSA beyond 1320 lbs.


You should not look at safety margin in terms of operating beyond 1320, since in fact that is the limit. There are factors that go far beyond the weight an airplane can take off and climb with. You also need to be able to withstand normal flight loads. On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%. That is certainly something to think about when considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit.

Who's considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit? Thanks for making my point. And you have just sent a message that maybe it is OK to consider loading an LSA beyond 1320 pounds. You are setting a bad example especially for your students.


From the statement above no one is considering loading beyond the 1320 pound limit. It in no way makes your point. At most he is asking the wrong question to get the answer he is looking for. Asking about increased safety margins does not indicate intent to overload the airplane.

Now I would like you to explain how my saying loading an airplane beyond the limits reduces the safety margin is an indication that I am advocating that it is OK to exceed the gross weight limit. Considering the reduced safety margin if you are thinking about overloading the airplane should be seen as a deterrent, and not as a factor in thinking that it might be OK to overload.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-19T13:04:05-05:00 2018-02-19T13:04:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49707#p49707 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-02-19T13:10:11-05:00 2018-02-19T13:10:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49708#p49708
That said, knowing that my current cruiser motorcycle is able to hit near 100 on a super slab IS comforting when I'm going the speed limit of 65-70 and want to pass a truck. Much less when I had the Ural and the rig was pegged at about 55-60mph on the slabs with no ponies left in the stable.

I would suspect that flying at 1300lbs gross weight in an airframe 'designed and capable' at 1800lbs gross is more 'comforting' than flying that same gross in an airframe 'designed and capable' at only that 1300lbs max weight? I acknowledge that flying an 1800# rated plane at 1800# again removes that 'comfort zone'.

As someone with a body frame build for traction, not for speed - lol - I would have no problem with LSA's being rated for 1500#, in fact it might mean I could fly with full fuel?]]>

That said, knowing that my current cruiser motorcycle is able to hit near 100 on a super slab IS comforting when I'm going the speed limit of 65-70 and want to pass a truck. Much less when I had the Ural and the rig was pegged at about 55-60mph on the slabs with no ponies left in the stable.

I would suspect that flying at 1300lbs gross weight in an airframe 'designed and capable' at 1800lbs gross is more 'comforting' than flying that same gross in an airframe 'designed and capable' at only that 1300lbs max weight? I acknowledge that flying an 1800# rated plane at 1800# again removes that 'comfort zone'.

As someone with a body frame build for traction, not for speed - lol - I would have no problem with LSA's being rated for 1500#, in fact it might mean I could fly with full fuel?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-19T13:13:40-05:00 2018-02-19T13:13:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49709#p49709 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T13:19:21-05:00 2018-02-19T13:19:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49710#p49710
TimTaylor wrote:I believe our response should be, "never consider loading your LSA beyond the certified weight of 1320 pounds."


The reality is people do consider it. My point was if you are considering it, the reduced safety factor should disuade you. It is one risk factor that is easily mitigated.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I believe our response should be, "never consider loading your LSA beyond the certified weight of 1320 pounds."


The reality is people do consider it. My point was if you are considering it, the reduced safety factor should disuade you. It is one risk factor that is easily mitigated.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-19T13:26:11-05:00 2018-02-19T13:26:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49711#p49711
Yet I know if something unexpected happens I can scoot out of problem. I have a lot of traction on reserve.

And I know that my bike will last forever, vs if I was flogging a ninja 300.]]>

Yet I know if something unexpected happens I can scoot out of problem. I have a lot of traction on reserve.

And I know that my bike will last forever, vs if I was flogging a ninja 300.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-19T16:28:49-05:00 2018-02-19T16:28:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49716#p49716
3Dreaming wrote: On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%.


Actually (and you know this, Tom; this response is for the benefit of others), that's only part of the story. Yes, a 15% increase in weight will reduce safety factor, but by far more than 15%. Here's why:

What leads to fatalities in aircraft accidents is the kinetic energy which must be dissipated while decelerating. Some of that energy (we can debate the percentage, but clearly some of it) gets absorbed by the occupants, leading to traumatic
injury. And KE = 1/2 m v^2.

So, increasing m by 15% starts by increasing energy 15%. That's Strike One. (Stick around; the other strikes are related to velocity).

What velocity do planes crash at? In LSAs, most accidents occur during takeoff and landing, so they occur at or near stall speed. This is one of the reasons for the safety-motivated 45 kt LSA stall speed limit. And stall speed varies with load factor, which in turn is a function of mass. So, when weight went up 15%, stall speed also went up 15%, compounding the Kinetic Energy problem. That's Strike Two.

But wait, there's more. KE = 1/2 m v squared. So Strike Three happens because that 15% safety degradation happening from the v factor occurs twice.

The total increase in KE becomes (1.15)x (1.15) x (1.15) = 1.52. That's a 52% total increase in KE, resulting in a 52% decrease in the margin of safety for occupants in a takeoff or landing LSA accident.

Think about that when someone tells you the LSA rules are arbitrary.

Corollary: all else being equal, a plane flown 15% below it's safe design weight will thus have a 52% greater safety margin in a takeoff or landing accident.]]>
3Dreaming wrote: On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%.


Actually (and you know this, Tom; this response is for the benefit of others), that's only part of the story. Yes, a 15% increase in weight will reduce safety factor, but by far more than 15%. Here's why:

What leads to fatalities in aircraft accidents is the kinetic energy which must be dissipated while decelerating. Some of that energy (we can debate the percentage, but clearly some of it) gets absorbed by the occupants, leading to traumatic
injury. And KE = 1/2 m v^2.

So, increasing m by 15% starts by increasing energy 15%. That's Strike One. (Stick around; the other strikes are related to velocity).

What velocity do planes crash at? In LSAs, most accidents occur during takeoff and landing, so they occur at or near stall speed. This is one of the reasons for the safety-motivated 45 kt LSA stall speed limit. And stall speed varies with load factor, which in turn is a function of mass. So, when weight went up 15%, stall speed also went up 15%, compounding the Kinetic Energy problem. That's Strike Two.

But wait, there's more. KE = 1/2 m v squared. So Strike Three happens because that 15% safety degradation happening from the v factor occurs twice.

The total increase in KE becomes (1.15)x (1.15) x (1.15) = 1.52. That's a 52% total increase in KE, resulting in a 52% decrease in the margin of safety for occupants in a takeoff or landing LSA accident.

Think about that when someone tells you the LSA rules are arbitrary.

Corollary: all else being equal, a plane flown 15% below it's safe design weight will thus have a 52% greater safety margin in a takeoff or landing accident.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-19T16:54:02-05:00 2018-02-19T16:54:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49717#p49717
We have all heard of people flying LSA over gross. I don’t condone it, and I’m sure this happens by accident frequently (guestimated weight of passenger or baggage), but in my opinion, you suddenly become a test pilot above 1,320 pounds.

In my aircraft and my weight, I have to be cautious not to exceed gross weight if carrying a passenger. But I’d rather err on the side of caution and remain under 1,320 than risk even a little above. I have a family and I do all that I can to help assure that I can come home to them after each flight.

I too ride (rode?) a motorcycle. I had a liter bike as well - Ducati ST3 that I sold and went small thinking that it would be “safer.” I currently have a 250cc Adventure Bike that is for sale. Why? Smaller doesn’t change safety in any way, and I deluded myself into thinking that it might. (And hence why my bike is for sale). Flying a LSA offers better safety margins, but the inherent dangers remain the same. As stated above, I would do all that I could to remain complaint with the 1,320 rule to stack the odds in favor of a safe return.]]>

We have all heard of people flying LSA over gross. I don’t condone it, and I’m sure this happens by accident frequently (guestimated weight of passenger or baggage), but in my opinion, you suddenly become a test pilot above 1,320 pounds.

In my aircraft and my weight, I have to be cautious not to exceed gross weight if carrying a passenger. But I’d rather err on the side of caution and remain under 1,320 than risk even a little above. I have a family and I do all that I can to help assure that I can come home to them after each flight.

I too ride (rode?) a motorcycle. I had a liter bike as well - Ducati ST3 that I sold and went small thinking that it would be “safer.” I currently have a 250cc Adventure Bike that is for sale. Why? Smaller doesn’t change safety in any way, and I deluded myself into thinking that it might. (And hence why my bike is for sale). Flying a LSA offers better safety margins, but the inherent dangers remain the same. As stated above, I would do all that I could to remain complaint with the 1,320 rule to stack the odds in favor of a safe return.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-19T17:28:03-05:00 2018-02-19T18:15:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49718#p49718
WDD wrote:On the other hand, if it can only truly handle 1320 pounds or so, its not going to have a lot of reserve performance - if any.


You and most others here probably are aware of this, but the word "performance" here can be misleading.

I've heard time and time again that a plane limited to 3,200 lbs, let's say, has "performed" just fine up to 3,500 lbs, with excellent rate of climb even at the higher weight. I honestly think that many think that engine output and rate of climb are what establish maximum weight. It may be a factor, but weight limits are more often the result of loads on the structure at higher weights, regardless of horsepower reserves. I guess "performance" can include the ability of the structure to handle loads, but again, I don't think thats the way its normally used.]]>
WDD wrote:On the other hand, if it can only truly handle 1320 pounds or so, its not going to have a lot of reserve performance - if any.


You and most others here probably are aware of this, but the word "performance" here can be misleading.

I've heard time and time again that a plane limited to 3,200 lbs, let's say, has "performed" just fine up to 3,500 lbs, with excellent rate of climb even at the higher weight. I honestly think that many think that engine output and rate of climb are what establish maximum weight. It may be a factor, but weight limits are more often the result of loads on the structure at higher weights, regardless of horsepower reserves. I guess "performance" can include the ability of the structure to handle loads, but again, I don't think thats the way its normally used.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-19T17:59:43-05:00 2018-02-19T17:59:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49720#p49720
FastEddieB wrote:
WDD wrote:On the other hand, if it can only truly handle 1320 pounds or so, its not going to have a lot of reserve performance - if any.


You and most others here probably are aware of this, but the word "performance" here can be misleading.

I've heard time and time again that a plane limited to 3,200 lbs, let's say, has "performed" just fine up to 3,500 lbs, with excellent rate of climb even at the higher weight. I honestly think that many think that engine output and rate of climb are what establish maximum weight. It may be a factor, but weight limits are more often the result of loads on the structure at higher weights, regardless of horsepower reserves. I guess "performance" can include the ability of the structure to handle loads, but again, I don't think thats the way its normally uses.


Yeah, that could be what's throwing off the discussion. When I stated "performance", I was thinking the structure could handle more loads, landing gear more robust, etc. I was also thinking that if a plane could handle itself well at 1600 pounds (handling well, agility, be able to get out of a stall and spin), it would be even better - more reserve performance - that a plane that was maxed out at 1320 by design.

The discussion seems to keep bouncing back to "don't overload / go beyond 1320 lbs. Which isn't the premise of the question. Perhaps think of it this way. "Do certain LSA airplanes provide a benefit over others because we WON'T load it beyond 1320lbs ?"]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
WDD wrote:On the other hand, if it can only truly handle 1320 pounds or so, its not going to have a lot of reserve performance - if any.


You and most others here probably are aware of this, but the word "performance" here can be misleading.

I've heard time and time again that a plane limited to 3,200 lbs, let's say, has "performed" just fine up to 3,500 lbs, with excellent rate of climb even at the higher weight. I honestly think that many think that engine output and rate of climb are what establish maximum weight. It may be a factor, but weight limits are more often the result of loads on the structure at higher weights, regardless of horsepower reserves. I guess "performance" can include the ability of the structure to handle loads, but again, I don't think thats the way its normally uses.


Yeah, that could be what's throwing off the discussion. When I stated "performance", I was thinking the structure could handle more loads, landing gear more robust, etc. I was also thinking that if a plane could handle itself well at 1600 pounds (handling well, agility, be able to get out of a stall and spin), it would be even better - more reserve performance - that a plane that was maxed out at 1320 by design.

The discussion seems to keep bouncing back to "don't overload / go beyond 1320 lbs. Which isn't the premise of the question. Perhaps think of it this way. "Do certain LSA airplanes provide a benefit over others because we WON'T load it beyond 1320lbs ?"]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-19T18:22:56-05:00 2018-02-19T18:22:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49721#p49721
WDD wrote:"Do certain LSA airplanes provide a benefit over others because we WON'T load it beyond 1320lbs ?"


I'd say in the real world, "Not really".

I suppose if someone told me my plane's airframe had been tested to 2,000 lbs, let's say, I'd think that was an interesting factoid and store it away in the back of my mind.

But I would not see it as a benefit. If Sky Arrows are not routinely falling out of the sky due to structural failures - and I don't know of any that have - it becomes difficult for me to see any reasonable scenario where that added robustness would provide a practical benefit to me. A theoretical benefit? Maybe in some bizarre edge case. But planes, including Light Sports, are already built with large safety margins in place. Making them even larger is unlikely to ever provide a real life benefit.

Though I see your point. In theory.]]>
WDD wrote:"Do certain LSA airplanes provide a benefit over others because we WON'T load it beyond 1320lbs ?"


I'd say in the real world, "Not really".

I suppose if someone told me my plane's airframe had been tested to 2,000 lbs, let's say, I'd think that was an interesting factoid and store it away in the back of my mind.

But I would not see it as a benefit. If Sky Arrows are not routinely falling out of the sky due to structural failures - and I don't know of any that have - it becomes difficult for me to see any reasonable scenario where that added robustness would provide a practical benefit to me. A theoretical benefit? Maybe in some bizarre edge case. But planes, including Light Sports, are already built with large safety margins in place. Making them even larger is unlikely to ever provide a real life benefit.

Though I see your point. In theory.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T18:45:49-05:00 2018-02-19T18:45:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49722#p49722
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%.


Actually (and you know this, Tom; this response is for the benefit of others), that's only part of the story. Yes, a 15% increase in weight will reduce safety factor, but by far more than 15%. Here's why:


When I made that post I was speaking only to the structure of the aircraft in flight, and not energy in a crash.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: On a airplane like a LSA an increase of 200 pounds will reduce your safety factor by about 15%.


Actually (and you know this, Tom; this response is for the benefit of others), that's only part of the story. Yes, a 15% increase in weight will reduce safety factor, but by far more than 15%. Here's why:


When I made that post I was speaking only to the structure of the aircraft in flight, and not energy in a crash.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T18:48:30-05:00 2018-02-19T18:48:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49723#p49723
FastEddieB wrote:
Half Fast wrote:

(OTOH - don't know how this works. Your plane is experimental and you can now fly as a PP under Basic Med; could you certify your Arrow to a higher weight and take it out of the LSA category?)


Nope. No modifications allowed that would take it out of Light Sport limitations.


Actually it could be moved to experimental exhibition category at a higher gross weight. However the operating limitations would make the airplane less useable.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Half Fast wrote:

(OTOH - don't know how this works. Your plane is experimental and you can now fly as a PP under Basic Med; could you certify your Arrow to a higher weight and take it out of the LSA category?)


Nope. No modifications allowed that would take it out of Light Sport limitations.


Actually it could be moved to experimental exhibition category at a higher gross weight. However the operating limitations would make the airplane less useable.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-19T19:39:58-05:00 2018-02-19T19:39:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49724#p49724
FastEddieB wrote:
And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?
]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?
]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-19T20:01:06-05:00 2018-02-19T20:01:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49725#p49725
3Dreaming wrote:When I made that post I was speaking only to the structure of the aircraft in flight, and not energy in a crash.


Yes, Tom, I understood that. I'm engaging in mild thread drift chiefly because I am less concerned about structural failure of the airframe than I am of its occupants.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:When I made that post I was speaking only to the structure of the aircraft in flight, and not energy in a crash.


Yes, Tom, I understood that. I'm engaging in mild thread drift chiefly because I am less concerned about structural failure of the airframe than I am of its occupants.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-19T20:09:03-05:00 2018-02-19T20:22:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49727#p49727
What if I tow a banner at night in IFR above 10,000 feet for hire over 1320 pounds with 2 passengers? Would that be a problem? Maybe I could fly a twin but only use one engine? (I've done that plenty of times.)]]>

What if I tow a banner at night in IFR above 10,000 feet for hire over 1320 pounds with 2 passengers? Would that be a problem? Maybe I could fly a twin but only use one engine? (I've done that plenty of times.)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-19T20:14:38-05:00 2018-02-19T20:14:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49728#p49728 Sure. Just use the tried and true Heineman/Savage Mythbusters method of practical application :D .
Load and fly one, incrementally increasing the weight, until the wings fall off. Then you'll know, all the way to the ground :shock: . Oh, and, wear a parachute. It helps. OK Moderator, you can ban me now. :wink:]]>
Sure. Just use the tried and true Heineman/Savage Mythbusters method of practical application :D .
Load and fly one, incrementally increasing the weight, until the wings fall off. Then you'll know, all the way to the ground :shock: . Oh, and, wear a parachute. It helps. OK Moderator, you can ban me now. :wink:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-19T20:19:06-05:00 2018-02-19T20:19:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49729#p49729
HAPPYDAN wrote:OK Moderator, you can ban me now. :wink:


There will be no banning - chiefly because everybody here was thinking the same thing. :)]]>
HAPPYDAN wrote:OK Moderator, you can ban me now. :wink:


There will be no banning - chiefly because everybody here was thinking the same thing. :)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Nomore767]]> 2018-02-19T20:54:49-05:00 2018-02-19T20:54:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49730#p49730
WDD wrote:An LSA needs to be no more than 1320 lbs to be legal for a Sport Pilot to fly.

Hence, Vans RV 12, Sling 2, etc are rated at 1320.

But is it possible to find out what it can really safely carry? That is, how much margin do you have?

A Sling 2 looks nice because while we would load it only to 1320 lbs, it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more. A nice safety margin. Same probably for the Jabiru. Have no idea what the RV 12 could really carry.

Thoughts?


How long is a piece of string?]]>
WDD wrote:An LSA needs to be no more than 1320 lbs to be legal for a Sport Pilot to fly.

Hence, Vans RV 12, Sling 2, etc are rated at 1320.

But is it possible to find out what it can really safely carry? That is, how much margin do you have?

A Sling 2 looks nice because while we would load it only to 1320 lbs, it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more. A nice safety margin. Same probably for the Jabiru. Have no idea what the RV 12 could really carry.

Thoughts?


How long is a piece of string?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-19T21:19:54-05:00 2018-02-19T21:19:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49732#p49732
WDD wrote:it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more.


Registration issues notwithstanding, I wonder how one determines that additional 240 lb figure from from "it looks like". Structural analysis by visual inspection?]]>
WDD wrote:it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more.


Registration issues notwithstanding, I wonder how one determines that additional 240 lb figure from from "it looks like". Structural analysis by visual inspection?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-19T22:11:57-05:00 2018-02-19T22:11:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49734#p49734
TimTaylor wrote:If we're going to consider overloading an LSA, we might as well consider flying at night and IFR. Why the hell not? If you're inclined to ignore the rules, why adhere to any of them? What about flying above 10,000 feet? Who can that possibly harm?

What if I tow a banner at night in IFR above 10,000 feet for hire over 1320 pounds with 2 passengers? Would that be a problem? Maybe I could fly a twin but only use one engine? (I've done that plenty of times.)


Why do you keep making the assumtion that someone is considering overloading a LSA? You are on a rant for no reason at all, and apparently you don't even know the rules.

Any LSA can be legally flown above 10,000 feet. Any LSA can be flown at night if properly equipped. Some LSA can be flown IFR if they have the propper equipment, transponder, and pitot static system checks. I have flown my CTLS at night, and could fly it above 10,000 feet if I chose to do so.The sister ship to my airplane can be be legally flown IFR at night above 10,000 feet.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:If we're going to consider overloading an LSA, we might as well consider flying at night and IFR. Why the hell not? If you're inclined to ignore the rules, why adhere to any of them? What about flying above 10,000 feet? Who can that possibly harm?

What if I tow a banner at night in IFR above 10,000 feet for hire over 1320 pounds with 2 passengers? Would that be a problem? Maybe I could fly a twin but only use one engine? (I've done that plenty of times.)


Why do you keep making the assumtion that someone is considering overloading a LSA? You are on a rant for no reason at all, and apparently you don't even know the rules.

Any LSA can be legally flown above 10,000 feet. Any LSA can be flown at night if properly equipped. Some LSA can be flown IFR if they have the propper equipment, transponder, and pitot static system checks. I have flown my CTLS at night, and could fly it above 10,000 feet if I chose to do so.The sister ship to my airplane can be be legally flown IFR at night above 10,000 feet.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-19T23:02:24-05:00 2018-02-19T23:02:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49737#p49737 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-19T23:47:45-05:00 2018-02-19T23:47:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49738#p49738
drseti wrote:
WDD wrote:it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more.


Registration issues notwithstanding, I wonder how one determines that additional 240 lb figure from from "it looks like". Structural analysis by visual inspection?


That's what they list it as if you don't register it as an LSA.]]>
drseti wrote:
WDD wrote:it looks like if you registered it as a non LSA it can carry 240 lbs more.


Registration issues notwithstanding, I wonder how one determines that additional 240 lb figure from from "it looks like". Structural analysis by visual inspection?


That's what they list it as if you don't register it as an LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-19T23:53:28-05:00 2018-02-19T23:53:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49739#p49739
TimTaylor wrote:If we're going to consider overloading an LSA, we might as well consider flying at night and IFR. Why the hell not? If you're inclined to ignore the rules, why adhere to any of them? What about flying above 10,000 feet? Who can that possibly harm?

What if I tow a banner at night in IFR above 10,000 feet for hire over 1320 pounds with 2 passengers? Would that be a problem? Maybe I could fly a twin but only use one engine? (I've done that plenty of times.)


Who are you trying to argue with? No offense, but you're pretending things were said just so you can argue against them.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:If we're going to consider overloading an LSA, we might as well consider flying at night and IFR. Why the hell not? If you're inclined to ignore the rules, why adhere to any of them? What about flying above 10,000 feet? Who can that possibly harm?

What if I tow a banner at night in IFR above 10,000 feet for hire over 1320 pounds with 2 passengers? Would that be a problem? Maybe I could fly a twin but only use one engine? (I've done that plenty of times.)


Who are you trying to argue with? No offense, but you're pretending things were said just so you can argue against them.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-20T00:20:27-05:00 2018-02-20T00:20:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49740#p49740 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-20T09:02:21-05:00 2018-02-20T09:02:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49742#p49742 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-20T10:06:51-05:00 2018-02-20T10:06:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49744#p49744
TimTaylor wrote:I thought this was Sport Pilot Talk.


It was nice of you to use your better judgement and remove the previous post that was in this space. Yes this is Sport Pilot Talk, if you look to the top of the page it says it is for, "The discussion forum for Sport Pilots and Light Sport Aircraft". Were you not talking about Light Sport Aircraft, because I was. You were confusing pilot limitations with aircraft limitations. The 1320 pound gross weight is a aircraft limitation. Flying IFR can be a aircraft limitation, but it is definitely a sport pilot limitation. Flying at night or above 10,000 feet is a pilot limitation, not an airplane limitation as you implied.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I thought this was Sport Pilot Talk.


It was nice of you to use your better judgement and remove the previous post that was in this space. Yes this is Sport Pilot Talk, if you look to the top of the page it says it is for, "The discussion forum for Sport Pilots and Light Sport Aircraft". Were you not talking about Light Sport Aircraft, because I was. You were confusing pilot limitations with aircraft limitations. The 1320 pound gross weight is a aircraft limitation. Flying IFR can be a aircraft limitation, but it is definitely a sport pilot limitation. Flying at night or above 10,000 feet is a pilot limitation, not an airplane limitation as you implied.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-20T10:11:34-05:00 2018-02-20T10:11:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49745#p49745 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-20T10:32:50-05:00 2018-02-20T10:32:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49746#p49746
TimTaylor wrote:I removed no post except when I told you to ****. I am confusing nothing. I was making an example of ignoring the rules. Please just speak for yourself and I will speak for myself. Let's let Paul do the moderating. Thanks.


Removed or edited, what ever you want to call it. I saw what was there, and you know what was there.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I removed no post except when I told you to ****. I am confusing nothing. I was making an example of ignoring the rules. Please just speak for yourself and I will speak for myself. Let's let Paul do the moderating. Thanks.


Removed or edited, what ever you want to call it. I saw what was there, and you know what was there.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-20T10:44:04-05:00 2018-02-20T10:44:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49747#p49747
3Dreaming wrote:Removed or edited, what ever you want to call it. I saw what was there, and you know what was there.

Darn! . . . Looks like a fly landed in the ointment again. :D
Agree with Paul . . . time to move along.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Removed or edited, what ever you want to call it. I saw what was there, and you know what was there.

Darn! . . . Looks like a fly landed in the ointment again. :D
Agree with Paul . . . time to move along.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-20T10:45:49-05:00 2018-02-20T10:45:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49748#p49748
drseti wrote:OK, gang, we've all had our say, and beaten this issue to death. I suggest we move on now .


I’ll respect that.

But I did have a couple of points rattling around in my head related to this topic.

Look for a new thread soon, working title: “Pick and Choose?”]]>
drseti wrote:OK, gang, we've all had our say, and beaten this issue to death. I suggest we move on now .


I’ll respect that.

But I did have a couple of points rattling around in my head related to this topic.

Look for a new thread soon, working title: “Pick and Choose?”]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-20T11:02:55-05:00 2018-02-20T11:02:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49749#p49749
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I removed no post except when I told you to ****. I am confusing nothing. I was making an example of ignoring the rules. Please just speak for yourself and I will speak for myself. Let's let Paul do the moderating. Thanks.


Removed or edited, what ever you want to call it. I saw what was there, and you know what was there.

Remind me then. Maybe I forgot. Seem like maybe I posted something and immediately deleted it. If so, I’m sure it was deserved.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I removed no post except when I told you to ****. I am confusing nothing. I was making an example of ignoring the rules. Please just speak for yourself and I will speak for myself. Let's let Paul do the moderating. Thanks.


Removed or edited, what ever you want to call it. I saw what was there, and you know what was there.

Remind me then. Maybe I forgot. Seem like maybe I posted something and immediately deleted it. If so, I’m sure it was deserved.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-02-20T11:14:23-05:00 2018-02-20T11:14:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49750#p49750
If two airplanes both have 100hp engines and similar empty weights, one is not going to perform better than the other just because it’s allowed to operate at 1320lb. To the contrary, at 1600lb that airplane will probably be a dog, with performance like a Cessna 152 on a hot day. At 1320lb the two airplanes will perform similarly, assuming similar layout, drag, aerodynamics, etc.

Extra structural strength can help in some circumstances, but only those where the design limits of the airplane are exceeded by doing something you shouldn’t...over-g while maneuvering, flying into severe turbulence/storms, or pancaking in on the gear, for example.]]>

If two airplanes both have 100hp engines and similar empty weights, one is not going to perform better than the other just because it’s allowed to operate at 1320lb. To the contrary, at 1600lb that airplane will probably be a dog, with performance like a Cessna 152 on a hot day. At 1320lb the two airplanes will perform similarly, assuming similar layout, drag, aerodynamics, etc.

Extra structural strength can help in some circumstances, but only those where the design limits of the airplane are exceeded by doing something you shouldn’t...over-g while maneuvering, flying into severe turbulence/storms, or pancaking in on the gear, for example.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Merlinspop]]> 2018-02-20T11:58:27-05:00 2018-02-20T11:58:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49752#p49752
BUT... When I read the OP's post... I didn't take his question to be another way to ask that question. what I *thought* he was asking, and I wish we would discuss (with a degree of civility, please), is "How do I find out the ultimate demonstrated structural strength of a given LSA model?" I did a search just now and couldn't find (it was a brief search) the positive and negative load factors that SLSAs must meet. Does anyone have that handy?

I also seem to remember that, per the standards, the manufacturer does not need to complete physical testing to verify that their design meets this standard, but rather a calculated load limit of the design will suffice. This would give me a bit of pause, frankly. I would be much happier to see results of actual testing to destruction of a test article. This is one reason why I like the Carbon Cub so much (not that I can afford one). They have tested the airplane to determine it's real, ultimate strength, and based on that, have set a much higher weight for their E-AB version. This would make me much much more comfortable knowing that a Carbon Cub could survive a wake encounter or some other event that may put excessive load on the airframe. I would have less confidence in other aircraft that have never been tested to destruction. Nowhere in this have I stated or implied any intention whatsoever to exceed the 1320 pound LSA limit. Only wanting to know how strong is an airframe at the 1320 pound weight before parts deform and then when they fail.

Now, this is probably a moot question, as we aren't seeing SLSA's folding up wings and tail feathers left and right. But still, if I'm considering buying an airplane and putting one of my sons in it, I'd kinda like to know just how robust this airplane is. THAT, I thought, was the gist of the OP.]]>

BUT... When I read the OP's post... I didn't take his question to be another way to ask that question. what I *thought* he was asking, and I wish we would discuss (with a degree of civility, please), is "How do I find out the ultimate demonstrated structural strength of a given LSA model?" I did a search just now and couldn't find (it was a brief search) the positive and negative load factors that SLSAs must meet. Does anyone have that handy?

I also seem to remember that, per the standards, the manufacturer does not need to complete physical testing to verify that their design meets this standard, but rather a calculated load limit of the design will suffice. This would give me a bit of pause, frankly. I would be much happier to see results of actual testing to destruction of a test article. This is one reason why I like the Carbon Cub so much (not that I can afford one). They have tested the airplane to determine it's real, ultimate strength, and based on that, have set a much higher weight for their E-AB version. This would make me much much more comfortable knowing that a Carbon Cub could survive a wake encounter or some other event that may put excessive load on the airframe. I would have less confidence in other aircraft that have never been tested to destruction. Nowhere in this have I stated or implied any intention whatsoever to exceed the 1320 pound LSA limit. Only wanting to know how strong is an airframe at the 1320 pound weight before parts deform and then when they fail.

Now, this is probably a moot question, as we aren't seeing SLSA's folding up wings and tail feathers left and right. But still, if I'm considering buying an airplane and putting one of my sons in it, I'd kinda like to know just how robust this airplane is. THAT, I thought, was the gist of the OP.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-20T12:14:18-05:00 2018-02-20T12:14:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49754#p49754
drseti wrote:OK, gang, we've all had our say, and beaten this issue to death. I suggest we move on now .

Thanks Paul. I am moving on and will not respond further.]]>
drseti wrote:OK, gang, we've all had our say, and beaten this issue to death. I suggest we move on now .

Thanks Paul. I am moving on and will not respond further.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-20T15:05:35-05:00 2018-02-20T15:05:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49758#p49758
MrMorden wrote:I think the “reserve performance” argument is a bit misleading. Almost all popular LSA have engines in the 80-120hp range. Thinking an airplane that can fly at 1600lb must perform better than one only “good” to 1320lb ignores the primary performance attributes: power to weight, empty weight, and control harmony.

If two airplanes both have 100hp engines and similar empty weights, one is not going to perform better than the other just because it’s allowed to operate at 1320lb. To the contrary, at 1600lb that airplane will probably be a dog, with performance like a Cessna 152 on a hot day. At 1320lb the two airplanes will perform similarly, assuming similar layout, drag, aerodynamics, etc.

Extra structural strength can help in some circumstances, but only those where the design limits of the airplane are exceeded by doing something you shouldn’t...over-g while maneuvering, flying into severe turbulence/storms, or pancaking in on the gear, for example.


Interesting - a different way for me to think about "performance". Thanks -]]>
MrMorden wrote:I think the “reserve performance” argument is a bit misleading. Almost all popular LSA have engines in the 80-120hp range. Thinking an airplane that can fly at 1600lb must perform better than one only “good” to 1320lb ignores the primary performance attributes: power to weight, empty weight, and control harmony.

If two airplanes both have 100hp engines and similar empty weights, one is not going to perform better than the other just because it’s allowed to operate at 1320lb. To the contrary, at 1600lb that airplane will probably be a dog, with performance like a Cessna 152 on a hot day. At 1320lb the two airplanes will perform similarly, assuming similar layout, drag, aerodynamics, etc.

Extra structural strength can help in some circumstances, but only those where the design limits of the airplane are exceeded by doing something you shouldn’t...over-g while maneuvering, flying into severe turbulence/storms, or pancaking in on the gear, for example.


Interesting - a different way for me to think about "performance". Thanks -]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-20T15:15:55-05:00 2018-02-20T15:15:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49759#p49759
Merlinspop wrote: Only wanting to know how strong is an airframe at the 1320 pound weight before parts deform and then when they fail.
Now, this is probably a moot question, as we aren't seeing SLSA's folding up wings and tail feathers left and right. But still, if I'm considering buying an airplane and putting one of my sons in it, I'd kinda like to know just how robust this airplane is. THAT, I thought, was the gist of the OP.


Yes -

Folks, didn't mean to trip wire a land mine here. What I've learned from just the nature of the responses is that there seems to be some past history of Sport Pilots who wanted to go beyond the 1320 lbs. Maybe I'm too simplistic, but I have visions of the CG being off, the plane not gaining altitude as it should, not getting out of a stall or spin, and generally not being as controllable as it should. Or always wondering if it will get that way if I hit turbulence.

So, thanks for the spirited discussion. Carry on.........]]>
Merlinspop wrote: Only wanting to know how strong is an airframe at the 1320 pound weight before parts deform and then when they fail.
Now, this is probably a moot question, as we aren't seeing SLSA's folding up wings and tail feathers left and right. But still, if I'm considering buying an airplane and putting one of my sons in it, I'd kinda like to know just how robust this airplane is. THAT, I thought, was the gist of the OP.


Yes -

Folks, didn't mean to trip wire a land mine here. What I've learned from just the nature of the responses is that there seems to be some past history of Sport Pilots who wanted to go beyond the 1320 lbs. Maybe I'm too simplistic, but I have visions of the CG being off, the plane not gaining altitude as it should, not getting out of a stall or spin, and generally not being as controllable as it should. Or always wondering if it will get that way if I hit turbulence.

So, thanks for the spirited discussion. Carry on.........]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-20T15:47:40-05:00 2018-02-20T15:47:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49762#p49762 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-20T16:26:03-05:00 2018-02-20T16:26:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49763#p49763
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:. The version they sell abroad is no different structurally than the version sold here. However the certification is. What it says is what you get...1320 is 1320. Want or need more, go experimental or move across the pond....


Or..... add floats! You can take the same plane and go up a hundred pounds or so by virtue of it being able to operate on water.]]>
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:. The version they sell abroad is no different structurally than the version sold here. However the certification is. What it says is what you get...1320 is 1320. Want or need more, go experimental or move across the pond....


Or..... add floats! You can take the same plane and go up a hundred pounds or so by virtue of it being able to operate on water.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-20T16:50:16-05:00 2018-02-20T16:50:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49764#p49764
FastEddieB wrote:
And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?


1) It's winter, I'm bored to death.
2) Bad weather has cancelled out my last 3 scheduled flight lessons.
3) Looks like this weekend will be a scrub as well.
4) Might as well take advantage of this "dead time" to learn as much as I can.
5) Did I mention it's winter, no flying, bored to death?]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
And why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?


1) It's winter, I'm bored to death.
2) Bad weather has cancelled out my last 3 scheduled flight lessons.
3) Looks like this weekend will be a scrub as well.
4) Might as well take advantage of this "dead time" to learn as much as I can.
5) Did I mention it's winter, no flying, bored to death?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-20T17:01:29-05:00 2018-02-20T17:01:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49765#p49765
FastEddieB wrote:why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?


And furthermore, Eddie, why do there have to be rhetorical questions?]]>
FastEddieB wrote:why even waste time on pointless hypotheticals?


And furthermore, Eddie, why do there have to be rhetorical questions?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-20T19:00:21-05:00 2018-02-20T19:00:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49767#p49767
If an aircraft 'can' carry more than it is certified for, it in no way implies it is a "safer airplane".

VA, maneuvering speed, is set based on the aircraft at maximum gross weight and is the speed it will Stall at before the G limits are exceeded. If you are less than 1320 lbs (for LSA), you will exceed your structural limits before you reach VA. In that case it is moot if the spar can carry 10,000 pounds. When it comes to VA, heaver is better.

What are the G limits (load factor) of an LSA? Well they are aircraft specific. Most will be +4g's and -2g's, flaps UP!

The Sting drops to +2g's -2g's with flaps down.

Gobosh is only +4g's -1g flaps up and drops to +2g's 0g with flaps down.

So what happens when those limits are exceeded? It does not necessarily mean the wings fall off. Recall the V tail Bonanza VNE fail mode. The stabilizers would twist throwing such a tremendous negative g load that the engine mount would break off upward and that big Continental would go through the windshield. Outer wing panels would come off somewhere along this scenario too.

So what does break? The weakest part or parts. Could be the flashing beacon, taking a piece of the rudder with it. Could be your seat, glare shield, fuel pump, trim actuator, etc.

So don't think that a greater gross weight potential implies a safer airplane. Too many other factors are in there.]]>

If an aircraft 'can' carry more than it is certified for, it in no way implies it is a "safer airplane".

VA, maneuvering speed, is set based on the aircraft at maximum gross weight and is the speed it will Stall at before the G limits are exceeded. If you are less than 1320 lbs (for LSA), you will exceed your structural limits before you reach VA. In that case it is moot if the spar can carry 10,000 pounds. When it comes to VA, heaver is better.

What are the G limits (load factor) of an LSA? Well they are aircraft specific. Most will be +4g's and -2g's, flaps UP!

The Sting drops to +2g's -2g's with flaps down.

Gobosh is only +4g's -1g flaps up and drops to +2g's 0g with flaps down.

So what happens when those limits are exceeded? It does not necessarily mean the wings fall off. Recall the V tail Bonanza VNE fail mode. The stabilizers would twist throwing such a tremendous negative g load that the engine mount would break off upward and that big Continental would go through the windshield. Outer wing panels would come off somewhere along this scenario too.

So what does break? The weakest part or parts. Could be the flashing beacon, taking a piece of the rudder with it. Could be your seat, glare shield, fuel pump, trim actuator, etc.

So don't think that a greater gross weight potential implies a safer airplane. Too many other factors are in there.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Mark Gregor]]> 2018-02-20T21:06:48-05:00 2018-02-20T21:06:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49772#p49772
This should be very important to potential purchasers because in most cases (although not always as Jim pointed out above) this indicates a safer, stronger and more durable aircraft.
For example, of the two aircraft the the OP mentioned one has already had three airframe SBs that came about because of failures in the field. That should get your attention.
The other aircraft mentioned has had regular landing gear failures that has led to landing incidents and accidents. This type of accident doesn’t usually cause injury although the pilots ends up with a broken plane, damage history, an accident on their FAA pilot record and likely insurance issues.

Most times the aircraft with the highest useful loads are at the price of safety and durability.

The trend to heavier LSAs is mainly due the reasons mentioned above.

You might want to consider this. Currently the best selling LSA in the USA is also the heaviest. It is sold at a higher gross weight outside of LSA. It enjoys a very good safety and durability record. Many of you know I work for Tecnam. I wish we had the best selling aircraft in the usa mentioned above but we do not. At least not yet.

I am not advocating flying overweight so please don’t come back with that. It’s just not as simple as we might like.


Mark]]>

This should be very important to potential purchasers because in most cases (although not always as Jim pointed out above) this indicates a safer, stronger and more durable aircraft.
For example, of the two aircraft the the OP mentioned one has already had three airframe SBs that came about because of failures in the field. That should get your attention.
The other aircraft mentioned has had regular landing gear failures that has led to landing incidents and accidents. This type of accident doesn’t usually cause injury although the pilots ends up with a broken plane, damage history, an accident on their FAA pilot record and likely insurance issues.

Most times the aircraft with the highest useful loads are at the price of safety and durability.

The trend to heavier LSAs is mainly due the reasons mentioned above.

You might want to consider this. Currently the best selling LSA in the USA is also the heaviest. It is sold at a higher gross weight outside of LSA. It enjoys a very good safety and durability record. Many of you know I work for Tecnam. I wish we had the best selling aircraft in the usa mentioned above but we do not. At least not yet.

I am not advocating flying overweight so please don’t come back with that. It’s just not as simple as we might like.


Mark]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Mark Gregor]]> 2018-02-20T21:15:03-05:00 2018-02-20T21:15:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49774#p49774
I understand and respect that cost dictates much of what can or can not do regardless of our wants.

Mark]]>

I understand and respect that cost dictates much of what can or can not do regardless of our wants.

Mark]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-20T21:29:59-05:00 2018-02-20T21:29:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49775#p49775
Just curious ...]]>

Just curious ...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Mark Gregor]]> 2018-02-20T21:53:18-05:00 2018-02-20T21:53:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49776#p49776
No it is not the Sling. I was thinking of another aircraft that was not mentioned. Sorry, my mistake.

Mark]]>

No it is not the Sling. I was thinking of another aircraft that was not mentioned. Sorry, my mistake.

Mark]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-21T06:30:20-05:00 2018-02-21T06:30:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49780#p49780
But you have to keep in mind that a things like a history landing incidents are only cause for a question. Our Gobosh had a rash of flat spots on the main tires. People were landing while pressing on the toe brakes. This was a combination of new pilots and a design that made it easy to do. Other aircraft that were used in training or by low time pilots suffered gear issues.

So a 'history' raises a question as to cause but is not, by itself, an indictment of a make/model :wink:]]>

But you have to keep in mind that a things like a history landing incidents are only cause for a question. Our Gobosh had a rash of flat spots on the main tires. People were landing while pressing on the toe brakes. This was a combination of new pilots and a design that made it easy to do. Other aircraft that were used in training or by low time pilots suffered gear issues.

So a 'history' raises a question as to cause but is not, by itself, an indictment of a make/model :wink:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Merlinspop]]> 2018-02-21T07:36:03-05:00 2018-02-21T07:36:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49782#p49782
Jim Hardin wrote:I don't see why we are so careful to keep identity a secret... If an aircraft has a record/history, that isn't a secret but not everyone has the knowledge of where to research something.
So a 'history' raises a question as to cause but is not, by itself, an indictment of a make/model :wink:

I think Mark just wants to avoid sounding like he's trashing a competitor's product. I can respect that.]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:I don't see why we are so careful to keep identity a secret... If an aircraft has a record/history, that isn't a secret but not everyone has the knowledge of where to research something.
So a 'history' raises a question as to cause but is not, by itself, an indictment of a make/model :wink:

I think Mark just wants to avoid sounding like he's trashing a competitor's product. I can respect that.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-21T10:16:58-05:00 2018-02-21T10:16:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49786#p49786
Merlinspop wrote:I think Mark just wants to avoid sounding like he's trashing a competitor's product. I can respect that.


Oh, I agree. I can be very vague if I want and unless it involves a well known defect or something unique to a perticular aircraft, I will likely avoid mentioning make and model.

IE: Does anyone know how to fill a Remox GX without overflow and getting gas all over your feet? vs try to stand upwind when fueling to prevent overflow spray getting all over you.

The first is model specific but the second is pretty general and actually aimed at my cub cadet lawn mower :D]]>
Merlinspop wrote:I think Mark just wants to avoid sounding like he's trashing a competitor's product. I can respect that.


Oh, I agree. I can be very vague if I want and unless it involves a well known defect or something unique to a perticular aircraft, I will likely avoid mentioning make and model.

IE: Does anyone know how to fill a Remox GX without overflow and getting gas all over your feet? vs try to stand upwind when fueling to prevent overflow spray getting all over you.

The first is model specific but the second is pretty general and actually aimed at my cub cadet lawn mower :D]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T12:00:46-05:00 2018-02-21T12:00:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49788#p49788
Jim Hardin wrote: the second is pretty general and actually aimed at my cub cadet lawn mower :D


I'm so glad you clarified that, Jim. When I first moved to the Lock Haven area 3 decades back, I was surprised to see dozens of ads in the local paper for Cub Cadets a unbelievably low prices. Now, I had been expecting to see numerous Cubs available hereabouts, and was quite familiar with the various J models, the Cruiser, and the SuperCub, but I had never heard of a model called the Cadet. If only someone had included the words "lawn mower," that would have saved me a lot of confusion.]]>
Jim Hardin wrote: the second is pretty general and actually aimed at my cub cadet lawn mower :D


I'm so glad you clarified that, Jim. When I first moved to the Lock Haven area 3 decades back, I was surprised to see dozens of ads in the local paper for Cub Cadets a unbelievably low prices. Now, I had been expecting to see numerous Cubs available hereabouts, and was quite familiar with the various J models, the Cruiser, and the SuperCub, but I had never heard of a model called the Cadet. If only someone had included the words "lawn mower," that would have saved me a lot of confusion.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-21T12:29:48-05:00 2018-02-21T12:29:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49789#p49789
drseti wrote:
Jim Hardin wrote: the second is pretty general and actually aimed at my cub cadet lawn mower :D


I'm so glad you clarified that, Jim. When I first moved to the Lock Haven area 3 decades back, I was surprised to see dozens of ads in the local paper for Cub Cadets a unbelievably low prices. Now, I had been expecting to see numerous Cubs available hereabouts, and was quite familiar with the various J models, the Cruiser, and the SuperCub, but I had never heard of a model called the Cadet. If only someone had included the words "lawn mower," that would have saved me a lot of confusion.


I have a friend who would be quick to point out that a Cub Cadet is not a lawn mower, it is a lawn tractor. At least that's the way it used to be before they started selling junk based on name recognition.]]>
drseti wrote:
Jim Hardin wrote: the second is pretty general and actually aimed at my cub cadet lawn mower :D


I'm so glad you clarified that, Jim. When I first moved to the Lock Haven area 3 decades back, I was surprised to see dozens of ads in the local paper for Cub Cadets a unbelievably low prices. Now, I had been expecting to see numerous Cubs available hereabouts, and was quite familiar with the various J models, the Cruiser, and the SuperCub, but I had never heard of a model called the Cadet. If only someone had included the words "lawn mower," that would have saved me a lot of confusion.


I have a friend who would be quick to point out that a Cub Cadet is not a lawn mower, it is a lawn tractor. At least that's the way it used to be before they started selling junk based on name recognition.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-02-21T13:35:09-05:00 2018-02-21T13:35:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49799#p49799
WDD wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:. The version they sell abroad is no different structurally than the version sold here. However the certification is. What it says is what you get...1320 is 1320. Want or need more, go experimental or move across the pond....


Or..... add floats! You can take the same plane and go up a hundred pounds or so by virtue of it being able to operate on water.


Most floats weigh over 110lb for a pair, so usually you lose carrying capacity.]]>
WDD wrote:
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:. The version they sell abroad is no different structurally than the version sold here. However the certification is. What it says is what you get...1320 is 1320. Want or need more, go experimental or move across the pond....


Or..... add floats! You can take the same plane and go up a hundred pounds or so by virtue of it being able to operate on water.


Most floats weigh over 110lb for a pair, so usually you lose carrying capacity.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T13:54:25-05:00 2018-02-21T13:54:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49803#p49803 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-21T17:10:38-05:00 2018-02-21T17:10:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49807#p49807
3Dreaming wrote:I have a friend who would be quick to point out that a Cub Cadet is not a lawn mower, it is a lawn tractor. At least that's the way it used to be before they started selling junk based on name recognition.


Let's see..... Lawn Tractor = Ride able lawn cutting machine that has the engine front of rider]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I have a friend who would be quick to point out that a Cub Cadet is not a lawn mower, it is a lawn tractor. At least that's the way it used to be before they started selling junk based on name recognition.


Let's see..... Lawn Tractor = Ride able lawn cutting machine that has the engine front of rider]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-21T23:00:15-05:00 2018-02-21T23:00:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49811#p49811
WDD wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I have a friend who would be quick to point out that a Cub Cadet is not a lawn mower, it is a lawn tractor. At least that's the way it used to be before they started selling junk based on name recognition.


Let's see..... Lawn Tractor = Ride able lawn cutting machine that has the engine front of rider


It will also have a PTO and hitch attachments for accosories other than a mower deck. Such as a tiller for the garden or a blade for clearing snow from the driveway.]]>
WDD wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I have a friend who would be quick to point out that a Cub Cadet is not a lawn mower, it is a lawn tractor. At least that's the way it used to be before they started selling junk based on name recognition.


Let's see..... Lawn Tractor = Ride able lawn cutting machine that has the engine front of rider


It will also have a PTO and hitch attachments for accosories other than a mower deck. Such as a tiller for the garden or a blade for clearing snow from the driveway.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-22T11:26:57-05:00 2018-02-22T11:26:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49812#p49812

It is actually called a Rider and suits my ego quite well. Haven't had that much fun since I was sitting on an M-60 MBT.

Scan032a.jpg

Attachments



Scan032a.jpg (97.47 KiB)


]]>


It is actually called a Rider and suits my ego quite well. Haven't had that much fun since I was sitting on an M-60 MBT.

Scan032a.jpg

Attachments



Scan032a.jpg (97.47 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: How to find the real gross weight a plane can carry? :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-22T17:30:05-05:00 2018-02-22T17:30:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5013&p=49817#p49817 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pending new revised Sky Arrow POH, revised Operating Limitations and SB :: Reply by Cub flyer]]> 2018-02-14T17:12:40-05:00 2018-02-14T17:12:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4938&p=49639#p49639 has this problem and it’s a safety of flight issue or did they issue a Service Bulletin about the issue?

If it’s a known flutter problem that was resolved by stiffening the stabilator after they went to full span servo tabs and
the problem has caused some accidents I think the owners should be notified. Quickly

Did they charge for the “upgrade” modification?

The self notification by the manufacturers is how it’s supposed to work with known problems since there are no Airworthiness Directives
on SLSA.]]>
has this problem and it’s a safety of flight issue or did they issue a Service Bulletin about the issue?

If it’s a known flutter problem that was resolved by stiffening the stabilator after they went to full span servo tabs and
the problem has caused some accidents I think the owners should be notified. Quickly

Did they charge for the “upgrade” modification?

The self notification by the manufacturers is how it’s supposed to work with known problems since there are no Airworthiness Directives
on SLSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Pending new revised Sky Arrow POH, revised Operating Limitations and SB :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-23T08:25:46-05:00 2018-02-23T08:25:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4938&p=49818#p49818
Image

Kinda hard to read, but in the plane it’s white letters on a red background.

As a surprise, what I got in the mail from Italy was a full set of cabin placards:

Image

Nice. Most of mine are in pretty good shape, but a couple are showing their age. Nice having spares regardless.

Now I just need to placard or mark the airspeed indicator with the new redline and make the appropriate logbook entry per the SB.]]>

Image

Kinda hard to read, but in the plane it’s white letters on a red background.

As a surprise, what I got in the mail from Italy was a full set of cabin placards:

Image

Nice. Most of mine are in pretty good shape, but a couple are showing their age. Nice having spares regardless.

Now I just need to placard or mark the airspeed indicator with the new redline and make the appropriate logbook entry per the SB.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: X Plane 11 + Oculus Rift :: Reply by Hambone]]> 2018-01-25T15:09:43-05:00 2018-01-25T15:09:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4976&p=49301#p49301
hook_dupin wrote:An Oculus Rift showed up under the tree this year, then X-Plane 11 announced their VR port... its good.

It's so good that I'm now working on 3D aircraft specific to my little flight school.

If anyone has a small aircraft they want modelled, ping me. I've been rapidly trying to learn how to build aircraft in the plane builder and then fly them.

I'm currently spinning up as a CFI-S in my CTSW. I just bought X Plane 11, and am using the included 172. It's close enough to the CTSW in performance, but I'd love to have a CTSW model, especially if it included functioning Dynons.

I had planned on expanding to a 3-monitor setup, but the Oculus could be a better idea, although I'd need two for instructor/student.]]>
hook_dupin wrote:An Oculus Rift showed up under the tree this year, then X-Plane 11 announced their VR port... its good.

It's so good that I'm now working on 3D aircraft specific to my little flight school.

If anyone has a small aircraft they want modelled, ping me. I've been rapidly trying to learn how to build aircraft in the plane builder and then fly them.

I'm currently spinning up as a CFI-S in my CTSW. I just bought X Plane 11, and am using the included 172. It's close enough to the CTSW in performance, but I'd love to have a CTSW model, especially if it included functioning Dynons.

I had planned on expanding to a 3-monitor setup, but the Oculus could be a better idea, although I'd need two for instructor/student.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: X Plane 11 + Oculus Rift :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-25T17:00:07-05:00 2018-01-25T17:00:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4976&p=49304#p49304
X-Plane has 3rd party CTLS model but it is kind of old and has 2d cockpit which just doesn't work with Oculus.]]>

X-Plane has 3rd party CTLS model but it is kind of old and has 2d cockpit which just doesn't work with Oculus.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Tower Endorsement :: Author Half Fast]]> 2018-01-28T18:33:11-05:00 2018-01-28T18:33:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49362#p49362
Winds weren’t too bad when we took off from X04 but were picking up in Leesburg by the time we got there. On the way back we had a 30 knot headwind at 2000 feet, and then we got knocked around pretty good in the pattern. I managed to plop it down, though. Rain and thunderstorms moving in this afternoon, so it’s good we got up this morning.

Radio work was all good though, and I did fine with all instructions.

Glad to have the endorsement. It opens up many more destinations.]]>

Winds weren’t too bad when we took off from X04 but were picking up in Leesburg by the time we got there. On the way back we had a 30 knot headwind at 2000 feet, and then we got knocked around pretty good in the pattern. I managed to plop it down, though. Rain and thunderstorms moving in this afternoon, so it’s good we got up this morning.

Radio work was all good though, and I did fine with all instructions.

Glad to have the endorsement. It opens up many more destinations.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-01-29T06:20:36-05:00 2018-01-29T06:20:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49364#p49364
You are moving upward and all pilots should do that rather than stagnate and become satisfied.]]>

You are moving upward and all pilots should do that rather than stagnate and become satisfied.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-29T07:21:28-05:00 2018-01-29T07:21:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49366#p49366
Next time you’re up my way we can try to plan a trip to Knoxville’s Class C, either as an intro to Class C or maybe working an endorsement in there if you still need it.]]>

Next time you’re up my way we can try to plan a trip to Knoxville’s Class C, either as an intro to Class C or maybe working an endorsement in there if you still need it.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-01-29T10:47:17-05:00 2018-01-29T10:47:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49369#p49369
FastEddieB wrote:Yay!

Next time you’re up my way we can try to plan a trip to Knoxville’s Class C, either as an intro to Class C or maybe working an endorsement in there if you still need it.



That would be outstanding. My CFI recommended I fly with an instructor my first time into a Class C, even if it isn't required by the endorsement, and I told him I certainly would. He offered to go over to Sanford with me whenever I want, but Knoxville would be great.

Hope I can get up there sometime soon. Now that my son is out of the house, travel has actually become more difficult since we no longer have anyone to care for the horses. Some days I wish I'd married a woman who liked goldfish...]]>
FastEddieB wrote:Yay!

Next time you’re up my way we can try to plan a trip to Knoxville’s Class C, either as an intro to Class C or maybe working an endorsement in there if you still need it.



That would be outstanding. My CFI recommended I fly with an instructor my first time into a Class C, even if it isn't required by the endorsement, and I told him I certainly would. He offered to go over to Sanford with me whenever I want, but Knoxville would be great.

Hope I can get up there sometime soon. Now that my son is out of the house, travel has actually become more difficult since we no longer have anyone to care for the horses. Some days I wish I'd married a woman who liked goldfish...]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-29T14:18:06-05:00 2018-01-29T14:18:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49376#p49376 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-01T12:50:03-05:00 2018-02-01T12:50:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49423#p49423
Before you have your Sport Pilot license, you can get all the training in the world for B, C, D airspace. But it won't be permanent. You can get an endorsement for a specific B, C, D airport, but not for ANY B, C, D airport.

You have to get your permanent endorsement for any B, C, D airspace AFTER you get your license.

So... if I get a lot of B, C, D training from a CFI before I get the license, I would then have to go back to the CFI AFTER I get my license and have her put the endorsement in the log book?

Or would I have to re - do all the B, C, D training?]]>

Before you have your Sport Pilot license, you can get all the training in the world for B, C, D airspace. But it won't be permanent. You can get an endorsement for a specific B, C, D airport, but not for ANY B, C, D airport.

You have to get your permanent endorsement for any B, C, D airspace AFTER you get your license.

So... if I get a lot of B, C, D training from a CFI before I get the license, I would then have to go back to the CFI AFTER I get my license and have her put the endorsement in the log book?

Or would I have to re - do all the B, C, D training?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-01T13:05:00-05:00 2018-02-01T13:05:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49426#p49426
WDD wrote:Just double checking for the future -

Before you have your Sport Pilot license, you can get all the training in the world for B, C, D airspace. But it won't be permanent. You can get an endorsement for a specific B, C, D airport, but not for ANY B, C, D airport.

You have to get your permanent endorsement for any B, C, D airspace AFTER you get your license.

So... if I get a lot of B, C, D training from a CFI before I get the license, I would then have to go back to the CFI AFTER I get my license and have her put the endorsement in the log book?

Or would I have to re - do all the B, C, D training?



Well, common sense doesn't always (or even often) apply to the regs, but FAR 61.325 says

"The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:...."

I don't know why an instructor who trained you at a controlled airport couldn't endorse that you are proficient assuming you had satisfied all the requirements (like 3 full-stop landings at a controlled airport) while a student.

But I'd like to hear Paul's opinion.]]>
WDD wrote:Just double checking for the future -

Before you have your Sport Pilot license, you can get all the training in the world for B, C, D airspace. But it won't be permanent. You can get an endorsement for a specific B, C, D airport, but not for ANY B, C, D airport.

You have to get your permanent endorsement for any B, C, D airspace AFTER you get your license.

So... if I get a lot of B, C, D training from a CFI before I get the license, I would then have to go back to the CFI AFTER I get my license and have her put the endorsement in the log book?

Or would I have to re - do all the B, C, D training?



Well, common sense doesn't always (or even often) apply to the regs, but FAR 61.325 says

"The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:...."

I don't know why an instructor who trained you at a controlled airport couldn't endorse that you are proficient assuming you had satisfied all the requirements (like 3 full-stop landings at a controlled airport) while a student.

But I'd like to hear Paul's opinion.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T22:00:52-05:00 2018-02-01T22:00:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49469#p49469
Half Fast wrote:
But I'd like to hear Paul's opinion.


Since the blanket airspace endorsement is considered a Sport Pilot endorsement, I don't see that it would be appropriate to give it to a Student Pilot. Once you're licensed, if you've already received the required training, there's no reason your CFI can't immediately give you the endorsement. (Your CFI could even sign you off the day you pass your checkride.)]]>
Half Fast wrote:
But I'd like to hear Paul's opinion.


Since the blanket airspace endorsement is considered a Sport Pilot endorsement, I don't see that it would be appropriate to give it to a Student Pilot. Once you're licensed, if you've already received the required training, there's no reason your CFI can't immediately give you the endorsement. (Your CFI could even sign you off the day you pass your checkride.)]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T23:31:51-05:00 2018-02-01T23:31:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49473#p49473
drseti wrote:
Half Fast wrote:
But I'd like to hear Paul's opinion.


Since the blanket airspace endorsement is considered a Sport Pilot endorsement, I don't see that it would be appropriate to give it to a Student Pilot. Once you're licensed, if you've already received the required training, there's no reason your CFI can't immediately give you the endorsement. (Your CFI could even sign you off the day you pass your checkride.)


Paul, I see no valid reason to not give the endorsement while someone is still a student pilot if the required training has been done. Giving the endorsement will not give the student pilot any additional privileges. In fact the endorsement wouldn't become valid until they are a sport pilot.]]>
drseti wrote:
Half Fast wrote:
But I'd like to hear Paul's opinion.


Since the blanket airspace endorsement is considered a Sport Pilot endorsement, I don't see that it would be appropriate to give it to a Student Pilot. Once you're licensed, if you've already received the required training, there's no reason your CFI can't immediately give you the endorsement. (Your CFI could even sign you off the day you pass your checkride.)


Paul, I see no valid reason to not give the endorsement while someone is still a student pilot if the required training has been done. Giving the endorsement will not give the student pilot any additional privileges. In fact the endorsement wouldn't become valid until they are a sport pilot.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T23:55:12-05:00 2018-02-01T23:55:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49474#p49474 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-02T10:16:23-05:00 2018-02-02T10:16:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49477#p49477
drseti wrote:Tom, are you a member of NAFI? One of their membership benefits is a booklet of endorsements - helps me get the language right, and lets me know when to give which one, and its regulatory basis. The booklet is divided into sections: Student Pilot endorsements, Cross-Country endorsements, Sport Pilot endorsements, Rec Pilot endorsrments, etc. The Airspace endorsement is in the Sport Pilot section, but not the Student pilot one. That is why I don't give it until after a successful Practical Test - it appears not to be an authorized Student Pilot endorsement.


I am not a NAFI member, but maybe I should be. Just because an endorsement is in the sport pilot section doesn't mean it can't be given when they are still a student pilot. In fact the airspeed endorsement required by 61.327 is a sport pilot endorsement, but it is required by regulation to be given to a student pilot prior to making solo flights in a light sport airplane, if they are seeking sport pilot privileges. What I find odd is that a private pilot student in the same airplane doesn't need the endorsement. Since the endorsement doesn't give any privileges to a student pilot I see no liability risk in making it before the checkride, if the training has been done and they are proficient.

When would you make the endorsement if you were sending the applicant to a class D or C airport for their practical test? Of course they would need the endorsement of 61.94 to go to the checkride, but once they pass the ride it is not valid anymore since it is a student pilot endorsement.]]>
drseti wrote:Tom, are you a member of NAFI? One of their membership benefits is a booklet of endorsements - helps me get the language right, and lets me know when to give which one, and its regulatory basis. The booklet is divided into sections: Student Pilot endorsements, Cross-Country endorsements, Sport Pilot endorsements, Rec Pilot endorsrments, etc. The Airspace endorsement is in the Sport Pilot section, but not the Student pilot one. That is why I don't give it until after a successful Practical Test - it appears not to be an authorized Student Pilot endorsement.


I am not a NAFI member, but maybe I should be. Just because an endorsement is in the sport pilot section doesn't mean it can't be given when they are still a student pilot. In fact the airspeed endorsement required by 61.327 is a sport pilot endorsement, but it is required by regulation to be given to a student pilot prior to making solo flights in a light sport airplane, if they are seeking sport pilot privileges. What I find odd is that a private pilot student in the same airplane doesn't need the endorsement. Since the endorsement doesn't give any privileges to a student pilot I see no liability risk in making it before the checkride, if the training has been done and they are proficient.

When would you make the endorsement if you were sending the applicant to a class D or C airport for their practical test? Of course they would need the endorsement of 61.94 to go to the checkride, but once they pass the ride it is not valid anymore since it is a student pilot endorsement.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T11:00:28-05:00 2018-02-02T11:00:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49478#p49478
3Dreaming wrote:When would you make the endorsement if you were sending the applicant to a class D or C airport for their practical test? Of course they would need the endorsement of 61.94 to go to the checkride, but once they pass the ride it is not valid anymore since it is a student pilot endorsement.


You assume the student is planning to fly back home after passing the checkride. ;)

OK, point well taken.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:When would you make the endorsement if you were sending the applicant to a class D or C airport for their practical test? Of course they would need the endorsement of 61.94 to go to the checkride, but once they pass the ride it is not valid anymore since it is a student pilot endorsement.


You assume the student is planning to fly back home after passing the checkride. ;)

OK, point well taken.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-02T11:27:40-05:00 2018-02-02T11:27:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49479#p49479
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: You assume the student is planning to fly back home after passing the checkride. ;)

OK, point well taken.


I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote: You assume the student is planning to fly back home after passing the checkride. ;)

OK, point well taken.


I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-02-02T12:28:04-05:00 2018-02-02T12:28:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49480#p49480 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T12:38:53-05:00 2018-02-02T12:38:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49481#p49481
3Dreaming wrote:I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.


This speaks volumes, Tom, about the quality of instruction you provide. I'm afraid I can't say the same thing (but then, I believe I have been instructing longer than you - it's just a matter of time.)]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.


This speaks volumes, Tom, about the quality of instruction you provide. I'm afraid I can't say the same thing (but then, I believe I have been instructing longer than you - it's just a matter of time.)]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-02T13:30:14-05:00 2018-02-02T13:30:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49482#p49482
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.


This speaks volumes, Tom, about the quality of instruction you provide. I'm afraid I can't say the same thing (but then, I believe I have been instructing longer than you - it's just a matter of time.)


I received my private pilot certificate in September 1980, my commercial in April 1988, and my instrument and flight instructor in February 1990.
However I will turn 55 this year, so you have an edge there as well. :wink:]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.


This speaks volumes, Tom, about the quality of instruction you provide. I'm afraid I can't say the same thing (but then, I believe I have been instructing longer than you - it's just a matter of time.)


I received my private pilot certificate in September 1980, my commercial in April 1988, and my instrument and flight instructor in February 1990.
However I will turn 55 this year, so you have an edge there as well. :wink:]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-02T14:37:44-05:00 2018-02-02T14:37:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49484#p49484
3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.


This speaks volumes, Tom, about the quality of instruction you provide. I'm afraid I can't say the same thing (but then, I believe I have been instructing longer than you - it's just a matter of time.)


I received my private pilot certificate in September 1980, my commercial in April 1988, and my instrument and flight instructor in February 1990.
However I will turn 55 this year, so you have an edge there as well. :wink:



Well, I see two possibilities:

1) You are an outstanding instructor, do a thorough job, and probably conduct a very realistic mock checkride before signing off a student.

OR

2) You are gifted at finding DPEs who are inattentive and lackadaisical in their exams, and will certify anyone for a fee who doesn't kill them in a flaming pile of crumpled aluminum.

Either way, GREAT JOB! :mrgreen:

(Though I guess the real measure of success would be to determine the percentage of students for both you and Paul who are still alive and still flying.)

:wink:]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:I almost hate to say this for fear of jinxing my next applicant, but I have never had an applicant fail a checkride.


This speaks volumes, Tom, about the quality of instruction you provide. I'm afraid I can't say the same thing (but then, I believe I have been instructing longer than you - it's just a matter of time.)


I received my private pilot certificate in September 1980, my commercial in April 1988, and my instrument and flight instructor in February 1990.
However I will turn 55 this year, so you have an edge there as well. :wink:



Well, I see two possibilities:

1) You are an outstanding instructor, do a thorough job, and probably conduct a very realistic mock checkride before signing off a student.

OR

2) You are gifted at finding DPEs who are inattentive and lackadaisical in their exams, and will certify anyone for a fee who doesn't kill them in a flaming pile of crumpled aluminum.

Either way, GREAT JOB! :mrgreen:

(Though I guess the real measure of success would be to determine the percentage of students for both you and Paul who are still alive and still flying.)

:wink:]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-02T15:21:35-05:00 2018-02-02T15:21:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49485#p49485
I assume the same for flying faster than 87 kts? Get the endorsement AFTER the successful check ride to make it permanent and keep the FAA happy.]]>

I assume the same for flying faster than 87 kts? Get the endorsement AFTER the successful check ride to make it permanent and keep the FAA happy.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-02T15:27:20-05:00 2018-02-02T15:27:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49486#p49486
WDD wrote:OK - so I'll need a CFI to endorse AFTER I get the license for B, C, D after I get the license to keep the FAA happy.

I assume the same for flying faster than 87 kts? Get the endorsement AFTER the successful check ride to make it permanent and keep the FAA happy.


It's a bit mixed up, I'm afraid. The speed endorsement is needed before you can solo.

Remember the FAA mission statement: "We're not happy until you're not happy."]]>
WDD wrote:OK - so I'll need a CFI to endorse AFTER I get the license for B, C, D after I get the license to keep the FAA happy.

I assume the same for flying faster than 87 kts? Get the endorsement AFTER the successful check ride to make it permanent and keep the FAA happy.


It's a bit mixed up, I'm afraid. The speed endorsement is needed before you can solo.

Remember the FAA mission statement: "We're not happy until you're not happy."]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T15:49:21-05:00 2018-02-02T15:49:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49487#p49487 capable of 87 kts or greater, under specified conditions (max. continuous power, sea level, standard atmosphere), regardless of the speed you actually fly.

Alternative FAA slogan: we're not happy until you're confused.]]>
capable of 87 kts or greater, under specified conditions (max. continuous power, sea level, standard atmosphere), regardless of the speed you actually fly.

Alternative FAA slogan: we're not happy until you're confused.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-02T15:51:44-05:00 2018-02-02T15:51:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49488#p49488
drseti wrote:Also, the speed endorsement is not to allow you to fly faster than 87 kts. It is to allow you to fly a plane capable of 87 kts or greater, under specified conditions (max. continuous power, sea level, standard atmosphere), regardless of the speed you actually fly.


LOL! Yeah, you don't need an endorsement for <87 knots to do slow flight in a Tecnam.]]>
drseti wrote:Also, the speed endorsement is not to allow you to fly faster than 87 kts. It is to allow you to fly a plane capable of 87 kts or greater, under specified conditions (max. continuous power, sea level, standard atmosphere), regardless of the speed you actually fly.


LOL! Yeah, you don't need an endorsement for <87 knots to do slow flight in a Tecnam.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T15:54:16-05:00 2018-02-02T15:54:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49489#p49489
Half Fast wrote:Yeah, you don't need an endorsement for <87 knots to do slow flight in a Tecnam.


True, but you do need the <87 kt endorsement to solo a J3 Cub, at any speed.]]>
Half Fast wrote:Yeah, you don't need an endorsement for <87 knots to do slow flight in a Tecnam.


True, but you do need the <87 kt endorsement to solo a J3 Cub, at any speed.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-02T16:47:02-05:00 2018-02-02T16:47:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49497#p49497
WDD wrote:OK - so I'll need a CFI to endorse AFTER I get the license for B, C, D after I get the license to keep the FAA happy.

I assume the same for flying faster than 87 kts? Get the endorsement AFTER the successful check ride to make it permanent and keep the FAA happy.


In my opinion you do not need to wait until after you get your sport pilot for the airspace endorsement. As I pointed out to Paul, if you were to fly to a class D or C airport to take your checkride the 61.325 endorsement would need to be made before you receive your pilot certificate. Otherwise you could not legally fly home after passing the checkride. You would also need the airspace endorsement required by 61.94 for a sport pilot student to fly in the class D or C airspace before you arrive to do your checkride. It would need to be done in the specific airspace at the airport where you would be planning to do the ride.

The airspeed endorsement for a sport pilot student is required by 61.89, but the requirement endorsement is that required by 61.327. Because of this the endorsement for a student pilot is still valid once they become a sport pilot. Like I said before I am amazed that a private pilot student flying the same airplane doesn't need a airspeed endorsement. I guess because you are going for a private pilot you are that much more skilled that you don't need the endorsement. :roll:]]>
WDD wrote:OK - so I'll need a CFI to endorse AFTER I get the license for B, C, D after I get the license to keep the FAA happy.

I assume the same for flying faster than 87 kts? Get the endorsement AFTER the successful check ride to make it permanent and keep the FAA happy.


In my opinion you do not need to wait until after you get your sport pilot for the airspace endorsement. As I pointed out to Paul, if you were to fly to a class D or C airport to take your checkride the 61.325 endorsement would need to be made before you receive your pilot certificate. Otherwise you could not legally fly home after passing the checkride. You would also need the airspace endorsement required by 61.94 for a sport pilot student to fly in the class D or C airspace before you arrive to do your checkride. It would need to be done in the specific airspace at the airport where you would be planning to do the ride.

The airspeed endorsement for a sport pilot student is required by 61.89, but the requirement endorsement is that required by 61.327. Because of this the endorsement for a student pilot is still valid once they become a sport pilot. Like I said before I am amazed that a private pilot student flying the same airplane doesn't need a airspeed endorsement. I guess because you are going for a private pilot you are that much more skilled that you don't need the endorsement. :roll:]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Merlinspop]]> 2018-02-04T17:36:53-05:00 2018-02-04T17:36:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49518#p49518 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T17:49:31-05:00 2018-02-04T17:49:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49519#p49519
By that same reasoning, I tend to now agree with Tom's position that Sport Pilot candidates should be able to obtain the airspace endorsement either before or after the checkride.]]>

By that same reasoning, I tend to now agree with Tom's position that Sport Pilot candidates should be able to obtain the airspace endorsement either before or after the checkride.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-04T18:18:50-05:00 2018-02-04T18:18:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49520#p49520
drseti wrote:Since you could be PIC as either a solo student or a certificated pilot...


I was always under the impression that the very first hours a student pilot could log as PIC was on his or her checkride.

No?]]>
drseti wrote:Since you could be PIC as either a solo student or a certificated pilot...


I was always under the impression that the very first hours a student pilot could log as PIC was on his or her checkride.

No?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-04T18:23:21-05:00 2018-02-04T18:23:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49521#p49521 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-04T18:40:04-05:00 2018-02-04T18:40:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49523#p49523
Not that solo is PIC.

My understanding was that PIC time involved sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which he or she is rated. The catch is, until the checkride, he or she is not yet “rated” for the aircraft.]]>

Not that solo is PIC.

My understanding was that PIC time involved sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which he or she is rated. The catch is, until the checkride, he or she is not yet “rated” for the aircraft.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-04T18:42:57-05:00 2018-02-04T18:42:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49524#p49524
FastEddieB wrote:
drseti wrote:Since you could be PIC as either a solo student or a certificated pilot...


I was always under the impression that the very first hours a student pilot could log as PIC was on his or her checkride.

No?


I think it changed a few years ago, Eddie. Solo students do log as PIC now. I asked and was told to do the same thing. There's an AOPA article that mentions it here: https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... d-pic-time .

A student pilot may log PIC time only when he/she is the sole occupant of the aircraft (exception for airship category) while training for a pilot certificate and has a current solo flight endorsement.
]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
drseti wrote:Since you could be PIC as either a solo student or a certificated pilot...


I was always under the impression that the very first hours a student pilot could log as PIC was on his or her checkride.

No?


I think it changed a few years ago, Eddie. Solo students do log as PIC now. I asked and was told to do the same thing. There's an AOPA article that mentions it here: https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... d-pic-time .

A student pilot may log PIC time only when he/she is the sole occupant of the aircraft (exception for airship category) while training for a pilot certificate and has a current solo flight endorsement.
]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-04T18:43:28-05:00 2018-02-04T18:43:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49525#p49525
Not that solo is PIC.

My understanding was that PIC time involved sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which he or she is rated. The catch is, until the checkride, he or she is not yet “rated” for the aircraft.

edited to add: I stand corrected. It apparently changed in 1997.

A student pilot can now log PIC. That's new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.”

edited again: I see Half Fast beat me to it. Thanks!]]>

Not that solo is PIC.

My understanding was that PIC time involved sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which he or she is rated. The catch is, until the checkride, he or she is not yet “rated” for the aircraft.

edited to add: I stand corrected. It apparently changed in 1997.

A student pilot can now log PIC. That's new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.”

edited again: I see Half Fast beat me to it. Thanks!]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-06T18:05:20-05:00 2018-02-06T18:05:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49554#p49554
They have no provision for a student pilot to get a student endorsement to fly a plane faster than 87kts. It appears they have two types of B, C, D endorsements - one for a student that is for a specific airport and good for only 90 days, and one for a licensed sport pilot good for any B, C, D and doesn't expire.


From the FAA website:
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf

Student Pilot- Seeking a Sport Pilot Certificate - Endorsements

10. Solo flight to, from, or at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace or on an airport having
an operational control tower: §§ 61.94(a) and 91.131(b)(1) (required each additional 90-day period)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.94 (a) (1). I have
determined that he/she is proficient to conduct solo flight operations at (name of airport) located in Class B,
C, or D airspace or on an airport having an operational control tower. (List any applicable conditions or
limitations.) J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06



Sport Pilot Endorsements for

6. Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From,
Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: §61.325
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined
he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, at an airport located in Class (B, C,
or D) airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

7. Light-Sport Aircraft That Has A VH Greater Than 87 Knots CAS: § 61.327(b)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.327 in a (make and
model aircraft). I have determined him/her proficient to act as PIC of a light-sport aircraft that has a VH
greater than 87 knots CAS.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06]]>

They have no provision for a student pilot to get a student endorsement to fly a plane faster than 87kts. It appears they have two types of B, C, D endorsements - one for a student that is for a specific airport and good for only 90 days, and one for a licensed sport pilot good for any B, C, D and doesn't expire.


From the FAA website:
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... idance.pdf

Student Pilot- Seeking a Sport Pilot Certificate - Endorsements

10. Solo flight to, from, or at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace or on an airport having
an operational control tower: §§ 61.94(a) and 91.131(b)(1) (required each additional 90-day period)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.94 (a) (1). I have
determined that he/she is proficient to conduct solo flight operations at (name of airport) located in Class B,
C, or D airspace or on an airport having an operational control tower. (List any applicable conditions or
limitations.) J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06



Sport Pilot Endorsements for

6. Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From,
Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: §61.325
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined
he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class (B, C, or D) airspace, at an airport located in Class (B, C,
or D) airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

7. Light-Sport Aircraft That Has A VH Greater Than 87 Knots CAS: § 61.327(b)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.327 in a (make and
model aircraft). I have determined him/her proficient to act as PIC of a light-sport aircraft that has a VH
greater than 87 knots CAS.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T18:25:42-05:00 2018-02-06T18:25:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49555#p49555 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-06T18:27:50-05:00 2018-02-06T18:27:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49556#p49556
http://sportpilottraining.sportaviation ... orsements/

Which looks a bit different. If I understand "or endorsements before checkride are applicable after checkride" language for Sport Pilot license owners, he might be saying you can get the permanent BCD airspace BEFORE the checkride????


Summary of “student pilot” solo logbook endorsements
(add any additional limitations as required for solo flights):

_____ Instructor endorses back of Student Pilot Certificate make/model § 61.87(n) (1).

Prior to first local supervised solo flight, place in logbook:

Speed endorsement required per § 61.89 (c) (5)(not required for WSC trikes and PPC under the 87 knots Vh)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.327 in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined him/her proficient to act as PIC of a light-sport aircraft that has a VH (greater or less) than 87 knots CAS. J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

If towered airspace flights is required:
Solo flight in Class B, C, and D airspace, § 61.94(a) :
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.94 (a). I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct solo flights in (name of Class B, C, or D) airspace. (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

Additional Sport Pilot Endorsements after checkride (or endorsements before checkride are applicable after checkride)

Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From, Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: § 61.325 (if applicable):

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class B, C, or D* airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D* airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06]]>

http://sportpilottraining.sportaviation ... orsements/

Which looks a bit different. If I understand "or endorsements before checkride are applicable after checkride" language for Sport Pilot license owners, he might be saying you can get the permanent BCD airspace BEFORE the checkride????


Summary of “student pilot” solo logbook endorsements
(add any additional limitations as required for solo flights):

_____ Instructor endorses back of Student Pilot Certificate make/model § 61.87(n) (1).

Prior to first local supervised solo flight, place in logbook:

Speed endorsement required per § 61.89 (c) (5)(not required for WSC trikes and PPC under the 87 knots Vh)
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.327 in a (make and model aircraft). I have determined him/her proficient to act as PIC of a light-sport aircraft that has a VH (greater or less) than 87 knots CAS. J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

If towered airspace flights is required:
Solo flight in Class B, C, and D airspace, § 61.94(a) :
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.94 (a). I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct solo flights in (name of Class B, C, or D) airspace. (List any applicable conditions or limitations.)
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06

Additional Sport Pilot Endorsements after checkride (or endorsements before checkride are applicable after checkride)

Class B, C, Or D Airspace, At An Airport Located In Class B, C, Or D Airspace, Or To, From, Through, Or On An Airport Having An Operational Control Tower: § 61.325 (if applicable):

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of § 61.325. I have determined he/she is proficient to conduct operations in Class B, C, or D* airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D* airspace, or to, from, through, or on an airport having an operational control tower.
J. J. Jones, 12-25-2004 J. J. Jones 610610CFI 12-06]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-06T18:29:46-05:00 2018-02-06T18:29:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49558#p49558
drseti wrote:Don't forget that there is a companion to the Vh > 87 kts endorsement, allowing a student pilot or sport pilot to solo an aircraft with a Vh < 87 kts. One must have (at least) one or the other. Are we confused yet?



Not a problem. Just fly something that ONLY goes 87 kts. Not anything faster or slower...... :D]]>
drseti wrote:Don't forget that there is a companion to the Vh > 87 kts endorsement, allowing a student pilot or sport pilot to solo an aircraft with a Vh < 87 kts. One must have (at least) one or the other. Are we confused yet?



Not a problem. Just fly something that ONLY goes 87 kts. Not anything faster or slower...... :D]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-06T18:34:43-05:00 2018-02-06T18:34:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49560#p49560
WDD wrote:Things seem complicated.

They have no provision for a student pilot to get a student endorsement to fly a plane faster than 87kts. It appears they have two types of B, C, D endorsements - one for a student that is for a specific airport and good for only 90 days, and one for a licensed sport pilot good for any B, C, D and doesn't expire.


61.89 (c), (5) is the requirement for having the speed endorsement. 61.327 (a) and (b) covers the endorsement. The instructor makes the endorsement for which ever speed of aircraft you are flying.

You are correct on the airspace endorsement. The same training for both, only the student pilot training must be in the specific airspace which they will be flying. Personally I see no reason that an instructor couldn't sign off for both when the instruction is given.]]>
WDD wrote:Things seem complicated.

They have no provision for a student pilot to get a student endorsement to fly a plane faster than 87kts. It appears they have two types of B, C, D endorsements - one for a student that is for a specific airport and good for only 90 days, and one for a licensed sport pilot good for any B, C, D and doesn't expire.


61.89 (c), (5) is the requirement for having the speed endorsement. 61.327 (a) and (b) covers the endorsement. The instructor makes the endorsement for which ever speed of aircraft you are flying.

You are correct on the airspace endorsement. The same training for both, only the student pilot training must be in the specific airspace which they will be flying. Personally I see no reason that an instructor couldn't sign off for both when the instruction is given.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T18:40:34-05:00 2018-02-06T18:40:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49561#p49561 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-06T19:18:35-05:00 2018-02-06T19:18:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49564#p49564
Warmi wrote:Interesting. I got my D class endorsement before my solo since I was training at KARR ( d class) but I never got the 87+ knots one despite flying Remos planes.


So does that mean you don't currently have an endorsement to go faster than 87 kts?]]>
Warmi wrote:Interesting. I got my D class endorsement before my solo since I was training at KARR ( d class) but I never got the 87+ knots one despite flying Remos planes.


So does that mean you don't currently have an endorsement to go faster than 87 kts?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T19:27:15-05:00 2018-02-06T19:27:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49565#p49565 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T19:49:15-05:00 2018-02-06T19:49:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49566#p49566
WDD wrote:So does that mean you don't currently have an endorsement to go faster than 87 kts?


A common misconception. The endorsement has nothing whatever to do with the speed you fly. It refers to the capability of the aircraft you fly.]]>
WDD wrote:So does that mean you don't currently have an endorsement to go faster than 87 kts?


A common misconception. The endorsement has nothing whatever to do with the speed you fly. It refers to the capability of the aircraft you fly.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T19:54:05-05:00 2018-02-06T19:54:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49567#p49567 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T20:11:21-05:00 2018-02-06T20:11:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49570#p49570 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T20:15:18-05:00 2018-02-06T20:15:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49571#p49571 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T20:34:12-05:00 2018-02-06T20:34:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49572#p49572
Warmi wrote: is this related to ultralights ?


That was it's origin. In 2004 -2005, many fat ultralights were converted to ELSA (that window of opportunity has closed), and many Part 103 pilots then got SP ratings. The planes they had been flying were low-speed, high-drag, but soon those newly minted Sport Pilots stepped up to high-speed, low-drag LSAs, which they could legally do with no additional training. But, the flying characteristics of the two differ widely, and upgrading ultralight pilots began getting into trouble. So, FAA added the endorsements to ensure that some upgrade training be provided.]]>
Warmi wrote: is this related to ultralights ?


That was it's origin. In 2004 -2005, many fat ultralights were converted to ELSA (that window of opportunity has closed), and many Part 103 pilots then got SP ratings. The planes they had been flying were low-speed, high-drag, but soon those newly minted Sport Pilots stepped up to high-speed, low-drag LSAs, which they could legally do with no additional training. But, the flying characteristics of the two differ widely, and upgrading ultralight pilots began getting into trouble. So, FAA added the endorsements to ensure that some upgrade training be provided.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-06T22:45:46-05:00 2018-02-06T22:45:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49574#p49574
Warmi wrote:Can’t find one. I see B,C,D or on an airport having an operational tower and few others but not the 87 knots one.


Get that endorsement now. Legally speaking all of your solo flight without the endorsement was in violation of the regulations. There have been people sent home from their checkrides because of not having the endorsement.]]>
Warmi wrote:Can’t find one. I see B,C,D or on an airport having an operational tower and few others but not the 87 knots one.


Get that endorsement now. Legally speaking all of your solo flight without the endorsement was in violation of the regulations. There have been people sent home from their checkrides because of not having the endorsement.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-06T23:42:46-05:00 2018-02-06T23:42:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49578#p49578 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-06T23:55:45-05:00 2018-02-06T23:55:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49579#p49579 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-07T10:28:05-05:00 2018-02-07T10:28:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49585#p49585
Warmi wrote:Will do. I think people just don’t know about it cause nobody ever mentioned it to me except on this site.


It is conveniently buried in the student pilot sub part of the regulations, and easily missed if not read in their entirety.
I should note that it was an other instructor DPE on this site that pointed me in the right direction on this endorsement. We can all learn something new from time to time.]]>
Warmi wrote:Will do. I think people just don’t know about it cause nobody ever mentioned it to me except on this site.


It is conveniently buried in the student pilot sub part of the regulations, and easily missed if not read in their entirety.
I should note that it was an other instructor DPE on this site that pointed me in the right direction on this endorsement. We can all learn something new from time to time.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-07T11:31:41-05:00 2018-02-07T11:31:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49589#p49589
3Dreaming wrote:We can all learn something new from time to time.


True.

I recently learned that student pilots can now log solo time.

In my defense, its only been that way for about 20 years! :wink:]]>
3Dreaming wrote:We can all learn something new from time to time.


True.

I recently learned that student pilots can now log solo time.

In my defense, its only been that way for about 20 years! :wink:]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-07T11:48:58-05:00 2018-02-07T11:48:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49590#p49590
FastEddieB wrote:I recently learned that student pilots can now log solo time.


I think what you mean is that student pilots can log their solo time as PIC.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I recently learned that student pilots can now log solo time.


I think what you mean is that student pilots can log their solo time as PIC.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Tower Endorsement :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-07T14:01:15-05:00 2018-02-07T14:01:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4999&p=49591#p49591
drseti wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:I recently learned that student pilots can now log solo time.


I think what you mean is that student pilots can log their solo time as PIC.


Image

I was just making sure you were paying attention!]]>
drseti wrote:
FastEddieB wrote:I recently learned that student pilots can now log solo time.


I think what you mean is that student pilots can log their solo time as PIC.


Image

I was just making sure you were paying attention!]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Author WDD]]> 2018-02-10T20:20:17-05:00 2018-02-10T20:20:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49607#p49607
Great visibility - but weather a bit rough. Then when doing a sharp 360 turn at a high bank - well I got a bit motion nausea. Didn’t need the bag - but didn’t feel great.

Think I made a mistake. In the turn I looked straight ahead at the nose I think I should have looked into the turn instead. Should I have had my head cocked to be level with the horizon? Or keep it level with the plane ?

Any tips on dealing with motion sickness appreciated!]]>

Great visibility - but weather a bit rough. Then when doing a sharp 360 turn at a high bank - well I got a bit motion nausea. Didn’t need the bag - but didn’t feel great.

Think I made a mistake. In the turn I looked straight ahead at the nose I think I should have looked into the turn instead. Should I have had my head cocked to be level with the horizon? Or keep it level with the plane ?

Any tips on dealing with motion sickness appreciated!]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by CharlieTango]]> 2018-02-10T20:33:13-05:00 2018-02-10T20:33:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49608#p49608
WDD wrote:So - finally got into the air for training! I got 2.5 hours hobbs time in the log book yesterday after a lot of weather cancelations !

Great visibility - but weather a bit rough. Then when doing a sharp 360 turn at a high bank - well I got a bit motion nausea. Didn’t need the bag - but didn’t feel great.

Think I made a mistake. In the turn I looked straight ahead at the nose I think I should have looked into the turn instead. Should I have had my head cocked to be level with the horizon? Or keep it level with the plane ?

Any tips on dealing with motion sickness appreciated!


No need to cock your head. You are striving to do coordinated turns and in a coordinated turn there are no yaw forces to fight, just sit in your seat.

Personally I want to look strait down the wing as well as at the nose as it describes an arc along the horizon as well as eslsewhere.

Feeling thick is prolly cause your doing steep turns on your first flight not where your looking. Pretty normal]]>
WDD wrote:So - finally got into the air for training! I got 2.5 hours hobbs time in the log book yesterday after a lot of weather cancelations !

Great visibility - but weather a bit rough. Then when doing a sharp 360 turn at a high bank - well I got a bit motion nausea. Didn’t need the bag - but didn’t feel great.

Think I made a mistake. In the turn I looked straight ahead at the nose I think I should have looked into the turn instead. Should I have had my head cocked to be level with the horizon? Or keep it level with the plane ?

Any tips on dealing with motion sickness appreciated!


No need to cock your head. You are striving to do coordinated turns and in a coordinated turn there are no yaw forces to fight, just sit in your seat.

Personally I want to look strait down the wing as well as at the nose as it describes an arc along the horizon as well as eslsewhere.

Feeling thick is prolly cause your doing steep turns on your first flight not where your looking. Pretty normal]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-10T20:34:22-05:00 2018-02-10T20:34:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49609#p49609 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-10T21:11:17-05:00 2018-02-10T21:11:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49610#p49610
My profile picture shows me pulling gees in a Globe Swift. Notice the grimace. I'm sucking a peppermint in that photo.]]>

My profile picture shows me pulling gees in a Globe Swift. Notice the grimace. I'm sucking a peppermint in that photo.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-10T21:45:26-05:00 2018-02-10T21:45:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49611#p49611 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-10T21:56:47-05:00 2018-02-10T21:56:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49612#p49612 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-11T08:10:57-05:00 2018-02-11T08:10:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49613#p49613
The biggest obstacle at this point is not to let the fear of it loom over you for your next lesson or two. Arm yourself with Paul's peppermint and the knowledge that this many pilots know it will pass and go about it armed with that :D

Keep your lessons down to an hour of flight until you settle in.]]>

The biggest obstacle at this point is not to let the fear of it loom over you for your next lesson or two. Arm yourself with Paul's peppermint and the knowledge that this many pilots know it will pass and go about it armed with that :D

Keep your lessons down to an hour of flight until you settle in.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Where to look to alleviate motion nausea? :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-02-12T21:31:55-05:00 2018-02-12T21:31:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5006&p=49619#p49619 <![CDATA[Training :: Session question :: Author sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-20T20:09:12-05:00 2018-02-20T20:09:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49768#p49768
Is it customary for there to be a 1 hr of actual flight training followed by 1 1/2 hrs of ground school in one session?]]>

Is it customary for there to be a 1 hr of actual flight training followed by 1 1/2 hrs of ground school in one session?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-20T20:28:40-05:00 2018-02-20T20:28:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49769#p49769 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-20T20:49:26-05:00 2018-02-20T20:49:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49770#p49770 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-20T21:01:58-05:00 2018-02-20T21:01:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49771#p49771
I was like you in that I preferred to learn on my own and thus for the written test, I pretty much did all my studying but I guess ultimately it is up to your instructor and his/her preferred style - you can always switch to another instructor.]]>

I was like you in that I preferred to learn on my own and thus for the written test, I pretty much did all my studying but I guess ultimately it is up to your instructor and his/her preferred style - you can always switch to another instructor.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-20T21:08:10-05:00 2018-02-20T21:08:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49773#p49773
sportflugzeug wrote:I need to discuss the need for 1 1/2 hrs of ground. I do not need to be spoon fed as I am capable of reading and studying for myself.
That was me also. I was in high school and a very good student. So, I was not interested in ground school. However, some CFI's have their own way of doing things and might not be as flexible as some other CFI's. Personally, I would not pay for something I did not want or need. That said, there are some advantages to "being spoon fed" the information and it would be worth it for some students.

Also, I personally think the CFI should tailor the training to fit the student, not force the student into a pre-determined training regiment. Others here will disagree. That's OK. Choice is good.]]>
sportflugzeug wrote:I need to discuss the need for 1 1/2 hrs of ground. I do not need to be spoon fed as I am capable of reading and studying for myself.
That was me also. I was in high school and a very good student. So, I was not interested in ground school. However, some CFI's have their own way of doing things and might not be as flexible as some other CFI's. Personally, I would not pay for something I did not want or need. That said, there are some advantages to "being spoon fed" the information and it would be worth it for some students.

Also, I personally think the CFI should tailor the training to fit the student, not force the student into a pre-determined training regiment. Others here will disagree. That's OK. Choice is good.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-20T22:01:04-05:00 2018-02-20T22:01:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49777#p49777 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-20T22:03:57-05:00 2018-02-20T22:03:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49778#p49778
Half Fast wrote:No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.


Not necessarily.. I think drSeti does something similar at his school ..]]>
Half Fast wrote:No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.


Not necessarily.. I think drSeti does something similar at his school ..]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T03:12:07-05:00 2018-02-21T03:12:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49779#p49779 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-21T06:59:28-05:00 2018-02-21T06:59:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49781#p49781
sportflugzeug wrote:I have completed the written (88%) and have obtained my student pilot certificate. I have quite accomplished studying skills, so I can read the material for myself. I will see how and what the CFI has to say first. Based on that conversation, then I will proceed with my next decision. I will not speculate until I speak with him.


My first impression is that with your attitude you have little idea what is involved in becoming a pilot. But you have left out everything of importance to your question. You never said what the flight and ground lesson was about. You think you aced it, but did your instructor press on because he felt you really didn't understand the lessons? Had a student who got a quiz question right when almost everyone else gets it wrong. It wasn't a lucky guess but a logical approach he used to answer it. But when quizzed farther, his logic was completely wrong.

But I have seen the other side of the coin too! My favorite was a student who asked me if he should preflight and start the plane??? Seemed that was customary at his old school, then sit in the running plane until the instructor arrived!

I work with my customers. If someone tells me they know that subject, I either accept that they do, followed by a few well placed questions or I have them explain it to me. I actually like to get my students through with the minimum time but I have yet to see anyone who I would sign off in 20 hours!]]>
sportflugzeug wrote:I have completed the written (88%) and have obtained my student pilot certificate. I have quite accomplished studying skills, so I can read the material for myself. I will see how and what the CFI has to say first. Based on that conversation, then I will proceed with my next decision. I will not speculate until I speak with him.


My first impression is that with your attitude you have little idea what is involved in becoming a pilot. But you have left out everything of importance to your question. You never said what the flight and ground lesson was about. You think you aced it, but did your instructor press on because he felt you really didn't understand the lessons? Had a student who got a quiz question right when almost everyone else gets it wrong. It wasn't a lucky guess but a logical approach he used to answer it. But when quizzed farther, his logic was completely wrong.

But I have seen the other side of the coin too! My favorite was a student who asked me if he should preflight and start the plane??? Seemed that was customary at his old school, then sit in the running plane until the instructor arrived!

I work with my customers. If someone tells me they know that subject, I either accept that they do, followed by a few well placed questions or I have them explain it to me. I actually like to get my students through with the minimum time but I have yet to see anyone who I would sign off in 20 hours!]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-21T08:19:23-05:00 2018-02-21T08:19:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49783#p49783
Warmi wrote:
Half Fast wrote:No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.


Not necessarily.. I think drSeti does something similar at his school ..



Yes he does, but he uses a non-customary business approach of charging a flat tuition for the program, rather than by the hour.]]>
Warmi wrote:
Half Fast wrote:No, it’s not customary. Sounds like a rip-off unless there’s more to the story.


Not necessarily.. I think drSeti does something similar at his school ..



Yes he does, but he uses a non-customary business approach of charging a flat tuition for the program, rather than by the hour.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T08:42:35-05:00 2018-02-21T08:42:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49784#p49784 and ground instruction prior to solo, solo XC, and checkride. The CFI has to give logbook endorsements to this effect. There is no specific requirement as to hours, but if a DPE sees zero ground instruction logged, he or she is within rights to grill the applicant during the oral, or even reject him or her.

Second, some think the only purpose of ground instruction is to prepare the student for the written. Not so - those flight academies that require the student to pass the written before enrolling still give ground instruction as part of the lesson. That may involve preflight and post flight briefings, supervised simulator sessions, discussion groups with other students, or Q and A with an instructor - but they relate to flying skills, planning, and judgment, not just memorizing answers to multiple choice questions.

Third is the perception that by giving ground instruction, the CFI is somehow milking the student. Of course, there may be some out there for whom this is true, but be careful about generalizing. In my flight school, the plane is rented by the Hobbs hour, but the instructor rents by the course - at a flat rate. It's part of the tuition the student pays up front. No matter how long the lesson lasts. Some lessons (especially toward the end of training, in preparing for the checkride) may go on all day. If the CFI is a fulltime, salaried employee, he or she has no financial incentive to drag out the lesson. And the student has no financial incentive to short-change himself or herself.

In my nearly four decades of college teaching, I can't remember ever charging a student for coming in to talk during office hours. If it were in my power, I would have charged them for not doing so.]]>
and ground instruction prior to solo, solo XC, and checkride. The CFI has to give logbook endorsements to this effect. There is no specific requirement as to hours, but if a DPE sees zero ground instruction logged, he or she is within rights to grill the applicant during the oral, or even reject him or her.

Second, some think the only purpose of ground instruction is to prepare the student for the written. Not so - those flight academies that require the student to pass the written before enrolling still give ground instruction as part of the lesson. That may involve preflight and post flight briefings, supervised simulator sessions, discussion groups with other students, or Q and A with an instructor - but they relate to flying skills, planning, and judgment, not just memorizing answers to multiple choice questions.

Third is the perception that by giving ground instruction, the CFI is somehow milking the student. Of course, there may be some out there for whom this is true, but be careful about generalizing. In my flight school, the plane is rented by the Hobbs hour, but the instructor rents by the course - at a flat rate. It's part of the tuition the student pays up front. No matter how long the lesson lasts. Some lessons (especially toward the end of training, in preparing for the checkride) may go on all day. If the CFI is a fulltime, salaried employee, he or she has no financial incentive to drag out the lesson. And the student has no financial incentive to short-change himself or herself.

In my nearly four decades of college teaching, I can't remember ever charging a student for coming in to talk during office hours. If it were in my power, I would have charged them for not doing so.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T09:22:55-05:00 2018-02-21T09:22:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49785#p49785
Thank you for your thoughtful response. You definitely have explained the theory of ground school. If I understand it correctly, it’s not about if one can self-study and do well. There is much more information that is learned through the CFI than books.]]>

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You definitely have explained the theory of ground school. If I understand it correctly, it’s not about if one can self-study and do well. There is much more information that is learned through the CFI than books.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-21T10:19:02-05:00 2018-02-21T10:19:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49787#p49787
sportflugzeug wrote:drseti,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You definitely have explained the theory of ground school. If I understand it correctly, it’s not about if one can self-study and do well. There is much more information that is learned through the CFI than books.


Please explain what this lesson, flight & ground was about?

We are not going to criticize you and there is a lot of experience here along with a willingness to help out. We can pick apart FARs or go into nauseating detail on calculating % oF MAC :P]]>
sportflugzeug wrote:drseti,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You definitely have explained the theory of ground school. If I understand it correctly, it’s not about if one can self-study and do well. There is much more information that is learned through the CFI than books.


Please explain what this lesson, flight & ground was about?

We are not going to criticize you and there is a lot of experience here along with a willingness to help out. We can pick apart FARs or go into nauseating detail on calculating % oF MAC :P]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T12:48:25-05:00 2018-02-21T12:48:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49790#p49790 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-21T12:55:53-05:00 2018-02-21T12:55:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49792#p49792
It is entirely up to the student and CFI if the student wants ground instruction pointed toward the written test or not. Some do, some don't. If the CFI insist on doing both, the student is free to go somewhere else for his training. One size DOES NOT fit all.]]>

It is entirely up to the student and CFI if the student wants ground instruction pointed toward the written test or not. Some do, some don't. If the CFI insist on doing both, the student is free to go somewhere else for his training. One size DOES NOT fit all.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T13:11:41-05:00 2018-02-21T13:11:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49797#p49797 I’ve taken the written. CFI says he will go over material from FAR, maneuvers, POH books. He also stated he would like to have 2.5 hours of “chair-fly” before we begin first flight training to go over everything I need to study for Oral and Practical (not written).]]> I’ve taken the written. CFI says he will go over material from FAR, maneuvers, POH books. He also stated he would like to have 2.5 hours of “chair-fly” before we begin first flight training to go over everything I need to study for Oral and Practical (not written).]]> <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T13:33:30-05:00 2018-02-21T13:33:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49798#p49798
sportflugzeug wrote:CFI says he will go over material from FAR, maneuvers, POH books.


FARs say you have to review with a CFI all subject areas in which you missed questions on your knowledge test. (Your test report lists subject codes for areas areas in which you were found deficient, regardless of how you scored on your test). You need an Instructor's logbook endorsement that this has been accomplished going into your checkride. Any ground instruction you receive at this point is an ideal opportunity to fulfill that requirement.]]>
sportflugzeug wrote:CFI says he will go over material from FAR, maneuvers, POH books.


FARs say you have to review with a CFI all subject areas in which you missed questions on your knowledge test. (Your test report lists subject codes for areas areas in which you were found deficient, regardless of how you scored on your test). You need an Instructor's logbook endorsement that this has been accomplished going into your checkride. Any ground instruction you receive at this point is an ideal opportunity to fulfill that requirement.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T13:41:06-05:00 2018-02-21T13:41:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49800#p49800 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T13:48:20-05:00 2018-02-21T13:48:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49801#p49801 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T13:53:14-05:00 2018-02-21T13:53:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49802#p49802 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T13:57:08-05:00 2018-02-21T13:57:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49804#p49804
sportflugzeug wrote:And the DPE will also do the same.


Except that the DPE will not give you remidial instruction.]]>
sportflugzeug wrote:And the DPE will also do the same.


Except that the DPE will not give you remidial instruction.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-21T16:07:47-05:00 2018-02-21T16:07:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49806#p49806
14 CFR Part 61.93(a)(3)

A student pilot who seeks solo cross-country flight privileges must have received ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the cross-country maneuvers and procedures listed in this section that are appropriate to the aircraft to be flown.]]>

14 CFR Part 61.93(a)(3)

A student pilot who seeks solo cross-country flight privileges must have received ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the cross-country maneuvers and procedures listed in this section that are appropriate to the aircraft to be flown.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-21T17:31:42-05:00 2018-02-21T17:31:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49808#p49808
But there is a lot that isn't on the written test. How to actually look at the weather, use METAR if the airport has it, use a TAF from a close airport if your base airport doesn't have TAF, how to use the ForeFlight app, where to pull up the sectional chart supplements, how to talk on the radio in B, C, D airspace, how to practice that at home, etc.

A simple thing - when landing in a controlled airport (in my case LOU which is D), I thought you had to fly the entire pattern. Apparently (surprise), no, you don't have to fly each part of the pattern. They might even tell you to fly in straight. You do what the tower tells you. EG "Enter the base for runway 24 right hand". Learning this on the ground skipped me up to actually learning how to fly it while in the air. It is less expensive to learn things like that on the ground than in the air when the Hobbs meter is running.

If your instructor is teaching you things you already know, tell him/her. But chances are you are learning things you didn't pick up from the book / written test.

My only thought would be to do the ground BEFORE getting in the airplane so you can practice what you've just learned. Post flight instruction for me is a much shorter session - feedback on the flight, what I did right, what I need to improve, and what I need to do at home to prepare for the next flight.]]>

But there is a lot that isn't on the written test. How to actually look at the weather, use METAR if the airport has it, use a TAF from a close airport if your base airport doesn't have TAF, how to use the ForeFlight app, where to pull up the sectional chart supplements, how to talk on the radio in B, C, D airspace, how to practice that at home, etc.

A simple thing - when landing in a controlled airport (in my case LOU which is D), I thought you had to fly the entire pattern. Apparently (surprise), no, you don't have to fly each part of the pattern. They might even tell you to fly in straight. You do what the tower tells you. EG "Enter the base for runway 24 right hand". Learning this on the ground skipped me up to actually learning how to fly it while in the air. It is less expensive to learn things like that on the ground than in the air when the Hobbs meter is running.

If your instructor is teaching you things you already know, tell him/her. But chances are you are learning things you didn't pick up from the book / written test.

My only thought would be to do the ground BEFORE getting in the airplane so you can practice what you've just learned. Post flight instruction for me is a much shorter session - feedback on the flight, what I did right, what I need to improve, and what I need to do at home to prepare for the next flight.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-21T17:59:03-05:00 2018-02-21T17:59:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49809#p49809
As an instructor, most flight lessons ended with a 15 or 20 minute post-flight briefing - what went well and what didn’t during the flight. It was also an opportunity to preview what was going to be covered in the next lesson, possibly with a reading assignment.

I remember longer ground school lessons in preparation for cross countries, and right before the checkride.

I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned upthread, but attention and retention can begin to fade after about 1 1/2 hours. I’m not sure a long ground session after the student is already tired from the flight is a great idea.

But lots of paths to “the prize”. Which is not only to pass a practical test, but to produce a competent and safe pilot, primed to continue learning once their ticket is in their hot little hands.]]>

As an instructor, most flight lessons ended with a 15 or 20 minute post-flight briefing - what went well and what didn’t during the flight. It was also an opportunity to preview what was going to be covered in the next lesson, possibly with a reading assignment.

I remember longer ground school lessons in preparation for cross countries, and right before the checkride.

I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned upthread, but attention and retention can begin to fade after about 1 1/2 hours. I’m not sure a long ground session after the student is already tired from the flight is a great idea.

But lots of paths to “the prize”. Which is not only to pass a practical test, but to produce a competent and safe pilot, primed to continue learning once their ticket is in their hot little hands.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Session question :: Reply by sportflugzeug]]> 2018-02-21T21:19:52-05:00 2018-02-21T21:19:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5015&p=49810#p49810 <![CDATA[Training :: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Author Kayelbe]]> 2018-02-23T15:14:30-05:00 2018-02-23T15:14:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49820#p49820
We have both scheduled a Discovery Flight tomorrow at Glendale (AZ) Muni Airport (KGEU).

I've done a little research, watched a few dozen online ground school videos, etc. Took a bit of convincing to get the wife on board with this idea, but I think she's almost as excited as I am now!

I'll report back with a post-flight debrief tomorrow with my thoughts on my first flight--hope I can sleep tonight!]]>

We have both scheduled a Discovery Flight tomorrow at Glendale (AZ) Muni Airport (KGEU).

I've done a little research, watched a few dozen online ground school videos, etc. Took a bit of convincing to get the wife on board with this idea, but I think she's almost as excited as I am now!

I'll report back with a post-flight debrief tomorrow with my thoughts on my first flight--hope I can sleep tonight!]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-23T16:00:42-05:00 2018-02-23T16:00:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49821#p49821 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-23T16:05:27-05:00 2018-02-23T16:05:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49823#p49823 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by Kayelbe]]> 2018-02-23T16:19:15-05:00 2018-02-23T16:19:15-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49824#p49824
Warmi wrote:What sort of plane are you going to go up for the discovery flight ?


SportCruiser]]>
Warmi wrote:What sort of plane are you going to go up for the discovery flight ?


SportCruiser]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-23T17:10:23-05:00 2018-02-23T17:10:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49825#p49825 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-23T17:29:18-05:00 2018-02-23T17:29:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49826#p49826 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-02-23T20:09:00-05:00 2018-02-23T20:09:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49829#p49829 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: First Lesson 2/24/18! :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-23T21:15:42-05:00 2018-02-23T21:15:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5017&p=49830#p49830 <![CDATA[Aviation Humor & Mayhem :: Re: Here's a thought :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-01-25T22:02:40-05:00 2018-01-25T22:02:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4993&p=49310#p49310 <![CDATA[Aviation Humor & Mayhem :: Re: Here's a thought :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-01-26T06:47:00-05:00 2018-01-26T06:47:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4993&p=49315#p49315
I should have mentioned that I copied these another site, other than my mouse skills, I am not involved. I think it was from a link in an AOPA newsletter.]]>

I should have mentioned that I copied these another site, other than my mouse skills, I am not involved. I think it was from a link in an AOPA newsletter.]]>
<![CDATA[Aviation Humor & Mayhem :: Re: Here's a thought :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-01-27T15:16:56-05:00 2018-01-27T15:16:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4993&p=49335#p49335 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Author drseti]]> 2018-01-31T20:04:09-05:00 2018-01-31T20:04:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49386#p49386
As those of us who instruct students toward the Sport Pilot rating are painfully aware, there is a severe shortage of Designated Pilot Examiners willing and able to give checkrides in LSAs. In my FAA district, there are three qualified ASEL DPEs. The senior one weighs over 350 pounds, and would probably overgross my plane solo. Another is somewhat svelte at just over 250 pounds, but chooses not to do Sport Pilot exams. The third I'll get to later - but this is indicative of a systemic problem. When one applies to become a DPE, there is nowhere on the application form where one lists his or her weight (it would be discriminatory to even ask). Thus, in many parts of the country, there is just nobody available to give an SP checkride!

The third airplane DPE in my FAA district weighs in at around 200 pounds, and is willing and able to examine Sport Pilots. But, he has a full-time job as an airline captain, and a very full schedule.

Last year, one of my students had to wait FOUR FULL MONTHS for DPE availability. (That was long enough for his solo endorsement and checkride-qualifying dual instruction to expire TWICE while waiting.) This excellent student got so discouraged that he was on the verge of quitting.

OK, I've stated then problem. For the past eight years, I've been working to find a solution. Stay tuned for the next several installments of this ongoing saga.]]>

As those of us who instruct students toward the Sport Pilot rating are painfully aware, there is a severe shortage of Designated Pilot Examiners willing and able to give checkrides in LSAs. In my FAA district, there are three qualified ASEL DPEs. The senior one weighs over 350 pounds, and would probably overgross my plane solo. Another is somewhat svelte at just over 250 pounds, but chooses not to do Sport Pilot exams. The third I'll get to later - but this is indicative of a systemic problem. When one applies to become a DPE, there is nowhere on the application form where one lists his or her weight (it would be discriminatory to even ask). Thus, in many parts of the country, there is just nobody available to give an SP checkride!

The third airplane DPE in my FAA district weighs in at around 200 pounds, and is willing and able to examine Sport Pilots. But, he has a full-time job as an airline captain, and a very full schedule.

Last year, one of my students had to wait FOUR FULL MONTHS for DPE availability. (That was long enough for his solo endorsement and checkride-qualifying dual instruction to expire TWICE while waiting.) This excellent student got so discouraged that he was on the verge of quitting.

OK, I've stated then problem. For the past eight years, I've been working to find a solution. Stay tuned for the next several installments of this ongoing saga.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-02-01T08:48:26-05:00 2018-02-01T08:48:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49399#p49399 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-01T08:53:42-05:00 2018-02-01T08:53:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49402#p49402 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T10:12:33-05:00 2018-02-01T10:12:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49404#p49404
There are actually three options for Sport Pilot checkrides. A DPE assigned to a FSDO can give them, if willing (but only if he or she chose to include SP in the designations requested when signing up). We have a new DPE in my district who just got authorized for Private Pilot checkrides, but (even though he meets the weight restrictions for most LSAs) he failed to specify SP in his application. So, until he later chooses to add that privilege, he's not an option.

The second option is that FSDO Inspectors are technically authorized to give practical tests. They used to do that routinely, when I started out decades ago. But most FSDOs are now short-handed. You just can't find an available inspector anywhere, so this is, for all practical purposes, a non-option.

But there is another way. The rule that started the LSA industry in 2004 created the Special and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft categories. It established the Sport Pilot certificate. It included FAR Part 61 Subpart K, creating the Sport CFI. It created the LSRM and LSRI mechanic ratings. And (here's the good news) it established a new, SP-specific DPE rating.

The very first DPE-SP was our friend and fellow forum member Paul Hamilton in Reno. A few dozen more exist, scattered around the country. And the good news is, they are not assigned to or managed by a specific FSDO. They report to AFS-610 (the FAA Sport Pilot branch), and can give checkrides anywhere in the country. Of course, they can and do charge for their travel costs, which can easily double the cost of a checkride.

When I first started my flight school 8 years ago, there was no DPE assigned to my FSDO who could fit in my plane. But, there was an AFS-610 examiner (SP only) living in the adjacent district, and my students used him. I think he was charging them $400 for a practical test, plus another $200 for his travel - but the students were at least able to get checkrides. (He is no longer an active DPE, so for my students, that option has since evaporated).

At that same time, recognizing that there's a shortage, I decided to apply to AFS-610 to become a DPE-SP. That part of the saga will be covered downstream, in Chapter 3.]]>

There are actually three options for Sport Pilot checkrides. A DPE assigned to a FSDO can give them, if willing (but only if he or she chose to include SP in the designations requested when signing up). We have a new DPE in my district who just got authorized for Private Pilot checkrides, but (even though he meets the weight restrictions for most LSAs) he failed to specify SP in his application. So, until he later chooses to add that privilege, he's not an option.

The second option is that FSDO Inspectors are technically authorized to give practical tests. They used to do that routinely, when I started out decades ago. But most FSDOs are now short-handed. You just can't find an available inspector anywhere, so this is, for all practical purposes, a non-option.

But there is another way. The rule that started the LSA industry in 2004 created the Special and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft categories. It established the Sport Pilot certificate. It included FAR Part 61 Subpart K, creating the Sport CFI. It created the LSRM and LSRI mechanic ratings. And (here's the good news) it established a new, SP-specific DPE rating.

The very first DPE-SP was our friend and fellow forum member Paul Hamilton in Reno. A few dozen more exist, scattered around the country. And the good news is, they are not assigned to or managed by a specific FSDO. They report to AFS-610 (the FAA Sport Pilot branch), and can give checkrides anywhere in the country. Of course, they can and do charge for their travel costs, which can easily double the cost of a checkride.

When I first started my flight school 8 years ago, there was no DPE assigned to my FSDO who could fit in my plane. But, there was an AFS-610 examiner (SP only) living in the adjacent district, and my students used him. I think he was charging them $400 for a practical test, plus another $200 for his travel - but the students were at least able to get checkrides. (He is no longer an active DPE, so for my students, that option has since evaporated).

At that same time, recognizing that there's a shortage, I decided to apply to AFS-610 to become a DPE-SP. That part of the saga will be covered downstream, in Chapter 3.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-01T10:41:05-05:00 2018-02-01T10:41:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49407#p49407
Personally, I really really like that answer. Could you please use your considerable influence with the FAA, and your superpower of persuasion, to make that happen? :D]]>

Personally, I really really like that answer. Could you please use your considerable influence with the FAA, and your superpower of persuasion, to make that happen? :D]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-01T10:44:44-05:00 2018-02-01T10:44:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49408#p49408 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T10:57:31-05:00 2018-02-01T10:57:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49410#p49410
Recognizing the DPE shortage, and witnessing the difficulties my students were experiencing in scheduling checkrides, I decided six years ago to apply to AFS-610 for a DPE-SP rating. I really didn't want another career, I just wanted to serve my students. But this presented potential conflict-of-intetest issues, which I had to figure out how to mitigate.

Ideally, a checkride should be given by someone who has had no prior contact with the student, who can look objectively at the applicant with fresh eyes. Obviously, it would be inappropriate for me to recommend a student for a rating, and then administer the practical test. (It would probably also be illegal.) Sure, I could get DPE rated, and then give checkrides all over the country - but how was that going to benefit my students?

In consultation with the aforementioned DPE Paul Hamilton, I came up with a solution. I hired and trained an adjunct flight instructor. I would instruct my students through the completion of the cross-country phase, and then turn them over to him. My adjunct would finish the students up - review their performance, remediate any weaknesses, give them the two hours of required dual in preparation for the checkride, give them all their logbook endorsements, walk them through the IACRA process, sign off as their Recommending Instructor, and then schedule them for a checkride with me.

I would have to discipline myself to disregard any halo effect (positive or negative) resulting from prior contact, and just evaluate the applicant's performance on the oral and practical test.

I could do that.

So, about six years ago, I applied to AFS-610 to become a Sport DPE. And that's when things got weird.

Tune in next time, for another exciting episode of Adventures in Examining!]]>

Recognizing the DPE shortage, and witnessing the difficulties my students were experiencing in scheduling checkrides, I decided six years ago to apply to AFS-610 for a DPE-SP rating. I really didn't want another career, I just wanted to serve my students. But this presented potential conflict-of-intetest issues, which I had to figure out how to mitigate.

Ideally, a checkride should be given by someone who has had no prior contact with the student, who can look objectively at the applicant with fresh eyes. Obviously, it would be inappropriate for me to recommend a student for a rating, and then administer the practical test. (It would probably also be illegal.) Sure, I could get DPE rated, and then give checkrides all over the country - but how was that going to benefit my students?

In consultation with the aforementioned DPE Paul Hamilton, I came up with a solution. I hired and trained an adjunct flight instructor. I would instruct my students through the completion of the cross-country phase, and then turn them over to him. My adjunct would finish the students up - review their performance, remediate any weaknesses, give them the two hours of required dual in preparation for the checkride, give them all their logbook endorsements, walk them through the IACRA process, sign off as their Recommending Instructor, and then schedule them for a checkride with me.

I would have to discipline myself to disregard any halo effect (positive or negative) resulting from prior contact, and just evaluate the applicant's performance on the oral and practical test.

I could do that.

So, about six years ago, I applied to AFS-610 to become a Sport DPE. And that's when things got weird.

Tune in next time, for another exciting episode of Adventures in Examining!]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T11:00:06-05:00 2018-02-01T11:00:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49411#p49411
Half Fast wrote: Could you please use your considerable influence with the FAA, and your superpower of persuasion, to make that happen? :D


If you really think I have considerable influence with the FAA, Half, you haven't been reading my posts!]]>
Half Fast wrote: Could you please use your considerable influence with the FAA, and your superpower of persuasion, to make that happen? :D


If you really think I have considerable influence with the FAA, Half, you haven't been reading my posts!]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T11:03:08-05:00 2018-02-01T11:03:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49412#p49412
Warmi wrote:DPE cartifications should be structured hierarchically . If you want to be a PP DPE, you need to be able to handle PP and all lower ratings and so on. Problem solved.


"Should be" and "is" are two completely different realities, Warmi. Truth is, very few PP examiners (or PP CFIs, for that matter) know all that much about the SP and Rec Pilot rules.

Have you noticed how many of our forum members have reported problems finding a flight school willing to train them for SP? Many CFIs try to up-sell potential students to PP, saying "you don't want to be a Sport Pilot - it's not a real pilot license. And you don't want to be a Rec Pilot - you can't go farther than 50 miles. Just get a PP and be a real pilot." That's the level of misunderstanding I'm talking about.]]>
Warmi wrote:DPE cartifications should be structured hierarchically . If you want to be a PP DPE, you need to be able to handle PP and all lower ratings and so on. Problem solved.


"Should be" and "is" are two completely different realities, Warmi. Truth is, very few PP examiners (or PP CFIs, for that matter) know all that much about the SP and Rec Pilot rules.

Have you noticed how many of our forum members have reported problems finding a flight school willing to train them for SP? Many CFIs try to up-sell potential students to PP, saying "you don't want to be a Sport Pilot - it's not a real pilot license. And you don't want to be a Rec Pilot - you can't go farther than 50 miles. Just get a PP and be a real pilot." That's the level of misunderstanding I'm talking about.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-01T11:40:42-05:00 2018-02-01T11:40:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49416#p49416
drseti wrote:
Warmi wrote:DPE cartifications should be structured hierarchically . If you want to be a PP DPE, you need to be able to handle PP and all lower ratings and so on. Problem solved.


"Should be" and "is" are two completely different realities, Warmi. Truth is, very few PP examiners (or PP CFIs, for that matter) know all that much about the SP and Rec Pilot rules.

Have you noticed how many of our forum members have reported problems finding a flight school willing to train them for SP? Many CFIs try to up-sell potential students to PP, saying "you don't want to be a Sport Pilot - it's not a real pilot license. And you don't want to be a Rec Pilot - you can't go farther than 50 miles. Just get a PP and be a real pilot." That's the level of misunderstanding I'm talking about.


I completely understand where you coming from but my point was that it would be possible for FAA to require anyone who applies for PP DPE certificate to demonstrate their ability to perform examinations for all licenses at or below the license they are applying for - at least with that in place there wouldn't be any technical/procedural reasons for PP DPEs refusing to give Sport Pilot check-rides.]]>
drseti wrote:
Warmi wrote:DPE cartifications should be structured hierarchically . If you want to be a PP DPE, you need to be able to handle PP and all lower ratings and so on. Problem solved.


"Should be" and "is" are two completely different realities, Warmi. Truth is, very few PP examiners (or PP CFIs, for that matter) know all that much about the SP and Rec Pilot rules.

Have you noticed how many of our forum members have reported problems finding a flight school willing to train them for SP? Many CFIs try to up-sell potential students to PP, saying "you don't want to be a Sport Pilot - it's not a real pilot license. And you don't want to be a Rec Pilot - you can't go farther than 50 miles. Just get a PP and be a real pilot." That's the level of misunderstanding I'm talking about.


I completely understand where you coming from but my point was that it would be possible for FAA to require anyone who applies for PP DPE certificate to demonstrate their ability to perform examinations for all licenses at or below the license they are applying for - at least with that in place there wouldn't be any technical/procedural reasons for PP DPEs refusing to give Sport Pilot check-rides.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-01T13:17:54-05:00 2018-02-01T13:17:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49428#p49428
Since I'm assigned by AFS-610, I have no geographical boundaries to worry about, like FSDO assigned DPEs. I don't need "permission" from FSDO to perform practical exams in their area.

FSDOs were not always allowed to designate "sport pilot" examiners. That's a fairly new thing. But yes, it is a special designation. Private pilot DPEs do not automatically have Sport Pilot DPE privileges.]]>

Since I'm assigned by AFS-610, I have no geographical boundaries to worry about, like FSDO assigned DPEs. I don't need "permission" from FSDO to perform practical exams in their area.

FSDOs were not always allowed to designate "sport pilot" examiners. That's a fairly new thing. But yes, it is a special designation. Private pilot DPEs do not automatically have Sport Pilot DPE privileges.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T13:21:22-05:00 2018-02-01T13:21:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49429#p49429 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-01T13:33:10-05:00 2018-02-01T13:33:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49433#p49433
drseti wrote:Gee, Bob, I really should have presented you as an option for my students. How much would you have to charge for travel to and from Lock Haven?


I have no idea how much it would cost, since I'm located in the Los Angeles CA area ;)

I normally charge GAO gov't per diem rates for travel. Obviously, I prefer to do more than one test if being asked to travel, because I'm losing money on the deal (vs my day job) no matter what.]]>
drseti wrote:Gee, Bob, I really should have presented you as an option for my students. How much would you have to charge for travel to and from Lock Haven?


I have no idea how much it would cost, since I'm located in the Los Angeles CA area ;)

I normally charge GAO gov't per diem rates for travel. Obviously, I prefer to do more than one test if being asked to travel, because I'm losing money on the deal (vs my day job) no matter what.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-01T15:37:13-05:00 2018-02-01T15:37:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49442#p49442
comperini wrote:I am also one of those "Class of 2005" DPEs who is assigned directly by AFS-610 (and not my local FSDO). Since this isn't my day job, I've always been happy to travel to the applicant's location, as long as my travel is paid. Applicants are usually more comfortable doing the exam in their own back yard, where they spent all their time training. For the applicant to come to me, they'd have to get the cross country solo endorsement to my place, which costs quite a bit of money (you have to fly the route with your instructor first), or they hire their instructor to come with them. Either way, it's going to cost the applicant money. I'm also happy to fly in an applicant's experimental.


What is the regulatory source for that statement? As I read 61.93, only certain cross countries require that the instructor first fly the route before signing the student off to make the flight. I don't think the flight from Pennsylvania would be one of those certain cross countries.
If I am wrong please let me know.]]>
comperini wrote:I am also one of those "Class of 2005" DPEs who is assigned directly by AFS-610 (and not my local FSDO). Since this isn't my day job, I've always been happy to travel to the applicant's location, as long as my travel is paid. Applicants are usually more comfortable doing the exam in their own back yard, where they spent all their time training. For the applicant to come to me, they'd have to get the cross country solo endorsement to my place, which costs quite a bit of money (you have to fly the route with your instructor first), or they hire their instructor to come with them. Either way, it's going to cost the applicant money. I'm also happy to fly in an applicant's experimental.


What is the regulatory source for that statement? As I read 61.93, only certain cross countries require that the instructor first fly the route before signing the student off to make the flight. I don't think the flight from Pennsylvania would be one of those certain cross countries.
If I am wrong please let me know.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T17:01:55-05:00 2018-02-01T17:01:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49447#p49447
comperini wrote:I have no idea how much it would cost, since I'm located in the Los Angeles CA area


Oh, way too much, I can assure you!

I normally charge GAO gov't per diem rates for travel.


As do I. By the time I've paid a coach round-trip airfare between Central PA and SoCal (which takes 2 or 3 legs, adding up to a full day each way on the airlines), paid for a rental car, a couple of hotel nights, three days of departure airport car parking, meals, and incidentals, I'm into my clients for a couple of kilobucks - and that's before I even start the work they're hiring me for. Works for industry jobs. But, for AFS-610 to say my students have plenty of DPEs to choose from is just a tad unrealistic.]]>
comperini wrote:I have no idea how much it would cost, since I'm located in the Los Angeles CA area


Oh, way too much, I can assure you!

I normally charge GAO gov't per diem rates for travel.


As do I. By the time I've paid a coach round-trip airfare between Central PA and SoCal (which takes 2 or 3 legs, adding up to a full day each way on the airlines), paid for a rental car, a couple of hotel nights, three days of departure airport car parking, meals, and incidentals, I'm into my clients for a couple of kilobucks - and that's before I even start the work they're hiring me for. Works for industry jobs. But, for AFS-610 to say my students have plenty of DPEs to choose from is just a tad unrealistic.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-01T22:29:30-05:00 2018-02-01T22:29:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49470#p49470
comperini wrote:I have no idea how much it would cost, since I'm located in the Los Angeles CA area ;)


Bob! Good to see you on the forum! You were my DPE last year at KFUL! Thanks again for the great experience!

I’m fortunate that Bob was available, but I have read about students in other parts of the country who have to drive hours to find a DPE available for a Sport Pilot checkride.]]>
comperini wrote:I have no idea how much it would cost, since I'm located in the Los Angeles CA area ;)


Bob! Good to see you on the forum! You were my DPE last year at KFUL! Thanks again for the great experience!

I’m fortunate that Bob was available, but I have read about students in other parts of the country who have to drive hours to find a DPE available for a Sport Pilot checkride.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T23:24:31-05:00 2018-02-01T23:24:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49471#p49471
Welcome back, viewers. In the last episode, our hero had hired and trained an adjunct flight instructor to finish training and then endorse his students, so he could administer checkrides
He then applied to AFS-610 to become a Sport Pilot DPE.

Application filed, his qualifications and eligibility were confirmed, and his name was placed in the hopper. It turns out that nothing else happens until a FSDO requests that an SP DPE be appointed for their district. If this doesn't occur within 3 years, the applicant must reapply, and the whole process starts anew.

Well, those three years passed, and the call from FSDO never came. During that interim, my FSDO chose to enlist another DPE, who had applied for the full-blown designation (that is, to give checkrides for all ratings, SP through PP, Commercial, Instrument, and Multi). My FSDO wasn't about to appoint someone who was restricted only to SP (which is all Yours Truly wanted to do).

Well, since my goal was not to secure a new job, just checkrides for my students, I was actually OK with this decision. After all, our new DPE was willing and able to provide SP checkrides, so my services as an examiner weren't really needed.

Or so I thought. For a couple of years, he gave all my students their checkrides. But not without some problems. Since he lived 100 miles away, and my students wanted to do checkrides from their home field, they had to pay extra. Our DPE decided to charge both mileage and an hourly rate for his travel time. (But nobody ever told my students this was going to be cheap...)

BTW, a DPE is an independent contractor, free to set his or her own rates as he or she sees fit. In other words, they are allowed to charge mileage, or travel time, or even both. That doesn't mean my students have to like it.

Then, just over a year ago, the Big Wait started for my students. Two of them were ready for checkrides, and suddenly my only available DPE's day job was interfering with his checkride scheduling. My two students found themselves getting rusty while waiting, spent hundreds of dollars extra on solo flight time to try to stay current, saw their solo endorsements and checkride eligibility expire, and then had to spend hundreds more on additional dual in order to get signed off again. And when our DPE was actually able to give checkrides, somehow it appeared that his Private, Commercial, Instrument, and Multi applicants seemed to take priority.

I decided it was time to take action. So, I met with my local FSDO Manager, and convinced him that we had a need for a Sport Pilot only DPE, and that I was his guy. He agreed to back me, and specifically request me from AFS-610. With that, I was ready to re-apply.

But, it was not to be smooth sailing, as Chapter 5 will reveal. Stay tuned.]]>

Welcome back, viewers. In the last episode, our hero had hired and trained an adjunct flight instructor to finish training and then endorse his students, so he could administer checkrides
He then applied to AFS-610 to become a Sport Pilot DPE.

Application filed, his qualifications and eligibility were confirmed, and his name was placed in the hopper. It turns out that nothing else happens until a FSDO requests that an SP DPE be appointed for their district. If this doesn't occur within 3 years, the applicant must reapply, and the whole process starts anew.

Well, those three years passed, and the call from FSDO never came. During that interim, my FSDO chose to enlist another DPE, who had applied for the full-blown designation (that is, to give checkrides for all ratings, SP through PP, Commercial, Instrument, and Multi). My FSDO wasn't about to appoint someone who was restricted only to SP (which is all Yours Truly wanted to do).

Well, since my goal was not to secure a new job, just checkrides for my students, I was actually OK with this decision. After all, our new DPE was willing and able to provide SP checkrides, so my services as an examiner weren't really needed.

Or so I thought. For a couple of years, he gave all my students their checkrides. But not without some problems. Since he lived 100 miles away, and my students wanted to do checkrides from their home field, they had to pay extra. Our DPE decided to charge both mileage and an hourly rate for his travel time. (But nobody ever told my students this was going to be cheap...)

BTW, a DPE is an independent contractor, free to set his or her own rates as he or she sees fit. In other words, they are allowed to charge mileage, or travel time, or even both. That doesn't mean my students have to like it.

Then, just over a year ago, the Big Wait started for my students. Two of them were ready for checkrides, and suddenly my only available DPE's day job was interfering with his checkride scheduling. My two students found themselves getting rusty while waiting, spent hundreds of dollars extra on solo flight time to try to stay current, saw their solo endorsements and checkride eligibility expire, and then had to spend hundreds more on additional dual in order to get signed off again. And when our DPE was actually able to give checkrides, somehow it appeared that his Private, Commercial, Instrument, and Multi applicants seemed to take priority.

I decided it was time to take action. So, I met with my local FSDO Manager, and convinced him that we had a need for a Sport Pilot only DPE, and that I was his guy. He agreed to back me, and specifically request me from AFS-610. With that, I was ready to re-apply.

But, it was not to be smooth sailing, as Chapter 5 will reveal. Stay tuned.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-02T07:57:56-05:00 2018-02-02T07:57:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49475#p49475
drseti wrote:CHAPTER 4:
But, it was not to be smooth sailing, as Chapter 5 will reveal. Stay tuned.


Sailing? Sailing?!

Now you have to learn how to sail as well as fly to become a DPE? My word. The FAR just becomes more ridiculous all the time. Will you be qualified to examine and certify skippers as well? What's a sailboat checkride like?

This whole aviation thing keeps getting stranger and stranger....]]>
drseti wrote:CHAPTER 4:
But, it was not to be smooth sailing, as Chapter 5 will reveal. Stay tuned.


Sailing? Sailing?!

Now you have to learn how to sail as well as fly to become a DPE? My word. The FAR just becomes more ridiculous all the time. Will you be qualified to examine and certify skippers as well? What's a sailboat checkride like?

This whole aviation thing keeps getting stranger and stranger....]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T10:09:24-05:00 2018-02-02T10:09:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49476#p49476
Half Fast wrote:Sailing? Sailing?!

<snip>
This whole aviation thing keeps getting stranger and stranger....


Pardon the thread drift, folks, but there really was a basis for this metaphor. When I got my seaplane rating, I did indeed need to learn how to sail
(Hint: you use the rudder. )]]>
Half Fast wrote:Sailing? Sailing?!

<snip>
This whole aviation thing keeps getting stranger and stranger....


Pardon the thread drift, folks, but there really was a basis for this metaphor. When I got my seaplane rating, I did indeed need to learn how to sail
(Hint: you use the rudder. )]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T09:22:23-05:00 2018-02-04T09:22:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49510#p49510
Last summer, after my two long-suffering graduates finally got their checkrides, I filed a new application with AFS-650, the FAA branch that handles training of designees. It took them two months, but they eventually reviewed my credentials and green-lighted me to take the training.

There are now two DPE courses required. The first one is taken online, and is a prerequisite for the week-long, live course taught in OKC. So, I immediately paid my $100, then took (and aced) the online course.

Now, I was eligible to sign up for the actual training. I felt like I had won the lottery. (First prize, a week in Oklahoma City. Second prize, two weeks in Oklahoma City!) The next course (which cost $400, not counting transportation, lodging, and meals) was just two weeks away, and airline seats in and out of Podunk PA are a scarce commodity, so I scrambled to make my flight reservations (three legs, taking all day - don't you just love the hub-and-spoke system?)

Airline reservations secured, I went to the AFS-650 website to register for the September class, only to find out it was already full! I operate on a three-strikes rule, and this was clearly:
STRIKE ONE!

Fortunately, I was able to cancel the flights I had reserved less than 24 hours prior, and get a full refund from American.

Next class wasn't being offered until January, and wouldn't open for reservations until the September class was concluded, so I'd have to wait a while to start Chapter 6.]]>

Last summer, after my two long-suffering graduates finally got their checkrides, I filed a new application with AFS-650, the FAA branch that handles training of designees. It took them two months, but they eventually reviewed my credentials and green-lighted me to take the training.

There are now two DPE courses required. The first one is taken online, and is a prerequisite for the week-long, live course taught in OKC. So, I immediately paid my $100, then took (and aced) the online course.

Now, I was eligible to sign up for the actual training. I felt like I had won the lottery. (First prize, a week in Oklahoma City. Second prize, two weeks in Oklahoma City!) The next course (which cost $400, not counting transportation, lodging, and meals) was just two weeks away, and airline seats in and out of Podunk PA are a scarce commodity, so I scrambled to make my flight reservations (three legs, taking all day - don't you just love the hub-and-spoke system?)

Airline reservations secured, I went to the AFS-650 website to register for the September class, only to find out it was already full! I operate on a three-strikes rule, and this was clearly:
STRIKE ONE!

Fortunately, I was able to cancel the flights I had reserved less than 24 hours prior, and get a full refund from American.

Next class wasn't being offered until January, and wouldn't open for reservations until the September class was concluded, so I'd have to wait a while to start Chapter 6.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T09:56:53-05:00 2018-02-04T09:56:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49513#p49513
Remember that September DPE class I talked about in Chapter 5, the one that was already full when I tried to register? It turns out that, the first day of class, there was a no-show, and if I had been there, I could have gotten in! But I am too cautious (and too broke) to risk a $2000 trip, and a week of my time, on such slim odds. So, I waited.

I had requested of AFS-650 that I be notified the moment the January DPE course opened for enrollment, and they obliged me with a timely email. This time, I didn't waste a minute with airline reservations, but went straight to the course registration website, and (as it happens) was first in line. Only by now, the $400 course fee was up to $480 (oh well, it's only money, I'll make it back when I start giving checkrides, right?)

Airline seats for a trip three months away were not a problem, although the January fares were higher than they were last time around (oh well, it's only money ... etc. etc.)

At zero dark thirty on the appointed travel day, I boarded an Embraer commuter jet for the first leg of my journey, a flight from IPT to PHL. As soon as I landed, and turned my cellphone off of airplane mode, I found a message waiting for me: because of the Government Shutdown (thanks a lot, Congress!) the January DPE course was cancelled.

Remember that three-strIkes rule I mentioned in the last Chapter? Well, this was clearly:
STRIKE TWO!

The next flight back to Williamsport wasn't until 9 PM (I told you this was Podunk PA, didn't I?) so now I have a whole day to kill. I spent it cancelling my ongoing flights, booking the night flight back home, convincing the airline to route my baggage back (it had already been loaded for CLT), canceling my hotel reservations, and then arguing with an insurance company. You see, when I made my airline reservations, I had purchased trip insurance. Turns out it didn't cover Acts of Government! (I had thought that was only Acts of God. Wait... same thing.)

Fortunately, American Airlines was more sympathetic than Alianz Insurance. Eventually, I got a full refund.

I got home exhausted, and frustrated, figuring after a good night's sleep, I could embark on Chapter 7.

On Tuesday, Congress re-opened the government.]]>

Remember that September DPE class I talked about in Chapter 5, the one that was already full when I tried to register? It turns out that, the first day of class, there was a no-show, and if I had been there, I could have gotten in! But I am too cautious (and too broke) to risk a $2000 trip, and a week of my time, on such slim odds. So, I waited.

I had requested of AFS-650 that I be notified the moment the January DPE course opened for enrollment, and they obliged me with a timely email. This time, I didn't waste a minute with airline reservations, but went straight to the course registration website, and (as it happens) was first in line. Only by now, the $400 course fee was up to $480 (oh well, it's only money, I'll make it back when I start giving checkrides, right?)

Airline seats for a trip three months away were not a problem, although the January fares were higher than they were last time around (oh well, it's only money ... etc. etc.)

At zero dark thirty on the appointed travel day, I boarded an Embraer commuter jet for the first leg of my journey, a flight from IPT to PHL. As soon as I landed, and turned my cellphone off of airplane mode, I found a message waiting for me: because of the Government Shutdown (thanks a lot, Congress!) the January DPE course was cancelled.

Remember that three-strIkes rule I mentioned in the last Chapter? Well, this was clearly:
STRIKE TWO!

The next flight back to Williamsport wasn't until 9 PM (I told you this was Podunk PA, didn't I?) so now I have a whole day to kill. I spent it cancelling my ongoing flights, booking the night flight back home, convincing the airline to route my baggage back (it had already been loaded for CLT), canceling my hotel reservations, and then arguing with an insurance company. You see, when I made my airline reservations, I had purchased trip insurance. Turns out it didn't cover Acts of Government! (I had thought that was only Acts of God. Wait... same thing.)

Fortunately, American Airlines was more sympathetic than Alianz Insurance. Eventually, I got a full refund.

I got home exhausted, and frustrated, figuring after a good night's sleep, I could embark on Chapter 7.

On Tuesday, Congress re-opened the government.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-02-04T10:43:01-05:00 2018-02-04T10:43:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49516#p49516 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T10:46:18-05:00 2018-02-04T10:46:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49517#p49517 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T18:32:31-05:00 2018-02-04T18:32:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49522#p49522
When I opened my eyes on Tuesday morning, the government had opened theirs. It was time for my third time at bat.

An email from AFS-650 to me, and all the other enrollees in the January DPE class, gave assurances that our $480 tuition payments would either be refunded, or credited toward a future course. So, I checked the online schedule, finding an April offering.

Of course, the dates fell square in the middle of my Spring academic quarter, which was already fully subscribed and prepaid by a great bunch of students (many of whom had been on a waiting list since last fall). You, see, I don't subscribe to the traditional revolving door flight school scheduling paradigm, which I believe contributes to our training industry's pitiful 20% completion rate.

Instead, I run a rigid schedule of fixed lesson dates and times, two lessons per week, three hours per lesson, incorporating (on average) an hour of individualized tutorial (ground instruction), about 1.3 Hobbs of flight, and a three-quarter hour debrief. What else would you expect from a retired college professor who's been teaching for 45 years?

So, I called up all my Spring students, apologized for the inconvenience, and informed them that we would be shutting down for a week in the middle of the term, and tacking an extra week onto the end of the quarter. When I explained why, all were supportive.

Rescheduling accomplished, I went online to register for April. To my horror, the website would not accept my reservation without remitting my $480 tuition - again! I prepared to ring up AFS-650 to complain, but in the interim, received an email from them. They were adding another, unpublished course section in March, specifically for the members of the terminated January course, and our tuition would be automatically credited upon receipt of a returned opt-in email.

Opt in I did, faster than you can say Chuck Yeager. Then, I called up all my Spring students once more, apologized for the inconvenience, and told them we were moving our one-week break back from April into March. Again, thankfully, all students were agreeable. (What a great bunch of students I have!)

I called back to the hotel in OKC. To my surprise, they were expecting my call (FAA had apparently clued them in), and reactivated my cancelled reservation for the new dates, at the same price. All was working out well.

Now, on to the airline, which had good news and bad news. Yes, they had seats for the requested route on the required dates. Unfortunately, the class being the week before Easter, the rates were roughly doubled.

Oh well, I told myself, it's only money...

When I told the tale to my FSDO friend, he said "don't worry about it. You'll make it up in your first few checkrides."

And you wonder why DPEs charge so much?

Unless something unforseen occurs, you can expect Chapter 8 around April first -- no foolin'!]]>

When I opened my eyes on Tuesday morning, the government had opened theirs. It was time for my third time at bat.

An email from AFS-650 to me, and all the other enrollees in the January DPE class, gave assurances that our $480 tuition payments would either be refunded, or credited toward a future course. So, I checked the online schedule, finding an April offering.

Of course, the dates fell square in the middle of my Spring academic quarter, which was already fully subscribed and prepaid by a great bunch of students (many of whom had been on a waiting list since last fall). You, see, I don't subscribe to the traditional revolving door flight school scheduling paradigm, which I believe contributes to our training industry's pitiful 20% completion rate.

Instead, I run a rigid schedule of fixed lesson dates and times, two lessons per week, three hours per lesson, incorporating (on average) an hour of individualized tutorial (ground instruction), about 1.3 Hobbs of flight, and a three-quarter hour debrief. What else would you expect from a retired college professor who's been teaching for 45 years?

So, I called up all my Spring students, apologized for the inconvenience, and informed them that we would be shutting down for a week in the middle of the term, and tacking an extra week onto the end of the quarter. When I explained why, all were supportive.

Rescheduling accomplished, I went online to register for April. To my horror, the website would not accept my reservation without remitting my $480 tuition - again! I prepared to ring up AFS-650 to complain, but in the interim, received an email from them. They were adding another, unpublished course section in March, specifically for the members of the terminated January course, and our tuition would be automatically credited upon receipt of a returned opt-in email.

Opt in I did, faster than you can say Chuck Yeager. Then, I called up all my Spring students once more, apologized for the inconvenience, and told them we were moving our one-week break back from April into March. Again, thankfully, all students were agreeable. (What a great bunch of students I have!)

I called back to the hotel in OKC. To my surprise, they were expecting my call (FAA had apparently clued them in), and reactivated my cancelled reservation for the new dates, at the same price. All was working out well.

Now, on to the airline, which had good news and bad news. Yes, they had seats for the requested route on the required dates. Unfortunately, the class being the week before Easter, the rates were roughly doubled.

Oh well, I told myself, it's only money...

When I told the tale to my FSDO friend, he said "don't worry about it. You'll make it up in your first few checkrides."

And you wonder why DPEs charge so much?

Unless something unforseen occurs, you can expect Chapter 8 around April first -- no foolin'!]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-04T19:38:51-05:00 2018-02-04T19:38:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49526#p49526 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-04T22:51:54-05:00 2018-02-04T22:51:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49527#p49527 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-04T23:00:34-05:00 2018-02-04T23:00:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49528#p49528 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T01:04:39-05:00 2018-02-05T01:04:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49529#p49529
comperini wrote:Have you forgotten the infamous FAA Motto?


You mean the one about how the FARs are written? I think it's "we're not happy until you're confused."]]>
comperini wrote:Have you forgotten the infamous FAA Motto?


You mean the one about how the FARs are written? I think it's "we're not happy until you're confused."]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T01:06:02-05:00 2018-02-05T01:06:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49530#p49530
3Dreaming wrote:And worst of all, you had to miss Sebring.


And you can be damned sure I won't let that happen again!]]>
3Dreaming wrote:And worst of all, you had to miss Sebring.


And you can be damned sure I won't let that happen again!]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-05T11:19:09-05:00 2018-02-05T11:19:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49532#p49532
Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?

I could see a conflict of interest if the student's instructor was also the examiner, but any other flight instructor could do the test.

DPE shortage eliminated.]]>

Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?

I could see a conflict of interest if the student's instructor was also the examiner, but any other flight instructor could do the test.

DPE shortage eliminated.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-05T11:26:03-05:00 2018-02-05T11:26:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49533#p49533
If I plan on being the DPE, I can not be the person to sign off the applicant to see me, as the DPE. That pretty much means I can't do the required "test prep within 60 days"]]>

If I plan on being the DPE, I can not be the person to sign off the applicant to see me, as the DPE. That pretty much means I can't do the required "test prep within 60 days"]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-05T11:49:52-05:00 2018-02-05T11:49:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49534#p49534
comperini wrote:WDD, you have to be selected by the FAA to be an examiner. Being a CFI is one of the prerequisites. Flight instructors can only do proficiency checks (which most probably don't fully understand how they're supposed to be done anyway).

If I plan on being the DPE, I can not be the person to sign off the applicant to see me, as the DPE. That pretty much means I can't do the required "test prep within 60 days"


Understand that that is the way it is now. This is a hypothetical question.

I'm just asking whether or not a CFI doesn't already know enough to do the oral test and the practical check ride?

If someone is proficient enough to teach, should be proficient enough to grade a test.]]>
comperini wrote:WDD, you have to be selected by the FAA to be an examiner. Being a CFI is one of the prerequisites. Flight instructors can only do proficiency checks (which most probably don't fully understand how they're supposed to be done anyway).

If I plan on being the DPE, I can not be the person to sign off the applicant to see me, as the DPE. That pretty much means I can't do the required "test prep within 60 days"


Understand that that is the way it is now. This is a hypothetical question.

I'm just asking whether or not a CFI doesn't already know enough to do the oral test and the practical check ride?

If someone is proficient enough to teach, should be proficient enough to grade a test.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-05T11:54:57-05:00 2018-02-05T11:54:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49535#p49535 Why over complicate things so much - if the above model works for academia , it should work for flight training as well.]]> Why over complicate things so much - if the above model works for academia , it should work for flight training as well.]]> <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T11:55:55-05:00 2018-02-05T11:55:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49536#p49536
WDD wrote:Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?


Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course). Bob C., since you're a DPE, would you care to comment about those additional duties?]]>
WDD wrote:Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?


Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course). Bob C., since you're a DPE, would you care to comment about those additional duties?]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T12:02:04-05:00 2018-02-05T12:02:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49537#p49537
WDD wrote:I'm just asking whether or not a CFI doesn't already know enough to do the oral test and the practical check ride?


Not within my experience. Not to be too hard on practitoners of my chosen trade, but there are quite a few active CFIs out there who don't know the FARs well enough to properly prepare a student for the checkride. I know this because I get calls and emails all the time from CFIs asking me how to do a logbook endorsement, IACRA form, category/class add-on, or checkride prep.]]>
WDD wrote:I'm just asking whether or not a CFI doesn't already know enough to do the oral test and the practical check ride?


Not within my experience. Not to be too hard on practitoners of my chosen trade, but there are quite a few active CFIs out there who don't know the FARs well enough to properly prepare a student for the checkride. I know this because I get calls and emails all the time from CFIs asking me how to do a logbook endorsement, IACRA form, category/class add-on, or checkride prep.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-05T12:26:07-05:00 2018-02-05T12:32:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49538#p49538
drseti wrote:
WDD wrote:Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?


Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course). Bob C., since you're a DPE, would you care to comment about those additional duties?


People, please remember that the "D" in DPE (and DAR for that matter), stands for "designated". You essentially become an uncompensated employee or representative if you will, granted powers by the FAA to issue certificates. That's a big deal! The FAA has every right to demand the highest quality out of someone they trust enough, to do work for them.

No, not all CFI's know how to test. Yes, they are the best candidates to become DPEs, but no, the FAA should not ever just say "CFIs can administer tests". More than once, I've had to fail an applicant, because that applicant's CFI didn't teach the correct stuff. This can happen with "new" CFIs, but often it happens with subpart H CFIs who don't understand that not all "private pilot" privileges apply to sport pilot. More than once, I've had applicants think they can fly in 1 mile visibility, when they can't.

Even after you become a DPE, the FAA keeps a short leash on you. The FAA has fired many DPEs over the years, for doing things wrong. So no, you can't just blindly give people power like that, without control.

After becoming a DPE, you'll still need to take online courses, pass a "check ride" with your POI, to make sure you still know what to do. We also have to notify the FAA before we give each practical, so that the FAA has the opportunity to send out an inspector to observe our orals. Since we're doing the flying part in LSAs, at least the inspector can't be in the plane during the flying portion. The FAA can fire us for any reason, or no reason at all. Common reasons for being terminated, include doing something wrong/illegal, too many paperwork errors in a year (which is why we all prefer IACRA), not doing enough practical exams (if you're not active, they don't want you on their rolls), being too easy, being too hard, etc. We also have to re-apply every two years, to remain as a DPE.

So, NO, CFI's should never just blindly be given those kinds of powers. Yes, the CFI is the best candidate. You're doing a very important job for the FAA, so it's only right that they control who's allowed to do it.]]>
drseti wrote:
WDD wrote:Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?


Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course). Bob C., since you're a DPE, would you care to comment about those additional duties?


People, please remember that the "D" in DPE (and DAR for that matter), stands for "designated". You essentially become an uncompensated employee or representative if you will, granted powers by the FAA to issue certificates. That's a big deal! The FAA has every right to demand the highest quality out of someone they trust enough, to do work for them.

No, not all CFI's know how to test. Yes, they are the best candidates to become DPEs, but no, the FAA should not ever just say "CFIs can administer tests". More than once, I've had to fail an applicant, because that applicant's CFI didn't teach the correct stuff. This can happen with "new" CFIs, but often it happens with subpart H CFIs who don't understand that not all "private pilot" privileges apply to sport pilot. More than once, I've had applicants think they can fly in 1 mile visibility, when they can't.

Even after you become a DPE, the FAA keeps a short leash on you. The FAA has fired many DPEs over the years, for doing things wrong. So no, you can't just blindly give people power like that, without control.

After becoming a DPE, you'll still need to take online courses, pass a "check ride" with your POI, to make sure you still know what to do. We also have to notify the FAA before we give each practical, so that the FAA has the opportunity to send out an inspector to observe our orals. Since we're doing the flying part in LSAs, at least the inspector can't be in the plane during the flying portion. The FAA can fire us for any reason, or no reason at all. Common reasons for being terminated, include doing something wrong/illegal, too many paperwork errors in a year (which is why we all prefer IACRA), not doing enough practical exams (if you're not active, they don't want you on their rolls), being too easy, being too hard, etc. We also have to re-apply every two years, to remain as a DPE.

So, NO, CFI's should never just blindly be given those kinds of powers. Yes, the CFI is the best candidate. You're doing a very important job for the FAA, so it's only right that they control who's allowed to do it.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T12:28:38-05:00 2018-02-05T12:28:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49539#p49539 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-05T12:38:14-05:00 2018-02-05T12:38:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49541#p49541
drseti wrote:Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course).


Up until recently (just a few years), FSDOs were not allowed to designated sport pilot examiners. Only AFS-610 could. Well now, FSDOs can, too. Those people were pencil whipped. They didn't have to go through the seminar specific to sport pilot. In some cases, that has caused problems. Here in my area, I've heard that one of the "FSDO DPEs" actually tested sport pilot applicants using the private pilot PTS. I've also heard rumor of a FSDO DPE doing "group oral exams", which is a BIG no-no. No wonder the FAA wants to keep DPEs on a short leash.]]>
drseti wrote:Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course).


Up until recently (just a few years), FSDOs were not allowed to designated sport pilot examiners. Only AFS-610 could. Well now, FSDOs can, too. Those people were pencil whipped. They didn't have to go through the seminar specific to sport pilot. In some cases, that has caused problems. Here in my area, I've heard that one of the "FSDO DPEs" actually tested sport pilot applicants using the private pilot PTS. I've also heard rumor of a FSDO DPE doing "group oral exams", which is a BIG no-no. No wonder the FAA wants to keep DPEs on a short leash.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-02-05T13:03:31-05:00 2018-02-05T13:03:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49543#p49543 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T13:33:39-05:00 2018-02-05T13:33:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49544#p49544
chicagorandy wrote:Sounds to this old man like flying cars may some day actually be built...... but nobody is gonna be able to fly 'em?


No, my take is that a Sport Pilot license will be required. (More business for me.)]]>
chicagorandy wrote:Sounds to this old man like flying cars may some day actually be built...... but nobody is gonna be able to fly 'em?


No, my take is that a Sport Pilot license will be required. (More business for me.)]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-05T14:14:16-05:00 2018-02-05T14:14:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49545#p49545 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-05T14:48:18-05:00 2018-02-05T14:48:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49546#p49546
3Dreaming wrote:Not all CFI's are created equal. While some could do an objective and fair checkride, I would venture to say they are in the minority. I personally know of CFI's who would have no business doing a checkride. In the past I knew of a current CFI who had not flown for over 10 years. The local DPE has told me that there is an instructor that sends him applicants who has never had one pass on the first try. If he cant even prepare someone for a checkride, how could he perform a test?


Preparing somebody for a check-ride is much harder than doing the actual check-ride - testing is a fairly mechanical tasks with well defined and known variables while teaching takes skills and, frankly, quite a bit of talent.

The bottom line is that the current system is broken if it takes months to even get a check-ride scheduled so something needs to be done.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Not all CFI's are created equal. While some could do an objective and fair checkride, I would venture to say they are in the minority. I personally know of CFI's who would have no business doing a checkride. In the past I knew of a current CFI who had not flown for over 10 years. The local DPE has told me that there is an instructor that sends him applicants who has never had one pass on the first try. If he cant even prepare someone for a checkride, how could he perform a test?


Preparing somebody for a check-ride is much harder than doing the actual check-ride - testing is a fairly mechanical tasks with well defined and known variables while teaching takes skills and, frankly, quite a bit of talent.

The bottom line is that the current system is broken if it takes months to even get a check-ride scheduled so something needs to be done.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T16:17:02-05:00 2018-02-05T16:17:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49547#p49547
drseti wrote:Unless something unforseen occurs, you can expect Chapter 8 around April first -- no foolin'!


Well, in fact something unforseen has occurred - but it probably won't impact present plans. I just got an email from OKC, informing me that they are scheduling an earlier special class for those of us impacted by the government shutdown. I was offered enrollment for the last week in February (which would have been very convenient). However, since I'm already enrolled for the course offered the last week of March, and have my airline and hotel reservations in place, I'm hesitant to upset the apple cart.

So, I expect to have my DPE training completed by April first, as previously reported.]]>
drseti wrote:Unless something unforseen occurs, you can expect Chapter 8 around April first -- no foolin'!


Well, in fact something unforseen has occurred - but it probably won't impact present plans. I just got an email from OKC, informing me that they are scheduling an earlier special class for those of us impacted by the government shutdown. I was offered enrollment for the last week in February (which would have been very convenient). However, since I'm already enrolled for the course offered the last week of March, and have my airline and hotel reservations in place, I'm hesitant to upset the apple cart.

So, I expect to have my DPE training completed by April first, as previously reported.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by WDD]]> 2018-02-05T16:28:06-05:00 2018-02-05T16:28:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49548#p49548 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-02-05T16:53:25-05:00 2018-02-05T16:53:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49549#p49549
drseti wrote: However, since I'm already enrolled for the course offered the last week of March, and have my airline and hotel reservations in place, I'm hesitant to upset the apple cart.



Paul, my experience in dealing with the Government has convinced me that the apple cart almost certainly will be upset one way or another anyhow, so sometimes you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:]]>
drseti wrote: However, since I'm already enrolled for the course offered the last week of March, and have my airline and hotel reservations in place, I'm hesitant to upset the apple cart.



Paul, my experience in dealing with the Government has convinced me that the apple cart almost certainly will be upset one way or another anyhow, so sometimes you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-05T17:02:24-05:00 2018-02-05T17:02:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49550#p49550
Warmi wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Not all CFI's are created equal. While some could do an objective and fair checkride, I would venture to say they are in the minority. I personally know of CFI's who would have no business doing a checkride. In the past I knew of a current CFI who had not flown for over 10 years. The local DPE has told me that there is an instructor that sends him applicants who has never had one pass on the first try. If he cant even prepare someone for a checkride, how could he perform a test?


Preparing somebody for a check-ride is much harder than doing the actual check-ride - testing is a fairly mechanical tasks with well defined and known variables while teaching takes skills and, frankly, quite a bit of talent.

The bottom line is that the current system is broken if it takes months to even get a check-ride scheduled so something needs to be done.


I agree that preparing someone is harder than accessing their ability. My point is, if they can't determine if someone has the skills to pass the checkride, then they don't have the ability so safely access if someone has the skills to be awarded their pilot certificate.

Fortunately I have not had any big issues in scheduling checkrides. I think the longest wait was about 3 weeks. That was because the examiner was on vacation, plus having a busy schedule.]]>
Warmi wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Not all CFI's are created equal. While some could do an objective and fair checkride, I would venture to say they are in the minority. I personally know of CFI's who would have no business doing a checkride. In the past I knew of a current CFI who had not flown for over 10 years. The local DPE has told me that there is an instructor that sends him applicants who has never had one pass on the first try. If he cant even prepare someone for a checkride, how could he perform a test?


Preparing somebody for a check-ride is much harder than doing the actual check-ride - testing is a fairly mechanical tasks with well defined and known variables while teaching takes skills and, frankly, quite a bit of talent.

The bottom line is that the current system is broken if it takes months to even get a check-ride scheduled so something needs to be done.


I agree that preparing someone is harder than accessing their ability. My point is, if they can't determine if someone has the skills to pass the checkride, then they don't have the ability so safely access if someone has the skills to be awarded their pilot certificate.

Fortunately I have not had any big issues in scheduling checkrides. I think the longest wait was about 3 weeks. That was because the examiner was on vacation, plus having a busy schedule.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T17:31:19-05:00 2018-02-05T17:31:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49551#p49551
Half Fast wrote: you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:


Well, since I already altered my Spring term dates - twice - and there's a huge penalty to change my airline tickets, I'm not tipping over any apple carts today.]]>
Half Fast wrote: you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:


Well, since I already altered my Spring term dates - twice - and there's a huge penalty to change my airline tickets, I'm not tipping over any apple carts today.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-05T19:43:12-05:00 2018-02-05T19:43:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49552#p49552
drseti wrote:
Half Fast wrote: you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:


Well, since I already altered my Spring term dates - twice - and there's a huge penalty to change my airline tickets, I'm not tipping over any apple carts today.


Don’t forget in all this that you got the TBO webinar to run in March :D]]>
drseti wrote:
Half Fast wrote: you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:


Well, since I already altered my Spring term dates - twice - and there's a huge penalty to change my airline tickets, I'm not tipping over any apple carts today.


Don’t forget in all this that you got the TBO webinar to run in March :D]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-05T19:52:37-05:00 2018-02-05T19:52:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49553#p49553
Warmi wrote:Don’t forget in all this that you got the TBO webinar to run in March :D


Oh, no problem! That's the second Wednesday night in March. I'll fit it in somehow.]]>
Warmi wrote:Don’t forget in all this that you got the TBO webinar to run in March :D


Oh, no problem! That's the second Wednesday night in March. I'll fit it in somehow.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-02-10T09:25:55-05:00 2018-02-10T09:25:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49602#p49602
Paul, your perseverance is astounding! I hope everything goes well for you this time around.]]>

Paul, your perseverance is astounding! I hope everything goes well for you this time around.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-10T10:49:54-05:00 2018-02-10T10:49:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49603#p49603 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-10T11:05:44-05:00 2018-02-10T11:05:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49604#p49604
3Dreaming wrote:Here in southern Illinois I am happy to say we have a good examiner. He is a full time examiner, which helps with scheduling. He does sport pilot through CFI, single and multi engine. He is a true professional who gives a fair but proper checkride. We are lucky to have him.


Do you know Jim Leon from KIKK ? He is a sport dpe ,heavy maintenance rotax guy etc ... just curious if you know him by any chance ...]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Here in southern Illinois I am happy to say we have a good examiner. He is a full time examiner, which helps with scheduling. He does sport pilot through CFI, single and multi engine. He is a true professional who gives a fair but proper checkride. We are lucky to have him.


Do you know Jim Leon from KIKK ? He is a sport dpe ,heavy maintenance rotax guy etc ... just curious if you know him by any chance ...]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-10T13:00:33-05:00 2018-02-10T13:00:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49605#p49605
foresterpoole wrote:Paul, your perseverance is astounding! I hope everything goes well for you this time around.


Thanks for the kind thoughts, Ed. Fingers crossed!]]>
foresterpoole wrote:Paul, your perseverance is astounding! I hope everything goes well for you this time around.


Thanks for the kind thoughts, Ed. Fingers crossed!]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-10T15:01:54-05:00 2018-02-10T15:01:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5001&p=49606#p49606
Warmi wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Here in southern Illinois I am happy to say we have a good examiner. He is a full time examiner, which helps with scheduling. He does sport pilot through CFI, single and multi engine. He is a true professional who gives a fair but proper checkride. We are lucky to have him.


Do you know Jim Leon from KIKK ? He is a sport dpe ,heavy maintenance rotax guy etc ... just curious if you know him by any chance ...


I think I may have met him when I did my Rotax recurrent training a little over a year ago.]]>
Warmi wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Here in southern Illinois I am happy to say we have a good examiner. He is a full time examiner, which helps with scheduling. He does sport pilot through CFI, single and multi engine. He is a true professional who gives a fair but proper checkride. We are lucky to have him.


Do you know Jim Leon from KIKK ? He is a sport dpe ,heavy maintenance rotax guy etc ... just curious if you know him by any chance ...


I think I may have met him when I did my Rotax recurrent training a little over a year ago.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Another accident at 2L0 :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T08:17:21-05:00 2018-01-25T08:17:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4996&p=49285#p49285 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lr5d3sGxSXQ]]> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lr5d3sGxSXQ]]> <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Another accident at 2L0 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-25T08:32:08-05:00 2018-01-25T08:32:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4996&p=49286#p49286
drseti wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lr5d3sGxSXQ


Great video! I had not seen that before.

Let me dig up another video someone recently posted to POA along similar lines.]]>
drseti wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lr5d3sGxSXQ


Great video! I had not seen that before.

Let me dig up another video someone recently posted to POA along similar lines.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Another accident at 2L0 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-25T08:35:46-05:00 2018-01-25T08:35:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4996&p=49287#p49287
https://youtu.be/mukmCGDvFlQ]]>

https://youtu.be/mukmCGDvFlQ]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Another accident at 2L0 :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-25T09:10:55-05:00 2018-01-25T09:10:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4996&p=49289#p49289 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Another accident at 2L0 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-25T10:11:23-05:00 2018-01-25T10:11:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4996&p=49291#p49291 some right aileron to lift that left wing when it started down.

But as Warren Zevon sang, “You’re a whole different person when you’re scared”, and I’m sure we all freeze up on the controls every once in a while.]]>
some right aileron to lift that left wing when it started down.

But as Warren Zevon sang, “You’re a whole different person when you’re scared”, and I’m sure we all freeze up on the controls every once in a while.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Another accident at 2L0 :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-01-25T10:43:52-05:00 2018-01-25T10:43:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4996&p=49294#p49294 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-25T23:14:17-05:00 2018-01-25T23:14:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49311#p49311
ussyorktown wrote:Yes. If I stop posting it is because you are 100% correct and I was staring at my ninety nine cent app with my head down inches from the screen, with gusts all around and I ended up in a horrible ball of carbon, glue and Rotax parts and old Mad Magazines and Playboy Magazines.

How prophetic.]]>
ussyorktown wrote:Yes. If I stop posting it is because you are 100% correct and I was staring at my ninety nine cent app with my head down inches from the screen, with gusts all around and I ended up in a horrible ball of carbon, glue and Rotax parts and old Mad Magazines and Playboy Magazines.

How prophetic.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-01-27T15:43:53-05:00 2018-01-27T15:43:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49337#p49337 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Re: :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-27T15:47:23-05:00 2018-01-27T15:47:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49338#p49338
TimTaylor wrote:
ussyorktown wrote:Yes. If I stop posting it is because you are 100% correct and I was staring at my ninety nine cent app with my head down inches from the screen, with gusts all around and I ended up in a horrible ball of carbon, glue and Rotax parts and old Mad Magazines and Playboy Magazines.

How prophetic.


Is Bernath still out suing people? He was SUCH an idiot.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
ussyorktown wrote:Yes. If I stop posting it is because you are 100% correct and I was staring at my ninety nine cent app with my head down inches from the screen, with gusts all around and I ended up in a horrible ball of carbon, glue and Rotax parts and old Mad Magazines and Playboy Magazines.

How prophetic.


Is Bernath still out suing people? He was SUCH an idiot.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T15:50:22-05:00 2018-01-27T15:50:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49339#p49339 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-27T15:53:45-05:00 2018-01-27T15:53:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49340#p49340
TimTaylor wrote:No, he crashed this week.


Ah! I just Googled it. Yup, VERY prophetic.

https://www.news-press.com/story/news/2018/01/24/fort-myers-man-identified-pilot-who-killed-bonita-springs-plane-crash/1061153001/]]>
TimTaylor wrote:No, he crashed this week.


Ah! I just Googled it. Yup, VERY prophetic.

https://www.news-press.com/story/news/2018/01/24/fort-myers-man-identified-pilot-who-killed-bonita-springs-plane-crash/1061153001/]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-01-27T20:24:43-05:00 2018-01-27T20:24:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49349#p49349
Nothing to be gained by continuing the conversation and perhaps even this mope deserves a little respect for the dead from us all?]]>

Nothing to be gained by continuing the conversation and perhaps even this mope deserves a little respect for the dead from us all?]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-27T20:42:27-05:00 2018-01-27T20:42:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49350#p49350
There are lessons to be learned from them.

Schadenfreude involves getting pleasure from the misery of others. I personally get zero feeling of pleasure at Mr. Bernath’s demise. Just frustrated and saddened by the apparent inevitability of it.]]>

There are lessons to be learned from them.

Schadenfreude involves getting pleasure from the misery of others. I personally get zero feeling of pleasure at Mr. Bernath’s demise. Just frustrated and saddened by the apparent inevitability of it.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T21:09:32-05:00 2018-01-27T21:42:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49351#p49351
FastEddieB wrote:A STRONG vote to keep the thread open and to allow the posts to remain for posterity.

There are lessons to be learned from them.

Schadenfreude involves getting pleasure from the misery of others. I personally get zero feeling of pleasure at Mr. Bernath’s demise. Just frustrated and saddened by the apparent inevitability of it.

Agreed. I actually think those who harassed him were in the wrong also. If he broke the law, it should have been handled by law enforcement.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:A STRONG vote to keep the thread open and to allow the posts to remain for posterity.

There are lessons to be learned from them.

Schadenfreude involves getting pleasure from the misery of others. I personally get zero feeling of pleasure at Mr. Bernath’s demise. Just frustrated and saddened by the apparent inevitability of it.

Agreed. I actually think those who harassed him were in the wrong also. If he broke the law, it should have been handled by law enforcement.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-27T21:42:00-05:00 2018-01-27T21:42:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49352#p49352 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-01-27T21:54:46-05:00 2018-01-27T21:54:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49354#p49354
foresterpoole wrote:My personal policy: top the tanks off every time as long as weight and balance allow (which is always since I fly with my wife and my 4 year old at the most. Never trust the fuel gauges, stick the tanks! IPads are wonderful, but their GPS can be 20 feet plus off and can have erratic readings. Better to use them as a supplement to instruments, not a primary flight instrument.

A true fact. In the Army, we were taught the position was accurate to 20 meters! (close enough for a 155mm round). On a recent trail run, known to be 10 km, my wife's wrist Garmin logged 5.4 miles - 0.8 miles short! On short final and roundout, where inches count, very unreliable.]]>
foresterpoole wrote:My personal policy: top the tanks off every time as long as weight and balance allow (which is always since I fly with my wife and my 4 year old at the most. Never trust the fuel gauges, stick the tanks! IPads are wonderful, but their GPS can be 20 feet plus off and can have erratic readings. Better to use them as a supplement to instruments, not a primary flight instrument.

A true fact. In the Army, we were taught the position was accurate to 20 meters! (close enough for a 155mm round). On a recent trail run, known to be 10 km, my wife's wrist Garmin logged 5.4 miles - 0.8 miles short! On short final and roundout, where inches count, very unreliable.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-27T21:59:37-05:00 2018-01-27T21:59:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49355#p49355
foresterpoole wrote:My personal policy: top the tanks off every time as long as weight and balance allow (which is always since I fly with my wife and my 4 year old at the most. Never trust the fuel gauges, stick the tanks! IPads are wonderful, but their GPS can be 20 feet plus off and can have erratic readings. Better to use them as a supplement to instruments, not a primary flight instrument.


The trick is to pair your tablet with an external gps of much greater accuracy... of course , while I prefer my iPad running Garmin Pilot , I still like to have 796 as my “wired” backup.]]>
foresterpoole wrote:My personal policy: top the tanks off every time as long as weight and balance allow (which is always since I fly with my wife and my 4 year old at the most. Never trust the fuel gauges, stick the tanks! IPads are wonderful, but their GPS can be 20 feet plus off and can have erratic readings. Better to use them as a supplement to instruments, not a primary flight instrument.


The trick is to pair your tablet with an external gps of much greater accuracy... of course , while I prefer my iPad running Garmin Pilot , I still like to have 796 as my “wired” backup.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-01-27T22:16:29-05:00 2018-01-27T22:16:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49356#p49356
I remember one where a guy runs out of fuel and lands a C150 on a street. He and his passenger get out and go get a large can of fuel. They pour the fuel in and both climb back in the C150 and attempt a takeoff on the short street with trees and wires across the end. You can guess what happened next.]]>

I remember one where a guy runs out of fuel and lands a C150 on a street. He and his passenger get out and go get a large can of fuel. They pour the fuel in and both climb back in the C150 and attempt a takeoff on the short street with trees and wires across the end. You can guess what happened next.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-01-28T08:48:09-05:00 2018-01-28T08:48:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49359#p49359
Rethought my earlier position and I agree 100% - lock the thread but keep for posterity and educational use. I hope to never serve as an example of what not to do.]]>

Rethought my earlier position and I agree 100% - lock the thread but keep for posterity and educational use. I hope to never serve as an example of what not to do.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-28T10:26:12-05:00 2018-01-28T10:26:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49360#p49360 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-28T10:40:39-05:00 2018-01-28T10:40:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49361#p49361
comperini wrote:I’m curious. Did he ever file a lawsuit against Flight Design for his mistake like he said he was going to do?


Yes, but it was dismissed.

http://ctflier.com/topic/2803-lawsuit-is-over/]]>
comperini wrote:I’m curious. Did he ever file a lawsuit against Flight Design for his mistake like he said he was going to do?


Yes, but it was dismissed.

http://ctflier.com/topic/2803-lawsuit-is-over/]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-01-29T00:58:53-05:00 2018-01-29T00:58:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49363#p49363 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-29T07:18:55-05:00 2018-01-29T07:18:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49365#p49365
http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995]]>

http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Heads up Air speed display on your iPad for .99 cents :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-01T17:28:32-05:00 2018-02-01T17:28:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2574&p=49453#p49453
http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995

RIP, USSYorktown.]]>

http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4995

RIP, USSYorktown.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Wing root tape :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-27T13:38:52-05:00 2018-01-27T13:38:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4988&p=49332#p49332
Image

Like I said, I'm a bit overdue for a retaping job.]]>

Image

Like I said, I'm a bit overdue for a retaping job.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Wing root tape :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-01-27T13:55:39-05:00 2018-01-27T13:55:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4988&p=49333#p49333
Interestingly, the guy who sells this stuff strongly suggests sending him checks vs CC ... nothing wrong with that , obviously he wants to save some money but I think this is the first check I wrote in , I don't know .. long time :-)

BTW Eddie that is some serious taping you got going on there ... Is it due to noise or performance ?]]>

Interestingly, the guy who sells this stuff strongly suggests sending him checks vs CC ... nothing wrong with that , obviously he wants to save some money but I think this is the first check I wrote in , I don't know .. long time :-)

BTW Eddie that is some serious taping you got going on there ... Is it due to noise or performance ?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Wing root tape :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-01-27T14:05:01-05:00 2018-01-27T14:05:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4988&p=49334#p49334
Warmi wrote:
BTW Eddie that is some serious taping you got going on there ... Is it due to noise or performance ?


Have not thought about it a lot - the wing-to-fuselage gap was taped when I bought the plane new, and I've tried to pretty much re-tape along the lines of the original tape each time.]]>
Warmi wrote:
BTW Eddie that is some serious taping you got going on there ... Is it due to noise or performance ?


Have not thought about it a lot - the wing-to-fuselage gap was taped when I bought the plane new, and I've tried to pretty much re-tape along the lines of the original tape each time.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 Bing Carb temp probe :: Reply by chuckb01]]> 2018-01-29T14:45:34-05:00 2018-01-29T14:45:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4955&p=49378#p49378 I did a lot of research and as I see it, a little carb heat from the water cooling system costs me nothing in performance and can do more good than harm. It's installed and has an on/off valve. No big deal.
I was talking about a temp probe in this subject. Sorry about the switch but the two are related. :roll:]]>
I did a lot of research and as I see it, a little carb heat from the water cooling system costs me nothing in performance and can do more good than harm. It's installed and has an on/off valve. No big deal.
I was talking about a temp probe in this subject. Sorry about the switch but the two are related. :roll:]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-29T10:43:02-05:00 2018-01-29T10:43:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49368#p49368
Ice cube test confirmed the bad modules.

At almost $1000 a piece for those modules, I actually considered just installing an ice-maker right above the ignition modules. I think it would have been cheaper ;)]]>

Ice cube test confirmed the bad modules.

At almost $1000 a piece for those modules, I actually considered just installing an ice-maker right above the ignition modules. I think it would have been cheaper ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by bstrachan]]> 2018-01-29T11:31:06-05:00 2018-01-29T11:31:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49372#p49372
These modules have two modes: start and run. There is no issue with the run mode, once the engine starts it will run forever. And if ONE start mode works, the engine will start and run. Only when both start modes fail (and they are intermittent) will the engine refuse to start.

I replaced ONE module a year or so ago, no more starting problems. There is no need to replace both and at $1,000 bucks a crack, well, enough said. All it takes is one module with a working start mode to get the engine going, and I haven't heard of or experienced any problems in the run mode.

Mike Busch recommends a "mag check" in flight, at cruise power. I think this is a good idea. It will show up problems that the runup mag check might miss.

YOUR problem may well be the chokes. My airplane started right up no problems, except when the intermittent module start mode came up bad in both modules. Then no amount of cranking would start the airplane, but if it sat for a few hours or days it would start right up again. I never experienced any backfiring when the engine refused to start. Yours sounds like carb problems to me.]]>

These modules have two modes: start and run. There is no issue with the run mode, once the engine starts it will run forever. And if ONE start mode works, the engine will start and run. Only when both start modes fail (and they are intermittent) will the engine refuse to start.

I replaced ONE module a year or so ago, no more starting problems. There is no need to replace both and at $1,000 bucks a crack, well, enough said. All it takes is one module with a working start mode to get the engine going, and I haven't heard of or experienced any problems in the run mode.

Mike Busch recommends a "mag check" in flight, at cruise power. I think this is a good idea. It will show up problems that the runup mag check might miss.

YOUR problem may well be the chokes. My airplane started right up no problems, except when the intermittent module start mode came up bad in both modules. Then no amount of cranking would start the airplane, but if it sat for a few hours or days it would start right up again. I never experienced any backfiring when the engine refused to start. Yours sounds like carb problems to me.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-01-29T11:47:54-05:00 2018-01-29T11:47:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49373#p49373
Lockwood said one failed, and the other was "intermittent". It's kind of interesting... because for the past maybe 6 months or so, sometimes (maybe once per flight... maybe not at all), I'd get a 10 second or so time, where one mag just stopped working in flight. It's as if I turned it off. You could see it on the tach, and hear it in the engine. A few times on the ground, at idle, sure enough, one tach was inop. Often came back to life at a slightly higher than idle RPM. I was scratching my head, thinking I had a loose wire, or faulty ground. Checked everything, but found nothing.

So yea, I kind of think it was the ignitions afterall.

I understand there's a company overseas that claims to be able to fix these things for about half the price. Can't remember the website I found. I was a little skeptical of that, so I just bit the bullet, and fed the giant Rotax parts machine for new ones]]>

Lockwood said one failed, and the other was "intermittent". It's kind of interesting... because for the past maybe 6 months or so, sometimes (maybe once per flight... maybe not at all), I'd get a 10 second or so time, where one mag just stopped working in flight. It's as if I turned it off. You could see it on the tach, and hear it in the engine. A few times on the ground, at idle, sure enough, one tach was inop. Often came back to life at a slightly higher than idle RPM. I was scratching my head, thinking I had a loose wire, or faulty ground. Checked everything, but found nothing.

So yea, I kind of think it was the ignitions afterall.

I understand there's a company overseas that claims to be able to fix these things for about half the price. Can't remember the website I found. I was a little skeptical of that, so I just bit the bullet, and fed the giant Rotax parts machine for new ones]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by bstrachan]]> 2018-01-29T12:03:20-05:00 2018-01-29T12:03:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49375#p49375
The other thing that's bad is the way the modules are mounted. They are clamped tightly together which drastically reduces the surface area for heat rejection. When I replaced mine, I put a spacer in between to allow some airflow between the modules. Can't hurt.

Good luck and fly safe!]]>

The other thing that's bad is the way the modules are mounted. They are clamped tightly together which drastically reduces the surface area for heat rejection. When I replaced mine, I put a spacer in between to allow some airflow between the modules. Can't hurt.

Good luck and fly safe!]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by David]]> 2018-01-29T19:48:06-05:00 2018-01-29T19:48:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49379#p49379
restlinbaum wrote:I have a 2009 912uls with 1070 hrs. Both carbs have been serviced about 3 months ago. First flight of the day crank and crank but nothing, and if I add some choke it backfires nothing else. I have replaced the battery, and after it finally does start up works fine all day. Starts right up before every flight. It has never kicked back, and has always been a smooth running engine. Any suggestions?

Ray


I wonder if you may have the start of a sprag clutch issue. View this video and see if the symptoms are similar. I did have a sprag clutch go bad at 400 hours

https://youtu.be/wOVwB5EmtRg]]>
restlinbaum wrote:I have a 2009 912uls with 1070 hrs. Both carbs have been serviced about 3 months ago. First flight of the day crank and crank but nothing, and if I add some choke it backfires nothing else. I have replaced the battery, and after it finally does start up works fine all day. Starts right up before every flight. It has never kicked back, and has always been a smooth running engine. Any suggestions?

Ray


I wonder if you may have the start of a sprag clutch issue. View this video and see if the symptoms are similar. I did have a sprag clutch go bad at 400 hours

https://youtu.be/wOVwB5EmtRg]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-09T08:37:11-05:00 2018-02-09T08:37:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49593#p49593
restlinbaum wrote:I have a 2009 912uls with 1070 hrs. Both carbs have been serviced about 3 months ago. First flight of the day crank and crank but nothing, and if I add some choke it backfires nothing else. I have replaced the battery, and after it finally does start up works fine all day. Starts right up before every flight. It has never kicked back, and has always been a smooth running engine. Any suggestions?

Ray


My original 2007 ignition modules died the same way 2 years ago in January of 2016. I couldn't get it to start and throttle and choke adjustments only caused the engine to backfire. Luckily a hangar mate with a Sting let my mechanic swap my modules with his to verify and it started right up.

Back then you could buy a "ignition kit" that included both modules with soft start for $1000. Yes, both modules. They sold out like hotcakes as you can imagine and the "kit" was nowhere to be found anymore. I spent about an hour or so scouring the internet for this "kit" and found one on a shelf in the UK. Shipped to my door it was about $1100 USD. :mrgreen:

And as others have stated the 2006-02007 modules are known to have issues.

The company in the Netherlands that repairs the Ducati ignition modules is https://www.carmo.nl/ I dont remember the cost or turn around time but they can fix them.

Shawn]]>
restlinbaum wrote:I have a 2009 912uls with 1070 hrs. Both carbs have been serviced about 3 months ago. First flight of the day crank and crank but nothing, and if I add some choke it backfires nothing else. I have replaced the battery, and after it finally does start up works fine all day. Starts right up before every flight. It has never kicked back, and has always been a smooth running engine. Any suggestions?

Ray


My original 2007 ignition modules died the same way 2 years ago in January of 2016. I couldn't get it to start and throttle and choke adjustments only caused the engine to backfire. Luckily a hangar mate with a Sting let my mechanic swap my modules with his to verify and it started right up.

Back then you could buy a "ignition kit" that included both modules with soft start for $1000. Yes, both modules. They sold out like hotcakes as you can imagine and the "kit" was nowhere to be found anymore. I spent about an hour or so scouring the internet for this "kit" and found one on a shelf in the UK. Shipped to my door it was about $1100 USD. :mrgreen:

And as others have stated the 2006-02007 modules are known to have issues.

The company in the Netherlands that repairs the Ducati ignition modules is https://www.carmo.nl/ I dont remember the cost or turn around time but they can fix them.

Shawn]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-02-09T08:47:38-05:00 2018-02-09T08:47:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49594#p49594
https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_pag ... 5a8v06jr54]]>

https://www.carmo.nl/index.php?main_pag ... 5a8v06jr54]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by roger lee]]> 2018-02-09T09:36:37-05:00 2018-02-09T09:36:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49595#p49595 Second I have tried along with other experts to remove the rubberized potting material without doing any damage. I have tried it all and it always causes severe damage. The potting material is poured around connections and screwed in parts that there is no way to remove it.
It would not shock me that the company says it does this and only gives you a stock one.
The labor time alone would out weigh the rebuild cost and then add parts and shipping.

Next time you get a bad VR try taking it apart without any damage, marks on the case or having to completely cut it out with a saw. Try using a heat gun on it if you want.

Same with ignition modules who say they can rebuild them. try taking one of those apart.]]>
Second I have tried along with other experts to remove the rubberized potting material without doing any damage. I have tried it all and it always causes severe damage. The potting material is poured around connections and screwed in parts that there is no way to remove it.
It would not shock me that the company says it does this and only gives you a stock one.
The labor time alone would out weigh the rebuild cost and then add parts and shipping.

Next time you get a bad VR try taking it apart without any damage, marks on the case or having to completely cut it out with a saw. Try using a heat gun on it if you want.

Same with ignition modules who say they can rebuild them. try taking one of those apart.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-02-09T11:19:02-05:00 2018-02-09T11:19:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49596#p49596
I thought a single OEM module was $1000? If they are in fact "only" $350 each, then yes, no reason to seek a rebuilt one at all.]]>

I thought a single OEM module was $1000? If they are in fact "only" $350 each, then yes, no reason to seek a rebuilt one at all.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by bstrachan]]> 2018-02-09T11:21:12-05:00 2018-02-09T11:21:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49597#p49597 <![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by comperini]]> 2018-02-09T11:22:13-05:00 2018-02-09T11:22:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49598#p49598 <![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-09T12:08:59-05:00 2018-02-09T12:08:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49599#p49599
bstrachan wrote:I'd love to know where to get one of these modules for $350.00 dollars.


I, too wondered what Roger meant when he said, “First it would be far cheaper to just replace the stock one...”

I was “lucky” enough to only pay about $1,000 for two modules when mine failed.]]>
bstrachan wrote:I'd love to know where to get one of these modules for $350.00 dollars.


I, too wondered what Roger meant when he said, “First it would be far cheaper to just replace the stock one...”

I was “lucky” enough to only pay about $1,000 for two modules when mine failed.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-09T17:34:40-05:00 2018-02-09T17:34:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49601#p49601
bstrachan wrote:I'd love to know where to get one of these modules for $350.00 dollars.


I wonder if the part is being confused with an ignition coil vs. an ignition module? Never mind - clicking the linky above took me to the NL site. But those would be repairing your own for $350-ish dollars.

New modules are about $1000 - 1300 (Leading edge has them at $1,2271 each) $1,000 each would be a good price.]]>
bstrachan wrote:I'd love to know where to get one of these modules for $350.00 dollars.


I wonder if the part is being confused with an ignition coil vs. an ignition module? Never mind - clicking the linky above took me to the NL site. But those would be repairing your own for $350-ish dollars.

New modules are about $1000 - 1300 (Leading edge has them at $1,2271 each) $1,000 each would be a good price.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-12T10:12:15-05:00 2018-02-12T10:34:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49614#p49614
roger lee wrote:I'm seriously questioning this company overseas. First it would be far cheaper to just replace the stock on.
Second I have tried along with other experts to remove the rubberized potting material without doing any damage. I have tried it all and it always causes severe damage. The potting material is poured around connections and screwed in parts that there is no way to remove it.
It would not shock me that the company says it does this and only gives you a stock one.
The labor time alone would out weigh the rebuild cost and then add parts and shipping.

Next time you get a bad VR try taking it apart without any damage, marks on the case or having to completely cut it out with a saw. Try using a heat gun on it if you want.

Same with ignition modules who say they can rebuild them. try taking one of those apart.


Roger,

We are talking about the IGNITION MODULE not the voltage regulator. The VR is cheaper to replace than to try and repair. :mrgreen:

The company in the Netherlands repairs the ignition modules. And even opening one of these is nearly impossible. So instead they remove a small section on the back side where the 2 bad parts are that need to be replaced. After they replace the parts they re-pot the area.

I just found my email from Carmo and back in 2016 when I inquired about a repair. I was quoted €183 each which at todays exchange rate is about $225 each to repair.

Are we on the same page now?]]>
roger lee wrote:I'm seriously questioning this company overseas. First it would be far cheaper to just replace the stock on.
Second I have tried along with other experts to remove the rubberized potting material without doing any damage. I have tried it all and it always causes severe damage. The potting material is poured around connections and screwed in parts that there is no way to remove it.
It would not shock me that the company says it does this and only gives you a stock one.
The labor time alone would out weigh the rebuild cost and then add parts and shipping.

Next time you get a bad VR try taking it apart without any damage, marks on the case or having to completely cut it out with a saw. Try using a heat gun on it if you want.

Same with ignition modules who say they can rebuild them. try taking one of those apart.


Roger,

We are talking about the IGNITION MODULE not the voltage regulator. The VR is cheaper to replace than to try and repair. :mrgreen:

The company in the Netherlands repairs the ignition modules. And even opening one of these is nearly impossible. So instead they remove a small section on the back side where the 2 bad parts are that need to be replaced. After they replace the parts they re-pot the area.

I just found my email from Carmo and back in 2016 when I inquired about a repair. I was quoted €183 each which at todays exchange rate is about $225 each to repair.

Are we on the same page now?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-12T10:21:37-05:00 2018-02-12T10:21:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49615#p49615
bstrachan wrote:I'd love to know where to get one of these modules for $350.00 dollars.


There is some confusion here.......

Ignition modules are $931.12 each from Lockwood and you need 2

Voltage regulators are $147.57 from Lockwood and you need 1]]>
bstrachan wrote:I'd love to know where to get one of these modules for $350.00 dollars.


There is some confusion here.......

Ignition modules are $931.12 each from Lockwood and you need 2

Voltage regulators are $147.57 from Lockwood and you need 1]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by bstrachan]]> 2018-02-12T10:51:32-05:00 2018-02-12T10:51:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49616#p49616 one module a year or so ago, no more issues.

NOTE: This is just my personal opinion, I am not an A&P or an expert on Rotax ignition problems. If you are concerned about the reliability of your ignition, replace both modules. It's only money.

Also, as I said before, the way these things are sandwiched tightly together is asking for trouble. Heat is the enemy of electronics and these modules get hot. I put a 1/4" spacer between mine and that allows for some airflow. Easy to do and can't hurt.]]>
one module a year or so ago, no more issues.

NOTE: This is just my personal opinion, I am not an A&P or an expert on Rotax ignition problems. If you are concerned about the reliability of your ignition, replace both modules. It's only money.

Also, as I said before, the way these things are sandwiched tightly together is asking for trouble. Heat is the enemy of electronics and these modules get hot. I put a 1/4" spacer between mine and that allows for some airflow. Easy to do and can't hurt.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-12T18:08:31-05:00 2018-02-12T18:08:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49617#p49617
bstrachan wrote:Also, as I said before, the way these things are sandwiched tightly together is asking for trouble. Heat is the enemy of electronics and these modules get hot. I put a 1/4" spacer between mine and that allows for some airflow. Easy to do and can't hurt.


Great idea and also add the Thermax temp strips to each module so you can keep track of how hot they may or may not get. I have the 149° to 199° range strips and they haven't reached 149°. :mrgreen:]]>
bstrachan wrote:Also, as I said before, the way these things are sandwiched tightly together is asking for trouble. Heat is the enemy of electronics and these modules get hot. I put a 1/4" spacer between mine and that allows for some airflow. Easy to do and can't hurt.


Great idea and also add the Thermax temp strips to each module so you can keep track of how hot they may or may not get. I have the 149° to 199° range strips and they haven't reached 149°. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by bstrachan]]> 2018-02-12T18:52:02-05:00 2018-02-12T18:52:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49618#p49618
Great idea and also add the Thermax temp strips to each module so you can keep track of how hot they may or may not get. I have the 149° to 199° range strips and they haven't reached 149°.


I've wondered how hot mine get. I'd like to put a temporary temp probe on them, but snaking it through the firewall is a challenge. And I'm not sure I could do anything more to cool them even if I didn't like what I saw. Somebody suggested mounting an ice machine on top of the engine (heh, heh) but you'd have to get a Letter of Authorization to do that :mrgreen:

I would hope the jokers who build these modules use MIL SPEC parts (and I don't want to open that can of worms here!).]]>
Great idea and also add the Thermax temp strips to each module so you can keep track of how hot they may or may not get. I have the 149° to 199° range strips and they haven't reached 149°.


I've wondered how hot mine get. I'd like to put a temporary temp probe on them, but snaking it through the firewall is a challenge. And I'm not sure I could do anything more to cool them even if I didn't like what I saw. Somebody suggested mounting an ice machine on top of the engine (heh, heh) but you'd have to get a Letter of Authorization to do that :mrgreen:

I would hope the jokers who build these modules use MIL SPEC parts (and I don't want to open that can of worms here!).]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-02-13T08:40:09-05:00 2018-02-13T08:40:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49620#p49620
bstrachan wrote:I've wondered how hot mine get. I'd like to put a temporary temp probe on them, but snaking it through the firewall is a challenge. And I'm not sure I could do anything more to cool them even if I didn't like what I saw. Somebody suggested mounting an ice machine on top of the engine (heh, heh) but you'd have to get a Letter of Authorization to do that :mrgreen:

I would hope the jokers who build these modules use MIL SPEC parts (and I don't want to open that can of worms here!).


The temp strips will tell you how hot they get. My cowling always comes off for the first flight of the day and I can see from a quick glance at the strips if if even got to 149 degrees. I have 3 strips to monitor, one one each ign module and one on the voltage regulator.

The components in the ign module are all off the shelf parts. There is a guy who makes aftermarket modules with improved components against heat related failures for experimentals.]]>
bstrachan wrote:I've wondered how hot mine get. I'd like to put a temporary temp probe on them, but snaking it through the firewall is a challenge. And I'm not sure I could do anything more to cool them even if I didn't like what I saw. Somebody suggested mounting an ice machine on top of the engine (heh, heh) but you'd have to get a Letter of Authorization to do that :mrgreen:

I would hope the jokers who build these modules use MIL SPEC parts (and I don't want to open that can of worms here!).


The temp strips will tell you how hot they get. My cowling always comes off for the first flight of the day and I can see from a quick glance at the strips if if even got to 149 degrees. I have 3 strips to monitor, one one each ign module and one on the voltage regulator.

The components in the ign module are all off the shelf parts. There is a guy who makes aftermarket modules with improved components against heat related failures for experimentals.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: 912 uls very hard time to start :: Reply by roger lee]]> 2018-02-13T16:11:53-05:00 2018-02-13T16:11:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=4366&p=49627#p49627 Same with the VR.

170F is a killer.]]>
Same with the VR.

170F is a killer.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Winter Ops :: Author Warmi]]> 2018-02-02T14:20:51-05:00 2018-02-02T14:20:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49483#p49483

Went for a flight today, very nice weather , a bit bumpy and rather cold with only 10F.
I have flown in about 3F so I wasn't worried - the oil was OKish etc but ...

About 10 minutes into a flight I heard a crack followed by some moderate wind noise ( which quickly went away .) Couldn't figure out what it was but decided to land anyway and after walking around the plane a few times I finally spotted the culprit.
It was the plexiglas around the GRS window grommet - it cracked a bit and I can only assume it was due to cold weather combined with some minor bumps.

I landed at my mechanics place so we drilled the hole to stop the crack but it does look like I will have to replace the back window and the grommet. Oh well, another expense and another lesson learned - don't fly in cold weather .... how cold , well my new limit is 32 F

Attachments


Cracked Plexiglass
crack1.jpg (61.71 KiB)
Cracked Plexiglass


crack2.jpg (91.19 KiB)


]]>


Went for a flight today, very nice weather , a bit bumpy and rather cold with only 10F.
I have flown in about 3F so I wasn't worried - the oil was OKish etc but ...

About 10 minutes into a flight I heard a crack followed by some moderate wind noise ( which quickly went away .) Couldn't figure out what it was but decided to land anyway and after walking around the plane a few times I finally spotted the culprit.
It was the plexiglas around the GRS window grommet - it cracked a bit and I can only assume it was due to cold weather combined with some minor bumps.

I landed at my mechanics place so we drilled the hole to stop the crack but it does look like I will have to replace the back window and the grommet. Oh well, another expense and another lesson learned - don't fly in cold weather .... how cold , well my new limit is 32 F

Attachments


Cracked Plexiglass
crack1.jpg (61.71 KiB)
Cracked Plexiglass


crack2.jpg (91.19 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T15:57:01-05:00 2018-02-02T15:57:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49490#p49490 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-02T16:02:03-05:00 2018-02-02T16:02:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49491#p49491 I am but will see how much I get quoted for fixing it - I may stop being concerned with the visuals if it is too much :-)]]> I am but will see how much I get quoted for fixing it - I may stop being concerned with the visuals if it is too much :-)]]> <![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-02-02T16:06:51-05:00 2018-02-02T16:06:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49492#p49492 <![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-02T16:12:47-05:00 2018-02-02T16:12:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49493#p49493 The choice of carbon or metal for the plane itself was irrelevant here. There is no structural body damage here and the visible crack is just the outer-skin affected by the cracked acrylic underneath.]]> The choice of carbon or metal for the plane itself was irrelevant here. There is no structural body damage here and the visible crack is just the outer-skin affected by the cracked acrylic underneath.]]> <![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-02T16:24:12-05:00 2018-02-02T16:24:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49494#p49494
http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4890470314001]]>

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4890470314001]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-02T16:32:11-05:00 2018-02-02T16:32:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49495#p49495
TimTaylor wrote:Another reason I prefer the SkyCatcher and RV 12.


They have transparencies that can crack too. It is not something that is relegated to composite airplanes.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Another reason I prefer the SkyCatcher and RV 12.


They have transparencies that can crack too. It is not something that is relegated to composite airplanes.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-02T16:44:06-05:00 2018-02-02T16:44:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49496#p49496

Anyway, I will probably not bother replacing anything there for now since the crack is so minor and can be handled rather cheaply but boy I am wondering if I am just unlucky or other plane owners have similar issues with minor cracks/fixes etc ... I just started flying , if that's the norm I am not sure I want to continue :-)]]>


Anyway, I will probably not bother replacing anything there for now since the crack is so minor and can be handled rather cheaply but boy I am wondering if I am just unlucky or other plane owners have similar issues with minor cracks/fixes etc ... I just started flying , if that's the norm I am not sure I want to continue :-)]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-02-02T16:51:47-05:00 2018-02-02T16:51:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49498#p49498
Warmi wrote:DrSeti: I actually have seen this video before , pretty freaky near mid-air - didn't pay attention to the canopy repair portion back then though :-)

Anyway, I will probably not bother replacing anything there for now since the crack is so minor and can be handled rather cheaply but boy I am wondering if I am just unlucky or other plane owners have similar issues with minor cracks/fixes etc ... I just started flying , if that's the norm I am not sure I want to continue :-)


I have owned several airplanes over the years, and have not had any crack transparencies. As a mechanic though I have replaced some that have been cracked for customers. I wouldn't say that it is a common problem, but some airplanes seem to have more issues than others.]]>
Warmi wrote:DrSeti: I actually have seen this video before , pretty freaky near mid-air - didn't pay attention to the canopy repair portion back then though :-)

Anyway, I will probably not bother replacing anything there for now since the crack is so minor and can be handled rather cheaply but boy I am wondering if I am just unlucky or other plane owners have similar issues with minor cracks/fixes etc ... I just started flying , if that's the norm I am not sure I want to continue :-)


I have owned several airplanes over the years, and have not had any crack transparencies. As a mechanic though I have replaced some that have been cracked for customers. I wouldn't say that it is a common problem, but some airplanes seem to have more issues than others.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-02-02T17:54:58-05:00 2018-02-02T17:54:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49501#p49501
Warmi wrote:My bad luck ( or my learning curve ) continues :)
Went for a flight today, very nice weather , a bit bumpy and rather cold with only 10F.
I have flown in about 3F so I wasn't worried - the oil was OKish etc but ...
About 10 minutes into a flight I heard a crack followed by some moderate wind noise ( which quickly went away .) Couldn't figure out what it was but decided to land anyway and after walking around the plane a few times I finally spotted the culprit.
It was the plexiglas around the GRS window grommet - it cracked a bit and I can only assume it was due to cold weather combined with some minor bumps.
I landed at my mechanics place so we drilled the hole to stop the crack but it does look like I will have to replace the back window and the grommet. Oh well, another expense and another lesson learned - don't fly in cold weather .... how cold , well my new limit is 32 F

Very unfortunate.]]>
Warmi wrote:My bad luck ( or my learning curve ) continues :)
Went for a flight today, very nice weather , a bit bumpy and rather cold with only 10F.
I have flown in about 3F so I wasn't worried - the oil was OKish etc but ...
About 10 minutes into a flight I heard a crack followed by some moderate wind noise ( which quickly went away .) Couldn't figure out what it was but decided to land anyway and after walking around the plane a few times I finally spotted the culprit.
It was the plexiglas around the GRS window grommet - it cracked a bit and I can only assume it was due to cold weather combined with some minor bumps.
I landed at my mechanics place so we drilled the hole to stop the crack but it does look like I will have to replace the back window and the grommet. Oh well, another expense and another lesson learned - don't fly in cold weather .... how cold , well my new limit is 32 F

Very unfortunate.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-02T18:51:40-05:00 2018-02-02T18:51:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49504#p49504
]]>

]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-04T08:12:23-05:00 2018-02-04T08:12:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49508#p49508
drseti wrote:If you want to see just what's involved in repairing a (much more severely) cracked plexiglass canopy, see my Near Midair Collision webinar at:

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4890470314001


Sorry Bob, gotta ask... I was surprised in your Florida incident that the Controller continued his rapid speech when it was clear you had noise and confusion.

Not sure I would have made any reports after landing until I was sure my adrenalin level was back down to normal :)

With all the expenses, I assume you filed a claim. Did your insurance company attempt to subrogate for their loss?]]>
drseti wrote:If you want to see just what's involved in repairing a (much more severely) cracked plexiglass canopy, see my Near Midair Collision webinar at:

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4890470314001


Sorry Bob, gotta ask... I was surprised in your Florida incident that the Controller continued his rapid speech when it was clear you had noise and confusion.

Not sure I would have made any reports after landing until I was sure my adrenalin level was back down to normal :)

With all the expenses, I assume you filed a claim. Did your insurance company attempt to subrogate for their loss?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T08:56:39-05:00 2018-02-04T08:56:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49509#p49509
Jim Hardin wrote:With all the expenses, I assume you filed a claim. Did your insurance company attempt to subrogate for their loss?


I was very lucky, Jim. I filed a claim as soon as I finished talking to FAA and filing my NASA ASRS report. They were great about working with me, and paid everything except my $1000 deductible. No subrogation of which I am aware. Didn't even raise my premium the following year. My carrier is Starr, and I work through Falcon, the EAA Insurance Agency in Kerrville TX. Can't say enough good things about them.

And, folks, please do forgive the thread drift. :)]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:With all the expenses, I assume you filed a claim. Did your insurance company attempt to subrogate for their loss?


I was very lucky, Jim. I filed a claim as soon as I finished talking to FAA and filing my NASA ASRS report. They were great about working with me, and paid everything except my $1000 deductible. No subrogation of which I am aware. Didn't even raise my premium the following year. My carrier is Starr, and I work through Falcon, the EAA Insurance Agency in Kerrville TX. Can't say enough good things about them.

And, folks, please do forgive the thread drift. :)]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-04T09:35:51-05:00 2018-02-04T09:35:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49511#p49511
Sure, many materials get more brittle at cold temps, but a plane should be capable of flying in any foreseen temperatures without parts starting to crack.]]>

Sure, many materials get more brittle at cold temps, but a plane should be capable of flying in any foreseen temperatures without parts starting to crack.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-04T09:49:54-05:00 2018-02-04T09:49:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49512#p49512 It is a very minor crack -it actually looks worse on the picture than in real life and I already have a fix for it which was pretty cheap, looks good and has been approved by the dealer.

If that was some kind of common occurrence , I would start asking more questions but since, as I was informed, this is only the second plane that had this issue ( out of many hundreds sold) I can only guess that it was some kind of manufacturing issue with the plexiglass canopy part in the first place. I mean, it was a bit bumpy that day, but as you can see on the video, it wasn’t putting any kind of undue stress on the airframe.]]>
It is a very minor crack -it actually looks worse on the picture than in real life and I already have a fix for it which was pretty cheap, looks good and has been approved by the dealer.

If that was some kind of common occurrence , I would start asking more questions but since, as I was informed, this is only the second plane that had this issue ( out of many hundreds sold) I can only guess that it was some kind of manufacturing issue with the plexiglass canopy part in the first place. I mean, it was a bit bumpy that day, but as you can see on the video, it wasn’t putting any kind of undue stress on the airframe.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-02-04T10:00:34-05:00 2018-02-04T10:00:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49514#p49514
Warmi wrote: I already have a fix for it which was pretty cheap, looks good and has been approved by the dealer.


Glad to hear that. Details?]]>
Warmi wrote: I already have a fix for it which was pretty cheap, looks good and has been approved by the dealer.


Glad to hear that. Details?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-04T10:08:35-05:00 2018-02-04T10:08:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49515#p49515
drseti wrote:
Warmi wrote: I already have a fix for it which was pretty cheap, looks good and has been approved by the dealer.


Glad to hear that. Details?

The same as for the other plane with the cracked canopy. Fill the join with silicone and then apply electrical tape on top. The aft canopy overlaps the lip of the fuselage and the crack will not migrate from one material to another so , since the crack already reached the edge of the plexiglass, it won’t go any further.
in terms of visuals, I will apply a nice vinyl decal to make it look like it was there on purpose]]>
drseti wrote:
Warmi wrote: I already have a fix for it which was pretty cheap, looks good and has been approved by the dealer.


Glad to hear that. Details?

The same as for the other plane with the cracked canopy. Fill the join with silicone and then apply electrical tape on top. The aft canopy overlaps the lip of the fuselage and the crack will not migrate from one material to another so , since the crack already reached the edge of the plexiglass, it won’t go any further.
in terms of visuals, I will apply a nice vinyl decal to make it look like it was there on purpose]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-19T15:38:23-05:00 2018-02-19T15:38:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49712#p49712
Below are some pictures - the original crack + the new star-themed vinyl graphic I designed to cover the crack/fix without replacing the entire back canopy.

Attachments



crack_fix1.jpg (103.88 KiB)



crack_fix2.jpg (86.16 KiB)



Orig_crak.jpg (104.96 KiB)


]]>

Below are some pictures - the original crack + the new star-themed vinyl graphic I designed to cover the crack/fix without replacing the entire back canopy.

Attachments



crack_fix1.jpg (103.88 KiB)



crack_fix2.jpg (86.16 KiB)



Orig_crak.jpg (104.96 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-19T15:51:42-05:00 2018-02-19T15:51:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49713#p49713
Admittedly better than a giant Bandaid or bullet hole decals.

Though the latter might have had some warped appeal!]]>

Admittedly better than a giant Bandaid or bullet hole decals.

Though the latter might have had some warped appeal!]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Winter Ops :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-02-19T16:23:48-05:00 2018-02-19T16:23:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5003&p=49715#p49715 Image

but ... nah , it falls into the same "bullet hole" graphics category ( as you mentioned ) - stuff that looks cool at first but then gets old rather fast :-)

Anyway, the design itself , as usual, is in the eye of beholder but I think for the price of the fix, I would have been hard pressed to come up with something better.]]>
Image

but ... nah , it falls into the same "bullet hole" graphics category ( as you mentioned ) - stuff that looks cool at first but then gets old rather fast :-)

Anyway, the design itself , as usual, is in the eye of beholder but I think for the price of the fix, I would have been hard pressed to come up with something better.]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Alton Bay Ice Runway 2018 :: Author David]]> 2018-02-17T21:29:54-05:00 2018-02-17T21:29:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5012&p=49664#p49664
But great fun! :D

The guys do a great job of managing the runway and taxi areas. They keep the information available on current conditions via their record message or visit the Alton Bay Facebook page for up to date information.

Image

Image

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.]]>

But great fun! :D

The guys do a great job of managing the runway and taxi areas. They keep the information available on current conditions via their record message or visit the Alton Bay Facebook page for up to date information.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
.
.


.]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Alton Bay Ice Runway 2018 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-18T08:57:36-05:00 2018-02-18T08:57:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5012&p=49669#p49669
VERY cool (cold!).

Sounds like something to put on our bucket list.

Thanks for sharing!]]>

VERY cool (cold!).

Sounds like something to put on our bucket list.

Thanks for sharing!]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Alton Bay Ice Runway 2018 :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-02-18T11:07:46-05:00 2018-02-18T11:07:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5012&p=49673#p49673
Of course you always use full rudder and opposite aileron. The plane will turn to the 'down' aileron (seaplane trick).

Sometimes it is just too icy though. Great pics, were the low angles ones taken before you got back to your feet? :lol:]]>

Of course you always use full rudder and opposite aileron. The plane will turn to the 'down' aileron (seaplane trick).

Sometimes it is just too icy though. Great pics, were the low angles ones taken before you got back to your feet? :lol:]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Alton Bay Ice Runway 2018 :: Reply by David]]> 2018-02-19T15:52:07-05:00 2018-02-19T15:52:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5012&p=49714#p49714
Jim Hardin wrote:I don't recall having any issues with ice steering in the Grummans, Tiger, Cheetah and TR2's.

Of course you always use full rudder and opposite aileron. The plane will turn to the 'down' aileron (seaplane trick).

Sometimes it is just too icy though. Great pics, were the low angles ones taken before you got back to your feet? :lol:


Not sure does the Grumman’s, Tiger, etc.. have steerable or castering nose gears? the RV is Castering and only differential braking. For steering until you have cruder authority.

Died laughing at the the “Great pics, were the low angles ones taken before you got back to your feet?“. Ice grippers on my shoes :D]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:I don't recall having any issues with ice steering in the Grummans, Tiger, Cheetah and TR2's.

Of course you always use full rudder and opposite aileron. The plane will turn to the 'down' aileron (seaplane trick).

Sometimes it is just too icy though. Great pics, were the low angles ones taken before you got back to your feet? :lol:


Not sure does the Grumman’s, Tiger, etc.. have steerable or castering nose gears? the RV is Castering and only differential braking. For steering until you have cruder authority.

Died laughing at the the “Great pics, were the low angles ones taken before you got back to your feet?“. Ice grippers on my shoes :D]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Alton Bay Ice Runway 2018 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-19T17:56:05-05:00 2018-02-19T17:56:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5012&p=49719#p49719 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Author Scooper]]> 2018-02-13T13:34:49-05:00 2018-02-13T13:34:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49622#p49622
Image

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<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-13T14:36:37-05:00 2018-02-13T14:36:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49623#p49623 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-02-13T14:56:51-05:00 2018-02-13T14:56:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49624#p49624
Most I’ve done with the two oldest grandkids (ages 6 and 8) is taxi them around in the Sky Arrow.

Just waiting for Mom to say it’s OK. With the big EXPERIMENTAL on the side, some trepidation is easy to understand!]]>

Most I’ve done with the two oldest grandkids (ages 6 and 8) is taxi them around in the Sky Arrow.

Just waiting for Mom to say it’s OK. With the big EXPERIMENTAL on the side, some trepidation is easy to understand!]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-13T17:14:26-05:00 2018-02-13T17:14:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49628#p49628 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by David]]> 2018-02-17T21:56:47-05:00 2018-02-17T21:56:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49665#p49665 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-02-22T13:36:21-05:00 2018-02-22T13:36:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49815#p49815
See what happened after you put him in the cockpit of your plane?


Image]]>

See what happened after you put him in the cockpit of your plane?


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<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-02-22T13:49:16-05:00 2018-02-22T13:49:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49816#p49816 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Weekend trip to Palm Springs (PSP) and La Verne (POC) :: Reply by RTK]]> 2018-02-23T21:46:46-05:00 2018-02-23T21:46:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5008&p=49832#p49832 :D

Fantastic photo!]]>
:D

Fantastic photo!]]>