<![CDATA[Sport Pilot Talk]]> http://sportpilottalk.com 2018-12-19T04:24:09-05:00 Smartfeed Extension for phpBB 3.1 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Hi from CT :: Author Atrosa]]> 2018-11-20T16:12:44-05:00 2018-11-20T16:12:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53905#p53905 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by joey4420]]> 2018-11-20T17:29:03-05:00 2018-11-20T17:29:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53906#p53906 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-20T18:03:37-05:00 2018-11-20T18:03:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53907#p53907
Welcome to this GREAT forum and best wishes on your journey.]]>

Welcome to this GREAT forum and best wishes on your journey.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T18:10:37-05:00 2018-11-20T18:10:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53908#p53908 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-11-20T18:25:48-05:00 2018-11-20T18:25:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53909#p53909 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T18:53:41-05:00 2018-11-20T18:53:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53910#p53910
The dilemma that can happen is you can't find an LSA close by. One solution is to get a 3rd class FAA medical and train for a Private Pilot certificate. The other solution is to travel to a flight school that does have LSA. Or, you can just dive in and purchase your own LSA from the get-go.

If you can't find an LSA but don't want to risk an FAA 3rd class medical, you could start training in a Cessna or Piper up to the point you're ready to solo. At that point, you might be confident you want to proceed with the purchase of an LSA.]]>

The dilemma that can happen is you can't find an LSA close by. One solution is to get a 3rd class FAA medical and train for a Private Pilot certificate. The other solution is to travel to a flight school that does have LSA. Or, you can just dive in and purchase your own LSA from the get-go.

If you can't find an LSA but don't want to risk an FAA 3rd class medical, you could start training in a Cessna or Piper up to the point you're ready to solo. At that point, you might be confident you want to proceed with the purchase of an LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-20T19:11:02-05:00 2018-11-20T19:11:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53911#p53911
Why oh why wasn't I born rich instead of so good lookin'?

lol]]>

Why oh why wasn't I born rich instead of so good lookin'?

lol]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T19:36:46-05:00 2018-11-20T19:36:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53912#p53912
chicagorandy wrote:Dang, all these folks a buyin' aer-ee-oh planes. Good on ya' mates.

Why oh why wasn't I born rich instead of so good lookin'?

lol

Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby. That's because there are not enough LSA around to rent. So, you almost have to purchase your own LSA. Younger people are more able to get an FAA medical without all the health issues we older people have or think we might have. There are always lots of non-LSA aircraft available to rent almost everywhere if you have a Private certificate and a medical or Basic Med.]]>
chicagorandy wrote:Dang, all these folks a buyin' aer-ee-oh planes. Good on ya' mates.

Why oh why wasn't I born rich instead of so good lookin'?

lol

Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby. That's because there are not enough LSA around to rent. So, you almost have to purchase your own LSA. Younger people are more able to get an FAA medical without all the health issues we older people have or think we might have. There are always lots of non-LSA aircraft available to rent almost everywhere if you have a Private certificate and a medical or Basic Med.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T02:29:53-05:00 2018-11-21T02:29:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53913#p53913
TimTaylor wrote: Any CFI can teach a Sport Pilot, so finding a CFI should not be a problem if you own your own plane.


Any CFI can (legally) teach SP. That doesn't mean any CFI will, or even should. Not all CFIs know, or care about, the SP rules, limitations, and privileges. Not all CFIs understand light wing loading, low inertia, or high drag aircraft. Not all CFIs can even necessarily fit in an LSA without overgrossing it. And some just don't believe in the whole SP concept, and will refuse to train at that level. So finding a CFI should be easy, but often isn't.]]>
TimTaylor wrote: Any CFI can teach a Sport Pilot, so finding a CFI should not be a problem if you own your own plane.


Any CFI can (legally) teach SP. That doesn't mean any CFI will, or even should. Not all CFIs know, or care about, the SP rules, limitations, and privileges. Not all CFIs understand light wing loading, low inertia, or high drag aircraft. Not all CFIs can even necessarily fit in an LSA without overgrossing it. And some just don't believe in the whole SP concept, and will refuse to train at that level. So finding a CFI should be easy, but often isn't.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-21T08:58:12-05:00 2018-11-21T08:58:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53916#p53916
I did exactly what you want to do, buy your own plane and train it it. I started my initial training in a Remos at a flight school just north of Orlando when I lived there. Very soon after I bought my very own (used) SportCruiser. You mentioned buying a Czech Sport. :mrgreen: I finished all my training and took my checkride in my own plane. Very satisfying for sure. A lot can be said for owning your own plane.

LSA's are a lot of fun and a joy to fly and at the same time easy to maintain. If you are into "gadgets" there's no shortage of that either. I love flying a modern airplane with it's many safety features and equipment that lessen my workload as a pilot. There are many, many great LSA's out there and I must say that you have great taste in airplanes, the SportCruiser is the best. (did I just swat a hornets nest?) :mrgreen:

Don't let the idea that "Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby" deter you, maybe you are old and rich, I dont know. I'm neither and I love sport pilot and LSA. I'm usually one of the younger people at my local aviation gatherings. I know several "younger" LSA owners and pilots. Rich? Not even close. I dig through the couch cushions before I head to the airport so I can buy just a little more fuel for the day. :mrgreen:

Whatever you decide to do I will say you won't be disappointed with a sport pilot rating and a wonderful LSA.

Blue skies Tony and enjoy your adventure.]]>

I did exactly what you want to do, buy your own plane and train it it. I started my initial training in a Remos at a flight school just north of Orlando when I lived there. Very soon after I bought my very own (used) SportCruiser. You mentioned buying a Czech Sport. :mrgreen: I finished all my training and took my checkride in my own plane. Very satisfying for sure. A lot can be said for owning your own plane.

LSA's are a lot of fun and a joy to fly and at the same time easy to maintain. If you are into "gadgets" there's no shortage of that either. I love flying a modern airplane with it's many safety features and equipment that lessen my workload as a pilot. There are many, many great LSA's out there and I must say that you have great taste in airplanes, the SportCruiser is the best. (did I just swat a hornets nest?) :mrgreen:

Don't let the idea that "Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby" deter you, maybe you are old and rich, I dont know. I'm neither and I love sport pilot and LSA. I'm usually one of the younger people at my local aviation gatherings. I know several "younger" LSA owners and pilots. Rich? Not even close. I dig through the couch cushions before I head to the airport so I can buy just a little more fuel for the day. :mrgreen:

Whatever you decide to do I will say you won't be disappointed with a sport pilot rating and a wonderful LSA.

Blue skies Tony and enjoy your adventure.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-11-21T10:15:53-05:00 2018-11-21T10:15:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53920#p53920 <![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-21T10:59:31-05:00 2018-11-21T10:59:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53922#p53922
Also, rich is a relative term. If you can afford to purchase an airplane, rent or purchase a hanger, and maintain and operate your own airplane, you are rich compared to the average American. Many cannot afford food and medical care. Most are just trying to make it month to month and plan for some sort of reasonable retirement.

Many, but not all, younger people opt for a Private certificate because they can't afford their own airplane and can easily find a non-LSA to rent. OF COURSE, there are exceptions to this. A new LSA is certainly more affordable to purchase than a new non-LSA.

I was responding to ChicagoAndy.]]>

Also, rich is a relative term. If you can afford to purchase an airplane, rent or purchase a hanger, and maintain and operate your own airplane, you are rich compared to the average American. Many cannot afford food and medical care. Most are just trying to make it month to month and plan for some sort of reasonable retirement.

Many, but not all, younger people opt for a Private certificate because they can't afford their own airplane and can easily find a non-LSA to rent. OF COURSE, there are exceptions to this. A new LSA is certainly more affordable to purchase than a new non-LSA.

I was responding to ChicagoAndy.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by amster105]]> 2018-11-21T12:37:49-05:00 2018-11-21T12:37:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53924#p53924
I'm from CT as well. I used to rent from Danbury, but they no longer have an LSA for rent.

There is a Light Sport at Chester, CT, even though it doesn't say it on their website. I'm not sure how far that is from you but that could be one option.]]>

I'm from CT as well. I used to rent from Danbury, but they no longer have an LSA for rent.

There is a Light Sport at Chester, CT, even though it doesn't say it on their website. I'm not sure how far that is from you but that could be one option.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-21T13:10:39-05:00 2018-11-21T13:10:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53927#p53927
And I will take that as a response to ME as well.

lol]]>

And I will take that as a response to ME as well.

lol]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-21T15:12:24-05:00 2018-11-21T15:12:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53932#p53932
chicagorandy wrote:"I was responding to ChicagoAndy"

And I will take that as a response to ME as well.

lol
Is he your brother?]]>
chicagorandy wrote:"I was responding to ChicagoAndy"

And I will take that as a response to ME as well.

lol
Is he your brother?]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by Andrew G]]> 2018-11-21T15:33:02-05:00 2018-11-21T15:33:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53936#p53936
Will be transitioning to (my) CT beginning this Saturday weather permitting. Andrew]]>

Will be transitioning to (my) CT beginning this Saturday weather permitting. Andrew]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-21T20:05:56-05:00 2018-11-21T20:05:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53941#p53941
TimTaylor wrote:
chicagorandy wrote:"I was responding to ChicagoAndy"

And I will take that as a response to ME as well.

lol
Is he your brother?


No, but there are doubtless aviation interested Andrews here in my home town. lol]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
chicagorandy wrote:"I was responding to ChicagoAndy"

And I will take that as a response to ME as well.

lol
Is he your brother?


No, but there are doubtless aviation interested Andrews here in my home town. lol]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-11-21T21:00:57-05:00 2018-11-21T21:00:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53942#p53942
ShawnM wrote:Welcome Tony, you'll certainly enjoy the adventure.

I did exactly what you want to do, buy your own plane and train it it. I started my initial training in a Remos at a flight school just north of Orlando when I lived there. Very soon after I bought my very own (used) SportCruiser. You mentioned buying a Czech Sport. :mrgreen: I finished all my training and took my checkride in my own plane. Very satisfying for sure. A lot can be said for owning your own plane.

LSA's are a lot of fun and a joy to fly and at the same time easy to maintain. If you are into "gadgets" there's no shortage of that either. I love flying a modern airplane with it's many safety features and equipment that lessen my workload as a pilot. There are many, many great LSA's out there and I must say that you have great taste in airplanes, the SportCruiser is the best. (did I just swat a hornets nest?) :mrgreen:

Don't let the idea that "Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby" deter you, maybe you are old and rich, I dont know. I'm neither and I love sport pilot and LSA. I'm usually one of the younger people at my local aviation gatherings. I know several "younger" LSA owners and pilots. Rich? Not even close. I dig through the couch cushions before I head to the airport so I can buy just a little more fuel for the day. :mrgreen:

Whatever you decide to do I will say you won't be disappointed with a sport pilot rating and a wonderful LSA.

Blue skies Tony and enjoy your adventure.


Not sure what is old or rich, I'm 48. I am blessed with a great job as an investment accountant. I grew up dirt poor so I know how to stretch a dollar. I'm saving for college for a kid because by tuition assistance standards if you save even a little bit of money for retirement you are rich. My home in ct is a nest egg that I will be cashing in as soon as I retire. CT is way to expensive to retire in and don't ever die here with any assets, lest the tax man cometh.
My land in NH is my retirement location. No income tax/ no sales tax and a couple of miles from 8B2 (look I'm talking "pilot" already) = Heaven.

BTW the sportcruiser looks the part, my buddy who designs jet engines for pratt & whitney says if it looks like a turd it probably is. The bristell is also super sexy but out of my budget.]]>
ShawnM wrote:Welcome Tony, you'll certainly enjoy the adventure.

I did exactly what you want to do, buy your own plane and train it it. I started my initial training in a Remos at a flight school just north of Orlando when I lived there. Very soon after I bought my very own (used) SportCruiser. You mentioned buying a Czech Sport. :mrgreen: I finished all my training and took my checkride in my own plane. Very satisfying for sure. A lot can be said for owning your own plane.

LSA's are a lot of fun and a joy to fly and at the same time easy to maintain. If you are into "gadgets" there's no shortage of that either. I love flying a modern airplane with it's many safety features and equipment that lessen my workload as a pilot. There are many, many great LSA's out there and I must say that you have great taste in airplanes, the SportCruiser is the best. (did I just swat a hornets nest?) :mrgreen:

Don't let the idea that "Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby" deter you, maybe you are old and rich, I dont know. I'm neither and I love sport pilot and LSA. I'm usually one of the younger people at my local aviation gatherings. I know several "younger" LSA owners and pilots. Rich? Not even close. I dig through the couch cushions before I head to the airport so I can buy just a little more fuel for the day. :mrgreen:

Whatever you decide to do I will say you won't be disappointed with a sport pilot rating and a wonderful LSA.

Blue skies Tony and enjoy your adventure.


Not sure what is old or rich, I'm 48. I am blessed with a great job as an investment accountant. I grew up dirt poor so I know how to stretch a dollar. I'm saving for college for a kid because by tuition assistance standards if you save even a little bit of money for retirement you are rich. My home in ct is a nest egg that I will be cashing in as soon as I retire. CT is way to expensive to retire in and don't ever die here with any assets, lest the tax man cometh.
My land in NH is my retirement location. No income tax/ no sales tax and a couple of miles from 8B2 (look I'm talking "pilot" already) = Heaven.

BTW the sportcruiser looks the part, my buddy who designs jet engines for pratt & whitney says if it looks like a turd it probably is. The bristell is also super sexy but out of my budget.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-11-21T21:03:43-05:00 2018-11-21T21:03:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53943#p53943
amster105 wrote:Hi Tony

I'm from CT as well. I used to rent from Danbury, but they no longer have an LSA for rent.

There is a Light Sport at Chester, CT, even though it doesn't say it on their website. I'm not sure how far that is from you but that could be one option.


AWESOME info!! I'm 20 minutes from Chester. I'm in Middlefield. 5 minutes from powder ridge or lyman orchards.]]>
amster105 wrote:Hi Tony

I'm from CT as well. I used to rent from Danbury, but they no longer have an LSA for rent.

There is a Light Sport at Chester, CT, even though it doesn't say it on their website. I'm not sure how far that is from you but that could be one option.


AWESOME info!! I'm 20 minutes from Chester. I'm in Middlefield. 5 minutes from powder ridge or lyman orchards.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-11-21T21:25:55-05:00 2018-11-21T21:25:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53945#p53945
ShawnM wrote:...
Don't let the idea that "Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby" deter you, maybe you are old and rich, I dont know. I'm neither and I love sport pilot and LSA. I'm usually one of the younger people at my local aviation gatherings. I know several "younger" LSA owners and pilots. Rich? Not even close. I dig through the couch cushions before I head to the airport so I can buy just a little more fuel for the day. :mrgreen:

Whatever you decide to do I will say you won't be disappointed with a sport pilot rating and a wonderful LSA.

Blue skies Tony and enjoy your adventure.


Well, some good news for you Shawn to go with this upcoming long weekend/holiday .. you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D]]>
ShawnM wrote:...
Don't let the idea that "Sport Pilot and LSA is, for the most part, a rich old man's hobby" deter you, maybe you are old and rich, I dont know. I'm neither and I love sport pilot and LSA. I'm usually one of the younger people at my local aviation gatherings. I know several "younger" LSA owners and pilots. Rich? Not even close. I dig through the couch cushions before I head to the airport so I can buy just a little more fuel for the day. :mrgreen:

Whatever you decide to do I will say you won't be disappointed with a sport pilot rating and a wonderful LSA.

Blue skies Tony and enjoy your adventure.


Well, some good news for you Shawn to go with this upcoming long weekend/holiday .. you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T21:30:41-05:00 2018-11-21T21:30:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53946#p53946
Warmi wrote: you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D


When I bought my first plane (a Beechcraft) about 40 years ago, one of my smart-ass relatives said "It must be nice to be rich."

Realizing that an airplane is not an asset, but rather a liability, I replied: "It was."]]>
Warmi wrote: you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D


When I bought my first plane (a Beechcraft) about 40 years ago, one of my smart-ass relatives said "It must be nice to be rich."

Realizing that an airplane is not an asset, but rather a liability, I replied: "It was."]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-21T21:36:58-05:00 2018-11-21T21:36:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53948#p53948
drseti wrote:
Warmi wrote: you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D


When I bought my first plane (a Beechcraft) about 40 years ago, one of my smart-ass relatives said "It must be nice to be rich."

Realizing that an airplane is not an asset, but rather a liability, I replied: "It was."


Exactly why I'm in no hurry to buy another one.]]>
drseti wrote:
Warmi wrote: you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D


When I bought my first plane (a Beechcraft) about 40 years ago, one of my smart-ass relatives said "It must be nice to be rich."

Realizing that an airplane is not an asset, but rather a liability, I replied: "It was."


Exactly why I'm in no hurry to buy another one.]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by rideandfly]]> 2018-11-22T08:58:33-05:00 2018-11-22T08:58:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53950#p53950
Atrosa wrote:Hello everyone. My name is Tony and I'm starting my journey in becoming a pilot. My goal is to get into a plane like a czech sport or something and putt around the northeast. I live in CT and have a vacation place in NH. My place in nh is close to twin mountain airport 8B2. I will be asking a bunch of newbie questions so please be patient with me.


Tony, Welcome!

Plenty of knowledgeable folks here that can answer questions. It will be a fun and rewarding journey for you!

Best Regards,]]>
Atrosa wrote:Hello everyone. My name is Tony and I'm starting my journey in becoming a pilot. My goal is to get into a plane like a czech sport or something and putt around the northeast. I live in CT and have a vacation place in NH. My place in nh is close to twin mountain airport 8B2. I will be asking a bunch of newbie questions so please be patient with me.


Tony, Welcome!

Plenty of knowledgeable folks here that can answer questions. It will be a fun and rewarding journey for you!

Best Regards,]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Hi from CT :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-22T18:54:58-05:00 2018-11-22T18:54:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5225&p=53952#p53952
Warmi wrote:Well, some good news for you Shawn to go with this upcoming long weekend/holiday .. you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D


What? I’m rich? Why didn’t you tell me this sooner? You obviously have not seen my bank statements. :mrgreen:

I know people who have bought old and tired aircraft for under $20k that were actually airworthy so you certainly don’t have to be rich to own a plane. :D]]>
Warmi wrote:Well, some good news for you Shawn to go with this upcoming long weekend/holiday .. you do own a damn plane so you are rich after all ... :D


What? I’m rich? Why didn’t you tell me this sooner? You obviously have not seen my bank statements. :mrgreen:

I know people who have bought old and tired aircraft for under $20k that were actually airworthy so you certainly don’t have to be rich to own a plane. :D]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Student Sport Pilot in New Mexico :: Reply by APS]]> 2018-11-23T12:58:39-05:00 2018-11-23T12:58:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5208&p=53955#p53955
Tony Stout here... I'm a new sport pilot as of September of this year.

I learned to fly at Double Eagle Airport in a Weight Shift Trike.
Now, I am also at Santa Fe doing some transition training into an airplane. I am flying the Tecnam Sierra P2002.

I didn't even know the Remos is available! I would love to fly a high wing airplane.

Who is your CFI? Mine is Jean Luc Pous -- a good guy, he makes me laugh.

Anyhow, it would be great to meet you at some point in the future. I know many trike pilots in ABQ but have not yet met a single light sport airplane pilot. I've actually been hoping to find someone (or a few someones), that would like to consider partial ownership on an airplane to bring the costs down and also be able to afford something of a higher quality than I would be able to purchase on my own. If you know anyone, let me know!

Best Wishes, Tony]]>

Tony Stout here... I'm a new sport pilot as of September of this year.

I learned to fly at Double Eagle Airport in a Weight Shift Trike.
Now, I am also at Santa Fe doing some transition training into an airplane. I am flying the Tecnam Sierra P2002.

I didn't even know the Remos is available! I would love to fly a high wing airplane.

Who is your CFI? Mine is Jean Luc Pous -- a good guy, he makes me laugh.

Anyhow, it would be great to meet you at some point in the future. I know many trike pilots in ABQ but have not yet met a single light sport airplane pilot. I've actually been hoping to find someone (or a few someones), that would like to consider partial ownership on an airplane to bring the costs down and also be able to afford something of a higher quality than I would be able to purchase on my own. If you know anyone, let me know!

Best Wishes, Tony]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Student Sport Pilot in New Mexico :: Reply by jpleonard2000]]> 2018-11-25T20:07:56-05:00 2018-11-25T20:07:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5208&p=53967#p53967
Cheers,

John]]>

Cheers,

John]]>
<![CDATA[Introduce Yourself! :: Re: Student Sport Pilot in New Mexico :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-25T20:42:09-05:00 2018-11-25T20:42:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5208&p=53968#p53968 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Want to own the Bally Bomber? :: Reply by Cub flyer]]> 2018-11-27T07:43:12-05:00 2018-11-27T07:43:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5186&p=53979#p53979
I wonder what he puts in the pilot logbook to log time. Experimental B-17? B-17 .035?

Now with the little Verner direct drive radials available I wonder how close they would be to fit the cowls. Even if the cylinder heads stuck out of the cowls it would look pretty good.]]>

I wonder what he puts in the pilot logbook to log time. Experimental B-17? B-17 .035?

Now with the little Verner direct drive radials available I wonder how close they would be to fit the cowls. Even if the cylinder heads stuck out of the cowls it would look pretty good.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Author FlyAgain]]> 2018-11-28T19:19:14-05:00 2018-11-28T19:19:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=53994#p53994
What's most confusing is the weight restriction for LSAs. It's not clear to me from a safety and risk perspective why flying cross country in a Cessna 172 or Piper Tomahawk VFR, daytime only and just one passenger is any more dangerous than doing it in a Czech Sport Cruiser? I assume the intent had to be restrictive for a reason. I can understand speed limits as high performance usually increases risk for new aviators. As far as the medical issue is concerned the stats don't bear it out...I looked through a ton LSA accident reports and didn't see any attributed to a medical condition that the sacrosanct 3rd Class Medical would have prevented. Conversely there are numerous examples of medical contributing to accidents with med certified fliers...even with Class 1's.

Cost seems a significant barrier to entry based on the weight restriction. New LSAs well equipped are $160-$200K...beyond the reach of the average Joe and most folks aren't going to have the wherewithal, facilities, time or skill set to build kits or do experimentals. It seems there are a lot of good LSA manufacturers making very limited numbers of airplanes. As such the used market is thin. Training isn't readily available at many places nor are the airplanes available to rent. Buying an LSA could put a low time pilot as a lone wolf at his/her airport without much in the way of a local network of fellow LSA fliers or CFIs for building experience safely. In contrast, an old jalopy Cherokee could be found and completely restored for half the price (maybe less) albeit operating costs may be higher and you can't swing a dead cat where I live without hitting an old Piper or Cessna pilot.

Don't get me wrong, not complaining, I'm thankful the Sport rating exists and gives some of us older guys some great options. Just curious the thought process that went into it. Perhaps LSA is still in its infancy and will continue to grow with time.]]>

What's most confusing is the weight restriction for LSAs. It's not clear to me from a safety and risk perspective why flying cross country in a Cessna 172 or Piper Tomahawk VFR, daytime only and just one passenger is any more dangerous than doing it in a Czech Sport Cruiser? I assume the intent had to be restrictive for a reason. I can understand speed limits as high performance usually increases risk for new aviators. As far as the medical issue is concerned the stats don't bear it out...I looked through a ton LSA accident reports and didn't see any attributed to a medical condition that the sacrosanct 3rd Class Medical would have prevented. Conversely there are numerous examples of medical contributing to accidents with med certified fliers...even with Class 1's.

Cost seems a significant barrier to entry based on the weight restriction. New LSAs well equipped are $160-$200K...beyond the reach of the average Joe and most folks aren't going to have the wherewithal, facilities, time or skill set to build kits or do experimentals. It seems there are a lot of good LSA manufacturers making very limited numbers of airplanes. As such the used market is thin. Training isn't readily available at many places nor are the airplanes available to rent. Buying an LSA could put a low time pilot as a lone wolf at his/her airport without much in the way of a local network of fellow LSA fliers or CFIs for building experience safely. In contrast, an old jalopy Cherokee could be found and completely restored for half the price (maybe less) albeit operating costs may be higher and you can't swing a dead cat where I live without hitting an old Piper or Cessna pilot.

Don't get me wrong, not complaining, I'm thankful the Sport rating exists and gives some of us older guys some great options. Just curious the thought process that went into it. Perhaps LSA is still in its infancy and will continue to grow with time.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by CharlieTango]]> 2018-11-28T19:35:19-05:00 2018-11-28T19:35:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=53995#p53995 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-28T19:36:48-05:00 2018-11-28T19:54:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=53996#p53996
Check around all the local airports and see if any have an LSA available for rent. If not, you might need to purchase something if you really want to fly. A really nice used LSA can be had for around $50,000 to $60,000. There are a number of older aircraft that qualify as LSA such as J3, Taylorcraft, Champ, etc. Some of those can be had from around $20,000 to $30,000.

Also, you will NOT be a Sport Pilot. You are and always will be a Private Pilot. If flying without an FAA medical or Basic Med, you will be a Private Pilot operating with Sport Pilot privileges and limitations. There is nothing so unique about LSA that needs a network of fellow pilots. It's just another airplane. I got 55 hours in a J3 53 years ago as a new Private Pilot working toward a Commercial. I had no idea I was flying an LSA.]]>

Check around all the local airports and see if any have an LSA available for rent. If not, you might need to purchase something if you really want to fly. A really nice used LSA can be had for around $50,000 to $60,000. There are a number of older aircraft that qualify as LSA such as J3, Taylorcraft, Champ, etc. Some of those can be had from around $20,000 to $30,000.

Also, you will NOT be a Sport Pilot. You are and always will be a Private Pilot. If flying without an FAA medical or Basic Med, you will be a Private Pilot operating with Sport Pilot privileges and limitations. There is nothing so unique about LSA that needs a network of fellow pilots. It's just another airplane. I got 55 hours in a J3 53 years ago as a new Private Pilot working toward a Commercial. I had no idea I was flying an LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-28T19:42:07-05:00 2018-11-28T19:46:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=53997#p53997
https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/regulatory-brief-sport-pilot-light-sport-aircraft-final-rule

Asking us to interpret WHY the FAA did something is just ludicrous, I’ll bet they don’t even know. :mrgreen:

I personally think that there are many, many planes on the used market and it’s far from “thin” as you say. The cost of a new LSA is certainly a barrier for many, they’ve just gotten too expensive. I bought my SportCruiser used in 2013 for a song and couldn’t be happier with it.]]>

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/regulatory-brief-sport-pilot-light-sport-aircraft-final-rule

Asking us to interpret WHY the FAA did something is just ludicrous, I’ll bet they don’t even know. :mrgreen:

I personally think that there are many, many planes on the used market and it’s far from “thin” as you say. The cost of a new LSA is certainly a barrier for many, they’ve just gotten too expensive. I bought my SportCruiser used in 2013 for a song and couldn’t be happier with it.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-28T19:44:26-05:00 2018-11-28T19:44:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=53998#p53998
Safety in an airplane is directly related to energy. The more energy an object has when it hits something the more damage it is going to do, to both the occupants and objects on the ground. Take a look at this safety review of light sport aircraft, and you will notice that the aircraft with the lowest energy potential has the lowest fatality rate. http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/ ... 228-1.html

For cost the $160,000 plus LSA's are far from what was envisioned when the rule went into effect. Even the most complex LSA when the rule was put in place have become more complex. Also when the rule went into effect the exchange rate was so that you only paid $75,000 for a 100,000 EURO for a European built airplane. Right now that same 100,000 EURO airplane will cost $114,000, and at one point it was as high as $163,000.
In 2007 I bought my first CT, and it cost $100,000. I replaced it 2 years later and it cost $130,000. Today it would be $170,000. I was using it in a business, and also as a dealer demo, but the price has pushed me out of the new airplane market, at least for a airplane like the CT. You can still buy a new Rotax powered SLSA for around $80,000, but it is not going to be a fancy 120kt machine.]]>

Safety in an airplane is directly related to energy. The more energy an object has when it hits something the more damage it is going to do, to both the occupants and objects on the ground. Take a look at this safety review of light sport aircraft, and you will notice that the aircraft with the lowest energy potential has the lowest fatality rate. http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/ ... 228-1.html

For cost the $160,000 plus LSA's are far from what was envisioned when the rule went into effect. Even the most complex LSA when the rule was put in place have become more complex. Also when the rule went into effect the exchange rate was so that you only paid $75,000 for a 100,000 EURO for a European built airplane. Right now that same 100,000 EURO airplane will cost $114,000, and at one point it was as high as $163,000.
In 2007 I bought my first CT, and it cost $100,000. I replaced it 2 years later and it cost $130,000. Today it would be $170,000. I was using it in a business, and also as a dealer demo, but the price has pushed me out of the new airplane market, at least for a airplane like the CT. You can still buy a new Rotax powered SLSA for around $80,000, but it is not going to be a fancy 120kt machine.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-28T19:49:20-05:00 2018-11-28T19:49:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=53999#p53999 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-28T21:08:16-05:00 2018-11-28T21:08:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54000#p54000 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-28T23:11:22-05:00 2018-11-28T23:11:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54001#p54001
3Dreaming wrote:Safety in an airplane is directly related to energy. The more energy an object has when it hits something the more damage it is going to do, to both the occupants and objects on the ground.


Tom is entirely correct here. The numbers (which many believe are arbitrary) were actually determined with kinetic energy in mind. The most common type of LSA accident involves running off the left side of the runway during takeoff of landing. These are almost always non- injury accidents, in which the occupants simply walk away from the crumpled aircraft. That's because at maximum gross weight of 1320# and a stall speed of 45 Kt calibrated (the speed near which flare or rotation occur), there's only 160 kiloJoules of energy to dissipate - not enough to inflict serious injury. Heavier and faster may be safer under certain circumstances, but not when you hit something.

Now, why is it always the left side of the runway? Simple physics, and a function of the direction the prop spins. The rotating mass of the engine innards and prop is a pretty effective gyroscope. Displace it upward in the vertical plane during rotation or flare, and the plane will lurch left. Not a big deal in a heavy aircraft with lots of inertia, but it can be pretty dramatic in an LSA (which is why transition training is so important).]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Safety in an airplane is directly related to energy. The more energy an object has when it hits something the more damage it is going to do, to both the occupants and objects on the ground.


Tom is entirely correct here. The numbers (which many believe are arbitrary) were actually determined with kinetic energy in mind. The most common type of LSA accident involves running off the left side of the runway during takeoff of landing. These are almost always non- injury accidents, in which the occupants simply walk away from the crumpled aircraft. That's because at maximum gross weight of 1320# and a stall speed of 45 Kt calibrated (the speed near which flare or rotation occur), there's only 160 kiloJoules of energy to dissipate - not enough to inflict serious injury. Heavier and faster may be safer under certain circumstances, but not when you hit something.

Now, why is it always the left side of the runway? Simple physics, and a function of the direction the prop spins. The rotating mass of the engine innards and prop is a pretty effective gyroscope. Displace it upward in the vertical plane during rotation or flare, and the plane will lurch left. Not a big deal in a heavy aircraft with lots of inertia, but it can be pretty dramatic in an LSA (which is why transition training is so important).]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-28T23:20:41-05:00 2018-11-28T23:20:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54002#p54002
CharlieTango wrote:The Light Sport rule was orignally an attempt to bring the many Part 103 'fat ultralight' 2-seat trainers under some jurisdiction.


That's right. FAA had to do something to rein in all those unlicensed scofflaws flying unregistered death traps under Part 103! ;)]]>
CharlieTango wrote:The Light Sport rule was orignally an attempt to bring the many Part 103 'fat ultralight' 2-seat trainers under some jurisdiction.


That's right. FAA had to do something to rein in all those unlicensed scofflaws flying unregistered death traps under Part 103! ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-28T23:25:43-05:00 2018-11-28T23:25:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54003#p54003
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Safety in an airplane is directly related to energy. The more energy an object has when it hits something the more damage it is going to do, to both the occupants and objects on the ground.


Tom is entirely correct here. The numbers (which many believe are arbitrary) were actually determined with kinetic energy in mind. The most common type of LSA accident involves running off the left side of the runway during takeoff of landing. These are almost always non- injury accidents, in which the occupants simply walk away from the crumpled aircraft. That's because at maximum gross weight of 1320# and a stall speed of 45 Kt calibrated (the speed near which flare or rotation occur), there's only 160 kiloJoules of energy to dissipate - not enough to inflict serious injury. Heavier and faster may be safer under certain circumstances, but not when you hit something.

Now, why is it always the left side of the runway? Simple physics, and a function of the direction the prop spins. The rotating mass of the engine innards and prop is a pretty effective gyroscope. Displace it upward in the vertical plane during rotation or flare, and the plane will lurch left. Not a big deal in a heavy aircraft with lots of inertia, but it can be pretty dramatic in an LSA (which is why transition training is so important).


So, if you think you're going to crash, jump out of the airplane to reduce your kinetic energy. :lol:]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Safety in an airplane is directly related to energy. The more energy an object has when it hits something the more damage it is going to do, to both the occupants and objects on the ground.


Tom is entirely correct here. The numbers (which many believe are arbitrary) were actually determined with kinetic energy in mind. The most common type of LSA accident involves running off the left side of the runway during takeoff of landing. These are almost always non- injury accidents, in which the occupants simply walk away from the crumpled aircraft. That's because at maximum gross weight of 1320# and a stall speed of 45 Kt calibrated (the speed near which flare or rotation occur), there's only 160 kiloJoules of energy to dissipate - not enough to inflict serious injury. Heavier and faster may be safer under certain circumstances, but not when you hit something.

Now, why is it always the left side of the runway? Simple physics, and a function of the direction the prop spins. The rotating mass of the engine innards and prop is a pretty effective gyroscope. Displace it upward in the vertical plane during rotation or flare, and the plane will lurch left. Not a big deal in a heavy aircraft with lots of inertia, but it can be pretty dramatic in an LSA (which is why transition training is so important).


So, if you think you're going to crash, jump out of the airplane to reduce your kinetic energy. :lol:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-28T23:30:31-05:00 2018-11-28T23:30:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54004#p54004
TimTaylor wrote:So, if you think you're going to crash, jump out of the airplane to reduce your kinetic energy. :lol:


Not a bad idea - especially if you're wearing a parachute.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:So, if you think you're going to crash, jump out of the airplane to reduce your kinetic energy. :lol:


Not a bad idea - especially if you're wearing a parachute.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-29T06:26:27-05:00 2018-11-29T06:26:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54006#p54006
drseti wrote:
Now, why is it always the left side of the runway? Simple physics, and a function of the direction the prop spins. The rotating mass of the engine innards and prop is a pretty effective gyroscope. Displace it upward in the vertical plane during rotation or flare, and the plane will lurch left. Not a big deal in a heavy aircraft with lots of inertia, but it can be pretty dramatic in an LSA (which is why transition training is so important).


A large percentage of Cirrus takeoff and landing accidents result in the proverbial “smoking hole”, virtually always on the left side of the runway. Which, due to the much larger inertia involved often lead to serious injury or death. I think the main reason is the combination of left roll and yaw can elicit a reflexive response - pull the yoke or stick to the right and back to stop it. What’s clearly lacking in that response is the right rudder necessary to stop the left yaw, sometimes combined with forward stick to decrease the angle of attack. To survive, instructors have to be very quick to recognize the danger and take prompt corrective action.

One quibble. Gyroscopic precession causes a force applied to a rotating mass to be felt 90°in the direction of rotation. This causes a very dramatic left yaw as you raise the tail of a powerful tailwheel aircraft. Lifting the tail is like pushing on the top of the rotating propeller disc, and the resultant force due to precession is on the right side of that disc, 90° in the direction - clockwise - of that disc, causing the left yaw.

But raising the nose of a plane is like pushing on the bottom of the rotating disc. Wouldn’t the resultant precessional force then be on the left side of the disc, causing a slight right yaw?

My take is that in a low-powered aircraft, whatever slight right yaw that might be imparted by precession is dwarfed by spiraling slipstream, p-factor and torque, which all combine to cause the left yaw and roll we observe.

Stipulated: the professor’s knowledge of physics and his engineering prowess dwarf mine. So I always want to tread lightly when making a correction.

Let the games begin!]]>
drseti wrote:
Now, why is it always the left side of the runway? Simple physics, and a function of the direction the prop spins. The rotating mass of the engine innards and prop is a pretty effective gyroscope. Displace it upward in the vertical plane during rotation or flare, and the plane will lurch left. Not a big deal in a heavy aircraft with lots of inertia, but it can be pretty dramatic in an LSA (which is why transition training is so important).


A large percentage of Cirrus takeoff and landing accidents result in the proverbial “smoking hole”, virtually always on the left side of the runway. Which, due to the much larger inertia involved often lead to serious injury or death. I think the main reason is the combination of left roll and yaw can elicit a reflexive response - pull the yoke or stick to the right and back to stop it. What’s clearly lacking in that response is the right rudder necessary to stop the left yaw, sometimes combined with forward stick to decrease the angle of attack. To survive, instructors have to be very quick to recognize the danger and take prompt corrective action.

One quibble. Gyroscopic precession causes a force applied to a rotating mass to be felt 90°in the direction of rotation. This causes a very dramatic left yaw as you raise the tail of a powerful tailwheel aircraft. Lifting the tail is like pushing on the top of the rotating propeller disc, and the resultant force due to precession is on the right side of that disc, 90° in the direction - clockwise - of that disc, causing the left yaw.

But raising the nose of a plane is like pushing on the bottom of the rotating disc. Wouldn’t the resultant precessional force then be on the left side of the disc, causing a slight right yaw?

My take is that in a low-powered aircraft, whatever slight right yaw that might be imparted by precession is dwarfed by spiraling slipstream, p-factor and torque, which all combine to cause the left yaw and roll we observe.

Stipulated: the professor’s knowledge of physics and his engineering prowess dwarf mine. So I always want to tread lightly when making a correction.

Let the games begin!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-29T08:24:53-05:00 2018-11-29T08:24:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54007#p54007 opposite direction to the prop. The composite props are very light, so they contribute p-factor and slipstream, but practically no mass-induced precession. That all comes from the engine innards, which adds additional left-turning tendency right at rotation or flare.

In the Cirrus, that massive metal prop is moving the same direction as the crankshaft and flywheel, which just compounds the problem. I noticed in the SR22 I flew recently, I needed lots of rudder in the flare.

And in Eddie's pusher-prop Sky Arrow, with its mid-mounted engine, all bets are off!]]>
opposite direction to the prop. The composite props are very light, so they contribute p-factor and slipstream, but practically no mass-induced precession. That all comes from the engine innards, which adds additional left-turning tendency right at rotation or flare.

In the Cirrus, that massive metal prop is moving the same direction as the crankshaft and flywheel, which just compounds the problem. I noticed in the SR22 I flew recently, I needed lots of rudder in the flare.

And in Eddie's pusher-prop Sky Arrow, with its mid-mounted engine, all bets are off!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-29T10:18:52-05:00 2018-11-29T10:18:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54009#p54009
drseti wrote:
And in Eddie's pusher-prop Sky Arrow, with its mid-mounted engine, all bets are off!


I had to reason through that if anything, p-factor and spiralling slipstream would work opposite to a "tractor". P-factor here:

Image

In practice, with the thrust line so close to the CG and the distance between the prop and the horizontal stabilizer so short I really don't notice any right-turning-tendecy regardless.]]>

drseti wrote:
And in Eddie's pusher-prop Sky Arrow, with its mid-mounted engine, all bets are off!


I had to reason through that if anything, p-factor and spiralling slipstream would work opposite to a "tractor". P-factor here:

Image

In practice, with the thrust line so close to the CG and the distance between the prop and the horizontal stabilizer so short I really don't notice any right-turning-tendecy regardless.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by proemer]]> 2018-11-30T11:52:43-05:00 2018-11-30T11:52:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54038#p54038
The net result is there is little to no "torque/pfactor", nor any other notable trim changes in pitch or yaw in most any flight condition. It took me 100 hours to finally decide there is a slight pitch up going from 10 to 20 degrees of flap... and that's about the only trim change I notice.

This makes for a very pleasant flying airplane.

Pete]]>

The net result is there is little to no "torque/pfactor", nor any other notable trim changes in pitch or yaw in most any flight condition. It took me 100 hours to finally decide there is a slight pitch up going from 10 to 20 degrees of flap... and that's about the only trim change I notice.

This makes for a very pleasant flying airplane.

Pete]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: What was the Genesis for Sport and LSA? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-30T13:06:39-05:00 2018-11-30T13:06:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5232&p=54044#p54044
proemer wrote:I believe in the Sky Arrow the engine/prop is mounted with a small offset in both yaw and pitch.


I'm pretty sure all planes have that, the amount of which is appropriate for a normal cruise regime. Slower or faster than that or at high power settings, said offset may be too much or too little. The vertical stabilizer can be offset for the same reason. Something like this:

Image

Look closely at a Citabria or a Decathalon - or a Champ, I suspect - and the offset is really obvious.


This makes for a very pleasant flying airplane.


We're both spoiled - its a great little plane!]]>
proemer wrote:I believe in the Sky Arrow the engine/prop is mounted with a small offset in both yaw and pitch.


I'm pretty sure all planes have that, the amount of which is appropriate for a normal cruise regime. Slower or faster than that or at high power settings, said offset may be too much or too little. The vertical stabilizer can be offset for the same reason. Something like this:

Image

Look closely at a Citabria or a Decathalon - or a Champ, I suspect - and the offset is really obvious.


This makes for a very pleasant flying airplane.


We're both spoiled - its a great little plane!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: An "interesting" trip for a $100 Panini :: Author rcpilot]]> 2018-11-30T19:27:16-05:00 2018-11-30T19:27:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5235&p=54055#p54055 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: An "interesting" trip for a $100 Panini :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-01T09:21:13-05:00 2018-12-01T09:21:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5235&p=54058#p54058 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Stump the Chump :: Author Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-01T11:32:44-05:00 2018-12-01T11:32:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54059#p54059

What I am referring to are the tick marks around the BEARCE (7M3) airport west of Hot Springs.


Image1.jpg


My thinking is that they are bluffs/cliffs but just don't really know.

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Image1.jpg (72.19 KiB)


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What I am referring to are the tick marks around the BEARCE (7M3) airport west of Hot Springs.


Image1.jpg


My thinking is that they are bluffs/cliffs but just don't really know.

Attachments



Image1.jpg (72.19 KiB)


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<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-01T13:00:01-05:00 2018-12-01T13:00:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54060#p54060
I'm headed over shortly - I'll let you know what I find.]]>

I'm headed over shortly - I'll let you know what I find.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-01T13:21:16-05:00 2018-12-01T13:21:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54061#p54061 https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... 596fcb9daa
:lol:]]>
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2 ... 596fcb9daa
:lol:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-01T14:38:05-05:00 2018-12-01T14:38:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54063#p54063 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-01T15:03:28-05:00 2018-12-01T15:03:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54064#p54064
Image

Depressions?

Image

The "Relief" page:

Image]]>

Image

Depressions?

Image

The "Relief" page:

Image]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-01T17:02:19-05:00 2018-12-01T17:02:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54065#p54065
3Dreaming wrote:If you are talking about the circle segment that your green dot is on, then that is an exclusion for airspace in the MOA 1500 foot and below for the airport.


No, that's actually Class E to the surface. Has nothing to do with MOA which that airport is not in. It's for IFR protection from VFR traffic in low weather conditions. They don't want any VFR aircraft making takeoffs and landings with Class G minimums (1 mile, clear of clouds).

PS: The green dot is iFly GPS depiction for VFR weather.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:If you are talking about the circle segment that your green dot is on, then that is an exclusion for airspace in the MOA 1500 foot and below for the airport.


No, that's actually Class E to the surface. Has nothing to do with MOA which that airport is not in. It's for IFR protection from VFR traffic in low weather conditions. They don't want any VFR aircraft making takeoffs and landings with Class G minimums (1 mile, clear of clouds).

PS: The green dot is iFly GPS depiction for VFR weather.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-01T18:48:23-05:00 2018-12-01T18:48:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54066#p54066
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:If you are talking about the circle segment that your green dot is on, then that is an exclusion for airspace in the MOA 1500 foot and below for the airport.


No, that's actually Class E to the surface. Has nothing to do with MOA which that airport is not in. It's for IFR protection from VFR traffic in low weather conditions. They don't want any VFR aircraft making takeoffs and landings with Class G minimums (1 mile, clear of clouds).

PS: The green dot is iFly GPS depiction for VFR weather.


EDIT: Yes, you are correct. We're looking at two different airports and two different green dots.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:If you are talking about the circle segment that your green dot is on, then that is an exclusion for airspace in the MOA 1500 foot and below for the airport.


No, that's actually Class E to the surface. Has nothing to do with MOA which that airport is not in. It's for IFR protection from VFR traffic in low weather conditions. They don't want any VFR aircraft making takeoffs and landings with Class G minimums (1 mile, clear of clouds).

PS: The green dot is iFly GPS depiction for VFR weather.


EDIT: Yes, you are correct. We're looking at two different airports and two different green dots.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-02T10:22:38-05:00 2018-12-02T10:22:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54067#p54067
I know the depression symbol, tick marks on the inside, toward the lower ground. But these are on the outside and the ground enclosed is higher plus I do not recall ever seeing that symbol used before.]]>

I know the depression symbol, tick marks on the inside, toward the lower ground. But these are on the outside and the ground enclosed is higher plus I do not recall ever seeing that symbol used before.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-12-02T10:27:49-05:00 2018-12-02T10:27:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54068#p54068 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-02T10:58:14-05:00 2018-12-02T10:58:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54069#p54069 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-02T11:05:59-05:00 2018-12-02T11:05:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54070#p54070
Another clue, one is named Mount Ida.]]>

Another clue, one is named Mount Ida.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Stump the Chump :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-02T11:56:20-05:00 2018-12-02T11:56:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5237&p=54071#p54071
TimTaylor wrote:Another clue, one is named Mount Ida.


Ida know about that.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Another clue, one is named Mount Ida.


Ida know about that.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-06T21:58:04-05:00 2018-12-06T21:58:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=54146#p54146 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-07T10:39:35-05:00 2018-12-07T10:39:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=54152#p54152
Don't know If my flying is done. Started Chemo yesterday, second lung cancer treatment in 10 years. Agent Orange, the gift that just keeps on giving :|]]>

Don't know If my flying is done. Started Chemo yesterday, second lung cancer treatment in 10 years. Agent Orange, the gift that just keeps on giving :|]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Hanging Up My Wings :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-07T12:37:30-05:00 2018-12-07T12:37:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4997&p=54153#p54153
The lead singer in my band died two years ago from agent orange induced Alzheimer's. He was only 69.]]>

The lead singer in my band died two years ago from agent orange induced Alzheimer's. He was only 69.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Weather apps for Android :: Author HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-11T11:35:53-05:00 2018-12-11T11:35:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5241&p=54187#p54187 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Weather apps for Android :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-11T12:53:10-05:00 2018-12-11T12:53:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5241&p=54191#p54191 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Author foresterpoole]]> 2018-12-07T15:45:56-05:00 2018-12-07T15:45:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54154#p54154 So after 45 minutes of a 2 hour scheduled block I considered my options:
1. I could go home disappointed with no flight time for the week,
2. Take the 172 up and do some pattern work for a few minutes because in less than an hour someone had it checked out,
3. No one had the Tecnam P92 checked out for the next 2 hours

I opted for #3. Although I had done most of my private certificate flight training in the Tecnam, I had not flown it in over a year according to my logbook. Since the instructor was already booked with me I decided to get a yearly check-out and make the best out of a bad situation. I have to say it was a blast! After the fast paced world of the retract and it's learning curve it was simply bliss to just enjoy flying instead of thinking 15 minutes ahead, pushing all the control levers and watching all those gauges. Did basic airwork and after 30 minutes and 3 touch and goes I was back up to speed without any drama. I have to say this has made me think about my flying/rental habits. 85% of the time I fly alone locally, the other portions I am either getting instruction (complex right now, probably instrument rating come 2019), or flying with the Civil Air Patrol. I seldom fill the other seats, and I basically dismissed the little Light Sport sitting on the ramp in favor of the '78 C172. I have to say in retrospect that was a mistake! I was burning through money and fuel and really missing out on the one thing I used to enjoy: just flying. Well enough of my introspective, have a great weekend everyone!]]>
So after 45 minutes of a 2 hour scheduled block I considered my options:
1. I could go home disappointed with no flight time for the week,
2. Take the 172 up and do some pattern work for a few minutes because in less than an hour someone had it checked out,
3. No one had the Tecnam P92 checked out for the next 2 hours

I opted for #3. Although I had done most of my private certificate flight training in the Tecnam, I had not flown it in over a year according to my logbook. Since the instructor was already booked with me I decided to get a yearly check-out and make the best out of a bad situation. I have to say it was a blast! After the fast paced world of the retract and it's learning curve it was simply bliss to just enjoy flying instead of thinking 15 minutes ahead, pushing all the control levers and watching all those gauges. Did basic airwork and after 30 minutes and 3 touch and goes I was back up to speed without any drama. I have to say this has made me think about my flying/rental habits. 85% of the time I fly alone locally, the other portions I am either getting instruction (complex right now, probably instrument rating come 2019), or flying with the Civil Air Patrol. I seldom fill the other seats, and I basically dismissed the little Light Sport sitting on the ramp in favor of the '78 C172. I have to say in retrospect that was a mistake! I was burning through money and fuel and really missing out on the one thing I used to enjoy: just flying. Well enough of my introspective, have a great weekend everyone!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-07T16:34:11-05:00 2018-12-07T16:34:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54155#p54155
Welcome back to LSA. If I was you, I would fly the airplane best suited for the day's mission when available. Sometimes, the temptation is to fly the largest, fastest, best equipped aircraft for which you are qualified. When I first got my multi-engine rating, all I wanted to fly was the Seminole. I got over that after a while.]]>

Welcome back to LSA. If I was you, I would fly the airplane best suited for the day's mission when available. Sometimes, the temptation is to fly the largest, fastest, best equipped aircraft for which you are qualified. When I first got my multi-engine rating, all I wanted to fly was the Seminole. I got over that after a while.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-12-07T20:43:47-05:00 2018-12-07T20:43:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54156#p54156 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-12-08T08:00:38-05:00 2018-12-08T08:00:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54158#p54158 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-08T10:55:59-05:00 2018-12-08T10:55:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54159#p54159
In May, 2017 I did BasicMed and can now fly bigger airplanes, but the Zodiac is everything I want in an airplane at this stage of my life. It's fast enough, tons of fun, and I can share the joy of flight with friends.]]>

In May, 2017 I did BasicMed and can now fly bigger airplanes, but the Zodiac is everything I want in an airplane at this stage of my life. It's fast enough, tons of fun, and I can share the joy of flight with friends.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-08T13:32:27-05:00 2018-12-08T13:32:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54160#p54160
So, IMHO, until/unless you purchase your own airplane, enjoy the increased flexibility you have with a Private and Medical.]]>

So, IMHO, until/unless you purchase your own airplane, enjoy the increased flexibility you have with a Private and Medical.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-08T21:18:02-05:00 2018-12-08T21:18:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54164#p54164
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..


Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.]]>
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..


Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-08T21:57:51-05:00 2018-12-08T21:57:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54165#p54165
FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..


Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.

Might be a good reason not to purchase an E-LSA.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..


Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.

Might be a good reason not to purchase an E-LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-08T22:47:35-05:00 2018-12-08T22:47:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54166#p54166
TimTaylor wrote:Might be a good reason not to purchase an E-LSA.


Or might not be.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Might be a good reason not to purchase an E-LSA.


Or might not be.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-08T23:00:42-05:00 2018-12-08T23:00:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54167#p54167 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-08T23:52:08-05:00 2018-12-08T23:52:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54168#p54168
TimTaylor wrote:So, how to you evaluate that? I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

That is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:So, how to you evaluate that? I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

That is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-08T23:55:59-05:00 2018-12-08T23:55:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54169#p54169
Wm.Ince wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:So, how to you evaluate that? I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

That is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection.


The purpose of a pre-purchase inspection is to ascertain the condition of the airplane you plan to purchase. If the previous owner did his own maintenance and did not know what he was doing, finding that out would MOST CERTAINLY be a purpose of the pre-purchase inspection. You could be buying an unsafe aircraft with all kinds of discrepancies. What the hell?

One look at the logbooks might be enough to tell a prospective buyer that they are in such a mess you wouldn't touch the aircraft.

Bill, do you ever contribute anything to this site? Seems like all you do is sit back and take pot shots but never contribute anything useful toward the conversation taking place.]]>
Wm.Ince wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:So, how to you evaluate that? I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

That is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection.


The purpose of a pre-purchase inspection is to ascertain the condition of the airplane you plan to purchase. If the previous owner did his own maintenance and did not know what he was doing, finding that out would MOST CERTAINLY be a purpose of the pre-purchase inspection. You could be buying an unsafe aircraft with all kinds of discrepancies. What the hell?

One look at the logbooks might be enough to tell a prospective buyer that they are in such a mess you wouldn't touch the aircraft.

Bill, do you ever contribute anything to this site? Seems like all you do is sit back and take pot shots but never contribute anything useful toward the conversation taking place.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-09T00:20:53-05:00 2018-12-09T00:20:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54170#p54170
TimTaylor wrote:
Wm.Ince wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:So, how to you evaluate that? I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

That is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection.

The purpose of a pre-purchase inspection is to ascertain the condition of the airplane you plan to purchase.

Thank you for correcting yourself.

TimTaylor wrote:If the previous owner did his own maintenance and did not know what he was doing, finding that out would MOST CERTAINLY be a purpose of the pre-purchase inspection. You could be buying an unsafe aircraft with all kinds of discrepancies. What the hell?

That is presumptuous.
What makes you think that an ELSA owner does his/her own maintenance?
What would be the best indicator of whether good maintenance was done to an ELSA?]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Wm.Ince wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:So, how to you evaluate that? I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

That is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection.

The purpose of a pre-purchase inspection is to ascertain the condition of the airplane you plan to purchase.

Thank you for correcting yourself.

TimTaylor wrote:If the previous owner did his own maintenance and did not know what he was doing, finding that out would MOST CERTAINLY be a purpose of the pre-purchase inspection. You could be buying an unsafe aircraft with all kinds of discrepancies. What the hell?

That is presumptuous.
What makes you think that an ELSA owner does his/her own maintenance?
What would be the best indicator of whether good maintenance was done to an ELSA?]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-09T00:27:35-05:00 2018-12-09T00:27:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54171#p54171 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-09T00:45:56-05:00 2018-12-09T00:45:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54172#p54172
TimTaylor wrote:Bill, read a few of the previous post is this thread and try to follow along. Maybe you will get it, but I doubt it.

And . . . no answers to the questions?
I figured as much.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Bill, read a few of the previous post is this thread and try to follow along. Maybe you will get it, but I doubt it.

And . . . no answers to the questions?
I figured as much.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-09T00:54:19-05:00 2018-12-09T00:54:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54173#p54173 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-09T01:53:29-05:00 2018-12-09T01:53:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54174#p54174
TimTaylor wrote:My point was that a person might want to think twice about the purchase of an E-LSA vs an S-LSA because you don't know how well it may have been maintained by someone with little or no training or experience.

Concur and understand that. I used to think that way, but have changed my position somewhat.
TimTaylor wrote:I questioned how you could evaluate. It's a valid point. While I would not hesitate to buy a E-LSA from FastEddie, I would not be as comfortable buying an E-LSA from someone I didn't know. If you don't agree, fine.

That’s better. And yes . . . it is a valid point.

Okay, here’s how I would evaluate.

If I were in the market for an ELSA, or for that matter, any light airplane, there are 2 things which would determine the maintenance status of the aircraft.

1) Detailed historical records; i.e. past/current equipment lists, current weight and balance, MRA’s/LOA’s, current aircraft/engine manuals, compliance with safety diectives (alerts, bulletins, instructions), logbook entries and completed annual condition/100 hour inspection checklists for airframe and engine. If the owner has kept good records on the aircraft and seems very knowledgable, all the better. If the owner cannot produce those records, that’s a deal breaker. HE MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE MECHANIC. Just because he owns an ELSA, that doesn’t mean he maintains it (or does the maintenance on it). He may continue to have professionals do that and the airplane may be in great condition. Some owners do that. The whole point here is, records say a lot about how well the aircraft has been taken care of. Fact is, just because it’s an SLSA, that doesn’t mean it has been cared for any better than most ELSA’s. Again . . . check the records.

2) A thorough, physical inspection of the airplane, to include all its major components, by an experienced and competent (professional) mechanic/surveyor, who is very familiar with the type and model.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:My point was that a person might want to think twice about the purchase of an E-LSA vs an S-LSA because you don't know how well it may have been maintained by someone with little or no training or experience.

Concur and understand that. I used to think that way, but have changed my position somewhat.
TimTaylor wrote:I questioned how you could evaluate. It's a valid point. While I would not hesitate to buy a E-LSA from FastEddie, I would not be as comfortable buying an E-LSA from someone I didn't know. If you don't agree, fine.

That’s better. And yes . . . it is a valid point.

Okay, here’s how I would evaluate.

If I were in the market for an ELSA, or for that matter, any light airplane, there are 2 things which would determine the maintenance status of the aircraft.

1) Detailed historical records; i.e. past/current equipment lists, current weight and balance, MRA’s/LOA’s, current aircraft/engine manuals, compliance with safety diectives (alerts, bulletins, instructions), logbook entries and completed annual condition/100 hour inspection checklists for airframe and engine. If the owner has kept good records on the aircraft and seems very knowledgable, all the better. If the owner cannot produce those records, that’s a deal breaker. HE MAY OR MAY NOT BE THE MECHANIC. Just because he owns an ELSA, that doesn’t mean he maintains it (or does the maintenance on it). He may continue to have professionals do that and the airplane may be in great condition. Some owners do that. The whole point here is, records say a lot about how well the aircraft has been taken care of. Fact is, just because it’s an SLSA, that doesn’t mean it has been cared for any better than most ELSA’s. Again . . . check the records.

2) A thorough, physical inspection of the airplane, to include all its major components, by an experienced and competent (professional) mechanic/surveyor, who is very familiar with the type and model.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-09T08:00:16-05:00 2018-12-09T08:00:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54175#p54175
Wm.Ince wrote:What would be the best indicator of whether good maintenance was done to an ELSA?


Same as for an SLSA or a certified aircraft - start with a very thorough examination of the aircraft and engine maintenance records, by someone who knows exactly what to look for. Careless or incomplete documentation is a good indicator if possible shoddy maintenance. Start by reviewing my webinar "What's In Your Logbooks?" online at:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_Documentation.mp4]]>
Wm.Ince wrote:What would be the best indicator of whether good maintenance was done to an ELSA?


Same as for an SLSA or a certified aircraft - start with a very thorough examination of the aircraft and engine maintenance records, by someone who knows exactly what to look for. Careless or incomplete documentation is a good indicator if possible shoddy maintenance. Start by reviewing my webinar "What's In Your Logbooks?" online at:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_Documentation.mp4]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-09T09:16:02-05:00 2018-12-09T09:16:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54176#p54176
Over the years, most of the horrifically bad maintenance-induced-failures I’ve seen or read about have been at the hands of FAA-certified mechanics. And some of the best work has been done by non-certified owners on their own Experimental planes.

Just a single data point - or two: My first 2 Annual Condition Inspections were done by a respected shop specializing in Light Sport. Both times left things undone - cowling latch pin missing (both times), passenger seat unsecured (once), and the battery replaced with a different model without an LOA. Though I’m human, and therefore fallible, over the last 8 or 9 Annual Condition Inspections I’ve yet to commit such blunder, though I always try to be alert to the possibility. And I thank Tim for the confidence he seems to place on me - I only hope it’s warranted.

Finally, I don’t think there would or should be any difference in the scope or detail of a pre-buy inspection dependent on who had been doing the maintenance. Plenty of shoddy maintenance out there regardless of the legal status of the mechanic.]]>

Over the years, most of the horrifically bad maintenance-induced-failures I’ve seen or read about have been at the hands of FAA-certified mechanics. And some of the best work has been done by non-certified owners on their own Experimental planes.

Just a single data point - or two: My first 2 Annual Condition Inspections were done by a respected shop specializing in Light Sport. Both times left things undone - cowling latch pin missing (both times), passenger seat unsecured (once), and the battery replaced with a different model without an LOA. Though I’m human, and therefore fallible, over the last 8 or 9 Annual Condition Inspections I’ve yet to commit such blunder, though I always try to be alert to the possibility. And I thank Tim for the confidence he seems to place on me - I only hope it’s warranted.

Finally, I don’t think there would or should be any difference in the scope or detail of a pre-buy inspection dependent on who had been doing the maintenance. Plenty of shoddy maintenance out there regardless of the legal status of the mechanic.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-09T10:45:48-05:00 2018-12-09T10:45:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54177#p54177
FastEddieB wrote:I think some may be making an unwarranted assumption. To wit, that certified aircraft mechanics do better work than non-certified owners of ELSA’s.

Over the years, most of the horrifically bad maintenance-induced-failures I’ve seen or read about have been at the hands of FAA-certified mechanics. And some of the best work has been done by non-certified owners on their own Experimental planes.

Just a single data point - or two: My first 2 Annual Condition Inspections were done by a respected shop specializing in Light Sport. Both times left things undone - cowling latch pin missing (both times), passenger seat unsecured (once), and the battery replaced with a different model without an LOA. Though I’m human, and therefore fallible, over the last 8 or 9 Annual Condition Inspections I’ve yet to commit such blunder, though I always try to be alert to the possibility. And I thank Tim for the confidence he seems to place on me - I only hope it’s warranted.

Finally, I don’t think there would or should be any difference in the scope or detail of a pre-buy inspection dependent on who had been doing the maintenance. Plenty of shoddy maintenance out there regardless of the legal status of the mechanic.


VERY, VERY well said Eddie. I personally feel that my attention to detail on my own maintenance is FAR better than any mechanic that I could hire. Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service. I know it's right. I've seen plug wires left disconnected and only caught at the run up after the service, safety wire not installed where needed, hoses left lose among other things by various mechanics. I'm human and make mistakes also but I triple check my plane after service and make very thorough log entries for whatever I do, even the little things.

The pre-purchase inspection between a S-LSA and a E-LSA should be the same, extremely thorough. Just because a certified LSRM or A&P did the work and signed the log entries DOES NOT MEAN IT"S CORRECT. Also, just because the owner of an E-LSA did the work and signed the log entries does not mean it's NOT correct.

Very presumptuous of some to assume that an E-LSA owner did the work or that it may be second rate work. I know of a few E-LSA owners who still refuse to change their own oil and others that have the schooling, knowledge and ability to work on their own plane.

For ANY pre purchase inspection, one should not focus on WHO did the work but more importantly focus on the work performed and how well, or not, it was carried out and are the logs thorough and current with what you see during the inspection.

I can guarantee you that I take way better care and maintenance of my plane than ANY mechanic would.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:I think some may be making an unwarranted assumption. To wit, that certified aircraft mechanics do better work than non-certified owners of ELSA’s.

Over the years, most of the horrifically bad maintenance-induced-failures I’ve seen or read about have been at the hands of FAA-certified mechanics. And some of the best work has been done by non-certified owners on their own Experimental planes.

Just a single data point - or two: My first 2 Annual Condition Inspections were done by a respected shop specializing in Light Sport. Both times left things undone - cowling latch pin missing (both times), passenger seat unsecured (once), and the battery replaced with a different model without an LOA. Though I’m human, and therefore fallible, over the last 8 or 9 Annual Condition Inspections I’ve yet to commit such blunder, though I always try to be alert to the possibility. And I thank Tim for the confidence he seems to place on me - I only hope it’s warranted.

Finally, I don’t think there would or should be any difference in the scope or detail of a pre-buy inspection dependent on who had been doing the maintenance. Plenty of shoddy maintenance out there regardless of the legal status of the mechanic.


VERY, VERY well said Eddie. I personally feel that my attention to detail on my own maintenance is FAR better than any mechanic that I could hire. Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service. I know it's right. I've seen plug wires left disconnected and only caught at the run up after the service, safety wire not installed where needed, hoses left lose among other things by various mechanics. I'm human and make mistakes also but I triple check my plane after service and make very thorough log entries for whatever I do, even the little things.

The pre-purchase inspection between a S-LSA and a E-LSA should be the same, extremely thorough. Just because a certified LSRM or A&P did the work and signed the log entries DOES NOT MEAN IT"S CORRECT. Also, just because the owner of an E-LSA did the work and signed the log entries does not mean it's NOT correct.

Very presumptuous of some to assume that an E-LSA owner did the work or that it may be second rate work. I know of a few E-LSA owners who still refuse to change their own oil and others that have the schooling, knowledge and ability to work on their own plane.

For ANY pre purchase inspection, one should not focus on WHO did the work but more importantly focus on the work performed and how well, or not, it was carried out and are the logs thorough and current with what you see during the inspection.

I can guarantee you that I take way better care and maintenance of my plane than ANY mechanic would.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-09T11:48:35-05:00 2018-12-09T11:48:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54179#p54179 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-09T12:21:31-05:00 2018-12-09T12:21:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54180#p54180
ShawnM wrote:Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service.


Not necessarily, Shawn. Some of us won't return your plane to you until we've put our own butts in the seat and done a test flight! Contrast that with those mechanics who will never fly in a plane they've worked on - doesn't that just instill confidence? ;)]]>
ShawnM wrote:Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service.


Not necessarily, Shawn. Some of us won't return your plane to you until we've put our own butts in the seat and done a test flight! Contrast that with those mechanics who will never fly in a plane they've worked on - doesn't that just instill confidence? ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-09T12:27:35-05:00 2018-12-09T12:27:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54181#p54181
drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote:Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service.


Not necessarily, Shawn. Some of us won't return your plane to you until we've put our own butts in the seat and done a test flight! Contrast that with those mechanics who will never fly in a plane they've worked on - doesn't that just instill confidence? ;)


Oh, that's good. Request your mechanic to join you on the "return to service" flight after he's done. That might get you a more thorough condition inspection. :mrgreen:]]>
drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote:Nothing against mechanics out there but it's my butt in that seat when I take off after any service.


Not necessarily, Shawn. Some of us won't return your plane to you until we've put our own butts in the seat and done a test flight! Contrast that with those mechanics who will never fly in a plane they've worked on - doesn't that just instill confidence? ;)


Oh, that's good. Request your mechanic to join you on the "return to service" flight after he's done. That might get you a more thorough condition inspection. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-09T12:54:07-05:00 2018-12-09T12:54:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54182#p54182
Of course, many or most owners might do a very good job of maintaining their aircraft. However, you don't know what you don't know. My question was how could you ascertain how well the owner had maintained his aircraft? I wondered if you could tell that with your pre-purchase inspection, but Bill Ince chimed in that that is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection. Well, of course it is, as has now been stated by multiple people. A pre-purchase inspection also includes a thorough review of the logbook entries and all associated paperwork.

Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.]]>

Of course, many or most owners might do a very good job of maintaining their aircraft. However, you don't know what you don't know. My question was how could you ascertain how well the owner had maintained his aircraft? I wondered if you could tell that with your pre-purchase inspection, but Bill Ince chimed in that that is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection. Well, of course it is, as has now been stated by multiple people. A pre-purchase inspection also includes a thorough review of the logbook entries and all associated paperwork.

Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-11T07:56:40-05:00 2018-12-11T07:56:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54186#p54186
TimTaylor wrote:Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.


Wow, it's cold in here........

Ok, I guess l'll be the one to address the elephant in the room. Why is it whenever there is a "pissing match" there's always one common denominator?

I get it, we are all passionate about flying and there's always going to be a difference of opinion, the world would be boring if there weren't. But there's no reason for petty jabs at other members because they may have formed an opinion different than your own.

Now let the OP "fall back in love with light sport". Many members here love light sport flying.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.


Wow, it's cold in here........

Ok, I guess l'll be the one to address the elephant in the room. Why is it whenever there is a "pissing match" there's always one common denominator?

I get it, we are all passionate about flying and there's always going to be a difference of opinion, the world would be boring if there weren't. But there's no reason for petty jabs at other members because they may have formed an opinion different than your own.

Now let the OP "fall back in love with light sport". Many members here love light sport flying.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-11T12:28:55-05:00 2018-12-11T12:28:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54189#p54189
TimTaylor wrote:My question was how could you ascertain how well the owner had maintained his aircraft? I wondered if you could tell that with your pre-purchase inspection, but Bill Ince chimed in that that is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection . . . Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.

That’s a bunch of crap.
This is what you actually said, and I quote,
TimTaylor wrote:. . . I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

The prepurchase inspection is not to find out if the owner “knew what he is doing.”
Quite often, you attempt to twist things around, to cover your ass and suit your own purpose.
That doesn’t work here.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:My question was how could you ascertain how well the owner had maintained his aircraft? I wondered if you could tell that with your pre-purchase inspection, but Bill Ince chimed in that that is not the purpose of a pre-purchase inspection . . . Once again, someone has taken a thread where we were having a useful discussion and turned it into a pissing match.

That’s a bunch of crap.
This is what you actually said, and I quote,
TimTaylor wrote:. . . I'm not sure a pre-purchase inspection is going to be able to ascertain whether or not the previous owner knew what he was doing.

The prepurchase inspection is not to find out if the owner “knew what he is doing.”
Quite often, you attempt to twist things around, to cover your ass and suit your own purpose.
That doesn’t work here.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-11T12:48:35-05:00 2018-12-11T12:48:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54190#p54190 everybody to take a step back, and return to the topic of this thread.]]> everybody to take a step back, and return to the topic of this thread.]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-11T13:30:02-05:00 2018-12-11T13:30:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54192#p54192
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<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T14:09:56-05:00 2018-12-11T14:09:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54193#p54193
FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..


Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.


My post was in reference to this. I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote:I converted the Zodiac to ELSA and took the Rainbow Aviation LSRI class and now have my LSRI certificate so I can maintain and do my own condition inspections..


Small point...

No class or training is required to maintain an E-LSA you own.

I mention it only because a lot of folks don’t understand that.


My post was in reference to this. I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-11T14:27:22-05:00 2018-12-11T14:27:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54194#p54194
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T14:36:37-05:00 2018-12-11T14:36:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54195#p54195
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.

So, if he advertised the aircraft is 'in great shape" and the pre-buy confirms the aircraft is "in great shape," then the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.

So, if he advertised the aircraft is 'in great shape" and the pre-buy confirms the aircraft is "in great shape," then the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-11T14:44:05-05:00 2018-12-11T14:44:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54196#p54196
TimTaylor wrote: the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.


Yes, one or the other. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which.]]>
TimTaylor wrote: the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.


Yes, one or the other. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T14:56:51-05:00 2018-12-11T14:56:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54197#p54197
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.


Yes, one or the other. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which.


Bingo!]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.


Yes, one or the other. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which.


Bingo!]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-11T15:12:13-05:00 2018-12-11T15:12:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54198#p54198 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T15:23:32-05:00 2018-12-11T15:24:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54199#p54199
drseti wrote:The same, however, is true of an LSRM, A&P, or IA who worked on a plane that was found satisfactory in a prebuy. That person either knew what he or she was doing, or got lucky. So owner maintenance is not necessarily any better or worse than professional maintenance!


But, as I said before, I would rather take my chances with a professionally trained and experienced mechanic vs a new owner with no training or experience who I don't know. I think there is value in training and experience. Others will have their own opinions. I'm not saying I would never purchase an E-LSA. I'm just saying I would be a little more uneasy about it, unless I knew the seller.]]>
drseti wrote:The same, however, is true of an LSRM, A&P, or IA who worked on a plane that was found satisfactory in a prebuy. That person either knew what he or she was doing, or got lucky. So owner maintenance is not necessarily any better or worse than professional maintenance!


But, as I said before, I would rather take my chances with a professionally trained and experienced mechanic vs a new owner with no training or experience who I don't know. I think there is value in training and experience. Others will have their own opinions. I'm not saying I would never purchase an E-LSA. I'm just saying I would be a little more uneasy about it, unless I knew the seller.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-11T15:24:11-05:00 2018-12-11T15:24:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54200#p54200
TimTaylor wrote:
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.


Yes, one or the other. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which.


Bingo!


Why would it matter which it was? You're the buyer and if you feel the aircraft is "in great shape" then it's on you to either buy it or not. If the aircraft is "in great shape" and the logs are in order that would tell me the service and maintenance was done properly, hence the "in great shape" comment. Why would it matter if it was done by a certified mechanic or a monkey? Jeez

Here's my mechanic performing a carb sync at my last annual and he signed all my log entries, my plane is "in great shape". :mrgreen:
Image]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: the owner who did his own maintenance probably knew what he was doing or just got lucky.


Yes, one or the other. Unfortunately, it's impossible to know which.


Bingo!


Why would it matter which it was? You're the buyer and if you feel the aircraft is "in great shape" then it's on you to either buy it or not. If the aircraft is "in great shape" and the logs are in order that would tell me the service and maintenance was done properly, hence the "in great shape" comment. Why would it matter if it was done by a certified mechanic or a monkey? Jeez

Here's my mechanic performing a carb sync at my last annual and he signed all my log entries, my plane is "in great shape". :mrgreen:
Image]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T15:31:30-05:00 2018-12-11T15:53:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54201#p54201
I think the correct answer is you just do the best you can with a pre-buy and take your chances. I would consider who did the maintenance, some others would not.]]>

I think the correct answer is you just do the best you can with a pre-buy and take your chances. I would consider who did the maintenance, some others would not.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-11T15:36:19-05:00 2018-12-11T15:36:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54202#p54202 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-11T16:17:46-05:00 2018-12-11T16:17:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54203#p54203
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.


IA's don't perform maintenance.]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.


IA's don't perform maintenance.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-11T16:35:08-05:00 2018-12-11T16:35:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54204#p54204
TimTaylor wrote:Obviously, it wouldn't matter if the aircraft was actually "in great shape." That begs the question I asked earlier, is it possible to ascertain that with a pre-buy inspection?

I think the correct answer is you just do the best you can with a pre-buy and take your chances. I would consider who did the maintenance, some others would not.


It doesn't take long for a mechanic who knows what they are doing to look at an aircraft and determine the level of maintenance it has had.
Paul can chime in here, but I think most of the training to be a LSRM is not on how to perform the work but rather how to document the work and comply with the regulations.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Obviously, it wouldn't matter if the aircraft was actually "in great shape." That begs the question I asked earlier, is it possible to ascertain that with a pre-buy inspection?

I think the correct answer is you just do the best you can with a pre-buy and take your chances. I would consider who did the maintenance, some others would not.


It doesn't take long for a mechanic who knows what they are doing to look at an aircraft and determine the level of maintenance it has had.
Paul can chime in here, but I think most of the training to be a LSRM is not on how to perform the work but rather how to document the work and comply with the regulations.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-11T17:11:14-05:00 2018-12-11T17:11:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54205#p54205
3Dreaming wrote:Paul can chime in here, but I think most of the training to be a LSRM is not on how to perform the work but rather how to document the work and comply with the regulations.


That was certainly true for the three-week LSRM course I took. However, I must point out that most of us in the class had decades of wrench-turning experience. So, we were there not necessarily to learn how to be hands-on mechanics, but rather to learn the FARs and documentation standards.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Paul can chime in here, but I think most of the training to be a LSRM is not on how to perform the work but rather how to document the work and comply with the regulations.


That was certainly true for the three-week LSRM course I took. However, I must point out that most of us in the class had decades of wrench-turning experience. So, we were there not necessarily to learn how to be hands-on mechanics, but rather to learn the FARs and documentation standards.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-11T17:54:24-05:00 2018-12-11T17:58:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54206#p54206
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.

Paul has it right. Whether the airplane was maintained and inspected by an A&P/IA or an owner with a light sport repairman-inspection certificate, a pre-purchase inspection is the only way to tell if it's safe to fly.

The previous owner of my Zodiac was an 85 year old retired ATP who hadn't flown it for five years, but dutifully had a certified repair station perform an annual on it every year. The last annual before I bought it in May, 2016 had been signed off five months before in January. The pre-purchase inspection revealed two pages of squawks with several items rendering it unairworthy. Apparently, the shop had pencil-whipped the annuals knowing the owner would likely never fly it again. The engine and airframe had less than 100 hours since new, so I bought it and fixed the squawks.

For fifteen years, I did owner assisted annuals on my 172 under the direction of my IA, including checking engine compression, cleaning and gapping the plugs, changing the oil & oil filter and inspecting the filter for metal, checking control cables for condition and tension, lubricating pulleys, removing wheels and cleaning/regreasing bearings, servicing the nose gear oleo strut, verifying proper operation of all instruments, avionics, and lights, and ensuring pitot/static and transponders tests currency. Finally, I closely inspected the airframe for smoking or popped rivets, corrosion, and any signs of stress or cracks.

I know how to do my own maintenance iaw the manufacturer's recommendations and AC 43.13-1B, and as a USAF avionics tech I know how to install and check my own avionics.

I also know when to ask for help if there's something I don't feel competent to do; it's my butt - not some mechanic's - that's at risk if my airplane isn't safe.

<rant off>]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I was asking if a pre-purchase inspection would be able to tell if an owner who did his own maintenance knew what he was doing while maintaining his own aircraft.


Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.

Paul has it right. Whether the airplane was maintained and inspected by an A&P/IA or an owner with a light sport repairman-inspection certificate, a pre-purchase inspection is the only way to tell if it's safe to fly.

The previous owner of my Zodiac was an 85 year old retired ATP who hadn't flown it for five years, but dutifully had a certified repair station perform an annual on it every year. The last annual before I bought it in May, 2016 had been signed off five months before in January. The pre-purchase inspection revealed two pages of squawks with several items rendering it unairworthy. Apparently, the shop had pencil-whipped the annuals knowing the owner would likely never fly it again. The engine and airframe had less than 100 hours since new, so I bought it and fixed the squawks.

For fifteen years, I did owner assisted annuals on my 172 under the direction of my IA, including checking engine compression, cleaning and gapping the plugs, changing the oil & oil filter and inspecting the filter for metal, checking control cables for condition and tension, lubricating pulleys, removing wheels and cleaning/regreasing bearings, servicing the nose gear oleo strut, verifying proper operation of all instruments, avionics, and lights, and ensuring pitot/static and transponders tests currency. Finally, I closely inspected the airframe for smoking or popped rivets, corrosion, and any signs of stress or cracks.

I know how to do my own maintenance iaw the manufacturer's recommendations and AC 43.13-1B, and as a USAF avionics tech I know how to install and check my own avionics.

I also know when to ask for help if there's something I don't feel competent to do; it's my butt - not some mechanic's - that's at risk if my airplane isn't safe.

<rant off>]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-11T17:57:11-05:00 2018-12-11T17:57:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54207#p54207
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Paul can chime in here, but I think most of the training to be a LSRM is not on how to perform the work but rather how to document the work and comply with the regulations.


That was certainly true for the three-week LSRM course I took. However, I must point out that most of us in the class had decades of wrench-turning experience. So, we were there not necessarily to learn how to be hands-on mechanics, but rather to learn the FARs and documentation standards.


My point was that having the creds doesn't make you a better mechanic, it just teaches you how to document what you have done.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Paul can chime in here, but I think most of the training to be a LSRM is not on how to perform the work but rather how to document the work and comply with the regulations.


That was certainly true for the three-week LSRM course I took. However, I must point out that most of us in the class had decades of wrench-turning experience. So, we were there not necessarily to learn how to be hands-on mechanics, but rather to learn the FARs and documentation standards.


My point was that having the creds doesn't make you a better mechanic, it just teaches you how to document what you have done.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T18:02:45-05:00 2018-12-11T18:47:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54208#p54208 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-11T18:30:05-05:00 2018-12-11T18:30:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54209#p54209 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T18:47:34-05:00 2018-12-11T18:47:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54210#p54210
FastEddieB wrote:Diligent?


Whoops. Thanks for catching that. And I even used spell checker.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:Diligent?


Whoops. Thanks for catching that. And I even used spell checker.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-11T19:52:38-05:00 2018-12-11T19:52:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54211#p54211
Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 7.47.35 PM.jpeg


PM me if you need their contact information.

Attachments



Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 7.47.35 PM.jpeg (65.76 KiB)


]]>

Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 7.47.35 PM.jpeg


PM me if you need their contact information.

Attachments



Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 7.47.35 PM.jpeg (65.76 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T20:11:51-05:00 2018-12-11T20:11:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54212#p54212 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-11T20:42:03-05:00 2018-12-11T20:42:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54213#p54213 Image]]> Image]]> <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-11T20:45:44-05:00 2018-12-11T20:46:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54214#p54214 <![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-11T20:46:14-05:00 2018-12-11T20:46:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54215#p54215
TimTaylor wrote:They might be great. How would you know?


A pre-purchase inspection. That's how. :mrgreen:]]>
TimTaylor wrote:They might be great. How would you know?


A pre-purchase inspection. That's how. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-11T23:13:20-05:00 2018-12-11T23:13:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54216#p54216
TimTaylor wrote:Stan, I would purchase an aircraft from you in a heart beat.

Thanks, Jim.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Stan, I would purchase an aircraft from you in a heart beat.

Thanks, Jim.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-12T08:27:50-05:00 2018-12-12T08:27:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54218#p54218
TimTaylor wrote:We're all related.


And 98% chimp. :mrgreen:]]>
TimTaylor wrote:We're all related.


And 98% chimp. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-12T08:43:44-05:00 2018-12-12T08:43:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54219#p54219
ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:We're all related.


And 98% chimp. :mrgreen:


Speak for myself.]]>
ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:We're all related.


And 98% chimp. :mrgreen:


Speak for myself.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-12T13:37:04-05:00 2018-12-12T13:37:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54220#p54220
drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:We're all related.


And 98% chimp. :mrgreen:


Speak for myself.

...and in my case at least, 2.4% Neanderthal (thanks, 23andme).]]>
drseti wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:We're all related.


And 98% chimp. :mrgreen:


Speak for myself.

...and in my case at least, 2.4% Neanderthal (thanks, 23andme).]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-12T14:18:18-05:00 2018-12-12T14:18:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54221#p54221
Scooper wrote:...and in my case at least, 2.4% Neanderthal (thanks, 23andme).


I love 23andMe, Stan! It confirmed I'm 99.7% Ashkenazi. (Who knew?)]]>
Scooper wrote:...and in my case at least, 2.4% Neanderthal (thanks, 23andme).


I love 23andMe, Stan! It confirmed I'm 99.7% Ashkenazi. (Who knew?)]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-12T14:54:29-05:00 2018-12-12T14:54:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54222#p54222
North and West European
72.9%
English
16.4%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
9.8%
Indigenous Amazonian
0.9%]]>

North and West European
72.9%
English
16.4%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
9.8%
Indigenous Amazonian
0.9%]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-12T17:57:14-05:00 2018-12-12T17:57:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54223#p54223
drseti wrote:I love 23andMe, Stan! It confirmed I'm 99.7% Ashkenazi. (Who knew?)


You've got me beat by a country mile; I'm only 2.7% Ashkenazi.

One of the chapters in the book The 10,000 Year Explosion is called "How Ashkenazi Jews Got Their Smarts." It's an interesting read.]]>
drseti wrote:I love 23andMe, Stan! It confirmed I'm 99.7% Ashkenazi. (Who knew?)


You've got me beat by a country mile; I'm only 2.7% Ashkenazi.

One of the chapters in the book The 10,000 Year Explosion is called "How Ashkenazi Jews Got Their Smarts." It's an interesting read.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-12T18:11:16-05:00 2018-12-12T18:11:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54224#p54224
TimTaylor wrote:Here is mine from My Heritage:

North and West European
72.9%
English
16.4%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
9.8%
Indigenous Amazonian
0.9%

I'm convinced most of us are mutts. :)
Here's mine. I'm 2.2% Sub-Saharan African on my dad's side. I had no idea, and don't think he knew either.
Image]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Here is mine from My Heritage:

North and West European
72.9%
English
16.4%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh
9.8%
Indigenous Amazonian
0.9%

I'm convinced most of us are mutts. :)
Here's mine. I'm 2.2% Sub-Saharan African on my dad's side. I had no idea, and don't think he knew either.
Image]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-12T18:20:28-05:00 2018-12-12T18:20:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54226#p54226
drseti wrote:Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.

That is absoluely correct. Thank you for underscoring that point.]]>
drseti wrote:Heck, a prebuy examination can't even tell if an LSRM, A&P, or AI knew what he or she was doing! The prebuy can only determine if the aircraft as viewed is indeed as advertised.

That is absoluely correct. Thank you for underscoring that point.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-13T12:12:08-05:00 2018-12-13T12:12:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54233#p54233
Who did the maintenance, who did the inspections, when were they done, are all the required inspections and maintenance items current, are there any service bulletins (or whatever LSA calls them), are they up-to-date, have oil changes been done according to schedule, was the correct oil used, are all safety wiring in place, are there any visible oil or fuel leaks, what are compressions, any metal found in oil at last annual, was it even tested, how does aircraft run and sound, etc. Are logbook entries neat and complete, are required logbook entries missing, is there any visible aircraft damage, do control surfaces work smoothly and properly, do all instruments, lights, radios, appear to work properly, is anything missing from the panel, are the required documents and placards in place, is interior in good shape, is paint in good shape, etc. etc.

In other words, DID THE PERSON MAINTAINING THIS AIRCRAFT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING?

This is just my opinion. If someone else would pay for a pre-buy simply to verify the aircraft had 1000 hours SMOH with no damage history, go for it.]]>

Who did the maintenance, who did the inspections, when were they done, are all the required inspections and maintenance items current, are there any service bulletins (or whatever LSA calls them), are they up-to-date, have oil changes been done according to schedule, was the correct oil used, are all safety wiring in place, are there any visible oil or fuel leaks, what are compressions, any metal found in oil at last annual, was it even tested, how does aircraft run and sound, etc. Are logbook entries neat and complete, are required logbook entries missing, is there any visible aircraft damage, do control surfaces work smoothly and properly, do all instruments, lights, radios, appear to work properly, is anything missing from the panel, are the required documents and placards in place, is interior in good shape, is paint in good shape, etc. etc.

In other words, DID THE PERSON MAINTAINING THIS AIRCRAFT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING?

This is just my opinion. If someone else would pay for a pre-buy simply to verify the aircraft had 1000 hours SMOH with no damage history, go for it.]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-13T13:30:01-05:00 2018-12-13T13:30:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54236#p54236
TimTaylor wrote:That's not necessarily correct. As advertised might be as simple as 1000 hours SMOH with no damage history. I would hope a pre-buy inspection could do more than verify that information. For my money, I would want a pre-buy to determine, among other things:

Who did the maintenance, who did the inspections, when were they done, are all the required inspections and maintenance items current, are there any service bulletins (or whatever LSA calls them), are they up-to-date, have oil changes been done according to schedule, was the correct oil used, are all safety wiring in place, are there any visible oil or fuel leaks, what are compressions, any metal found in oil at last annual, was it even tested, how does aircraft run and sound, etc. Are logbook entries neat and complete, are required logbook entries missing, is there any visible aircraft damage, do control surfaces work smoothly and properly, do all instruments, lights, radios, appear to work properly, is anything missing from the panel, are the required documents and placards in place, is interior in good shape, is paint in good shape, etc. etc.

In other words, DID THE PERSON MAINTAINING THIS AIRCRAFT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING?

This is just my opinion. If someone else would pay for a pre-buy simply to verify the aircraft had 1000 hours SMOH with no damage history, go for it.


I agree Tim, this is, to me, what a pre-buy inspection should cover, and MORE. And in looking at all you outlined you could possibly know
if the person doing the work did or did not know what they were doing. Is safety wire missing? Is it done properly? Are there enough threads showing on a bolt? Are the log entries detailed and thorough? etc. You can tell if corners were cut or not by the craftsmanship of the work and the logbook entries. My pre-buy took about 7 hours (it was basically an annual) with the plane itself as it was my very first airplane purchase and I wanted to know for sure what I was buying and how much more it would cost me to bring it into compliance if needed. Then I spent the entire next day looking at SB's, paperwork, doing research and going through the log books page by page to be sure everything was complied with according to the manufacturer and Rotax. It took two trips with a LSRM to the aircraft before I decided to buy it. He was also an instructor so we even test flew the plane for about an hour as well. Just kicking the tires on a 1000 hours SMOH and no damage history simply won't do. :mrgreen:]]>
TimTaylor wrote:That's not necessarily correct. As advertised might be as simple as 1000 hours SMOH with no damage history. I would hope a pre-buy inspection could do more than verify that information. For my money, I would want a pre-buy to determine, among other things:

Who did the maintenance, who did the inspections, when were they done, are all the required inspections and maintenance items current, are there any service bulletins (or whatever LSA calls them), are they up-to-date, have oil changes been done according to schedule, was the correct oil used, are all safety wiring in place, are there any visible oil or fuel leaks, what are compressions, any metal found in oil at last annual, was it even tested, how does aircraft run and sound, etc. Are logbook entries neat and complete, are required logbook entries missing, is there any visible aircraft damage, do control surfaces work smoothly and properly, do all instruments, lights, radios, appear to work properly, is anything missing from the panel, are the required documents and placards in place, is interior in good shape, is paint in good shape, etc. etc.

In other words, DID THE PERSON MAINTAINING THIS AIRCRAFT KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING?

This is just my opinion. If someone else would pay for a pre-buy simply to verify the aircraft had 1000 hours SMOH with no damage history, go for it.


I agree Tim, this is, to me, what a pre-buy inspection should cover, and MORE. And in looking at all you outlined you could possibly know
if the person doing the work did or did not know what they were doing. Is safety wire missing? Is it done properly? Are there enough threads showing on a bolt? Are the log entries detailed and thorough? etc. You can tell if corners were cut or not by the craftsmanship of the work and the logbook entries. My pre-buy took about 7 hours (it was basically an annual) with the plane itself as it was my very first airplane purchase and I wanted to know for sure what I was buying and how much more it would cost me to bring it into compliance if needed. Then I spent the entire next day looking at SB's, paperwork, doing research and going through the log books page by page to be sure everything was complied with according to the manufacturer and Rotax. It took two trips with a LSRM to the aircraft before I decided to buy it. He was also an instructor so we even test flew the plane for about an hour as well. Just kicking the tires on a 1000 hours SMOH and no damage history simply won't do. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Hangar Talk :: Re: Falling back in love with Light Sport :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-13T14:07:37-05:00 2018-12-13T14:07:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5240&p=54238#p54238 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: High Altitude Airports and LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-19T10:09:12-05:00 2018-11-19T10:09:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5220&p=53875#p53875
TimTaylor wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I responded to the OP that an LSA would be perfectly fine flying where he is located in Colorado Springs. I also made the point that there is not as much opportunity to reduce the weight of an LSA as there is with other aircraft, which is a true statement. I did not say or imply an LSA was a better or worse option for his situation.

And yes, I would much much prefer flying the M20C to the SkyCatchers and Remos GX I am currently flying. So what? I am now relegated to LSA and am quite happy with it. I don't remember EVER bad mouthing LSA or Sport Pilots.


And, by the way, I made no mention of flying a Mooney or preferring a Mooney or any other aircraft. Some other guy said that, out of the blue, and suggested I don't belong here. What the hell?


I think his comments were based on more than just this thread. At times you comments come across as pretty negative towards sport pilot and LSA, even if that is not your intent.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I responded to the OP that an LSA would be perfectly fine flying where he is located in Colorado Springs. I also made the point that there is not as much opportunity to reduce the weight of an LSA as there is with other aircraft, which is a true statement. I did not say or imply an LSA was a better or worse option for his situation.

And yes, I would much much prefer flying the M20C to the SkyCatchers and Remos GX I am currently flying. So what? I am now relegated to LSA and am quite happy with it. I don't remember EVER bad mouthing LSA or Sport Pilots.


And, by the way, I made no mention of flying a Mooney or preferring a Mooney or any other aircraft. Some other guy said that, out of the blue, and suggested I don't belong here. What the hell?


I think his comments were based on more than just this thread. At times you comments come across as pretty negative towards sport pilot and LSA, even if that is not your intent.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: High Altitude Airports and LSA :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-19T12:08:08-05:00 2018-11-19T12:08:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5220&p=53876#p53876 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: High Altitude Airports and LSA :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-11-19T13:28:08-05:00 2018-11-19T13:28:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5220&p=53878#p53878
1) 1320lb gross LSA (100hp)

2) 2640lb gross non-LSA (200hp)

To reduce weight and increase performance, aircraft B leaves two 200lb passengers behind. Aircraft A leaves one 200lb passenger behind. Which one gets the bigger performance bump? Answer: the performance increase on a percentage basis is identical.

It's not about power, it's about power to weight.

Sure, at 10,000ft takeoff roll might double...the same as it does for every normally-aspirated airplane. There's nothing inherently low performance about a 100hp airplane, it just depends on weight. And with wing loadings usually lower for LSA than other GA airplanes, the LSA might actually have an advantage at higher altitudes.

My CTSW breaks ground in about 600ft, and then climbs at 900fpm at gross; if my takeoff roll doubles I'm not going to sweat it on a decent length runway.]]>

1) 1320lb gross LSA (100hp)

2) 2640lb gross non-LSA (200hp)

To reduce weight and increase performance, aircraft B leaves two 200lb passengers behind. Aircraft A leaves one 200lb passenger behind. Which one gets the bigger performance bump? Answer: the performance increase on a percentage basis is identical.

It's not about power, it's about power to weight.

Sure, at 10,000ft takeoff roll might double...the same as it does for every normally-aspirated airplane. There's nothing inherently low performance about a 100hp airplane, it just depends on weight. And with wing loadings usually lower for LSA than other GA airplanes, the LSA might actually have an advantage at higher altitudes.

My CTSW breaks ground in about 600ft, and then climbs at 900fpm at gross; if my takeoff roll doubles I'm not going to sweat it on a decent length runway.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: High Altitude Airports and LSA :: Reply by jetcat3]]> 2018-11-20T12:06:14-05:00 2018-11-20T12:06:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5220&p=53903#p53903 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: FAA Letter :: Author RickSigler]]> 2018-12-03T16:07:50-05:00 2018-12-03T16:07:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54082#p54082

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMxiumRhqnF44eYCJlxy_K4Rt7HBmeOZjn4XQEMKUM4s4vhDPHffe9_sXDVGot3JA?key=eTRveWxWbWdCaGtnWjBLUVVZVHd6T0ZWQXJlMGVR

I just received this letter Saturday from the FAA stating that there is an error in my registration. I contacted the dealer concerning the error and he said that this is a new required document that has not been required before. I submitted my registration in May 2018 and thought everything was fine, but I forgot how the FAA won't miss an opportunity to make your life miserable.

The FAA doesn't cite any law or regulation that mandates this ridiculous requirement and I have been unable to find any support for their demand. I suspect this is something they just dreamt up. There is obviously one major glaring error in their demand. I did not buy the plane from the manufacturer, but rather I bought it from the U.S. dealer. So, there is nothing wrong with my registration and the error supposedly occurred when the dealer registered the plane to his corp which the FAA had no problem with at the time. What makes this really silly is that my plane was built for me and was brand new when I took possession. It seems that even the intellects at the FAA could figure out that the plane was transferred from the manufacturer to the dealer and there is no possible way another owner could have been involved.

I don't know how far back the FAA is going to go for previous registrations, but I doubt any planes imported have had this document provided by the Country's registration authority. I can't imagine getting this letter for a CT or any imported plane that was purchased years ago and passed through different owners and now having to contact a foreign country to get the document. If that happened to me I would not accept FAA's demand without proof that they have the legal authority to make this demand.

I don't think I'm going to have a problem with this demand because the dealer said he has contacted the manufacturer and will soon provide the letter, but I thought I'd let the members know that there is a possibility that more letters may be going out. The dealer told me I am the second owner that has contacted him about the problem.

I would like to know if any other members have ever had to meet this new requirement or am I and the other owner the only lucky ones.

Thanks.

Rick]]>


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMxiumRhqnF44eYCJlxy_K4Rt7HBmeOZjn4XQEMKUM4s4vhDPHffe9_sXDVGot3JA?key=eTRveWxWbWdCaGtnWjBLUVVZVHd6T0ZWQXJlMGVR

I just received this letter Saturday from the FAA stating that there is an error in my registration. I contacted the dealer concerning the error and he said that this is a new required document that has not been required before. I submitted my registration in May 2018 and thought everything was fine, but I forgot how the FAA won't miss an opportunity to make your life miserable.

The FAA doesn't cite any law or regulation that mandates this ridiculous requirement and I have been unable to find any support for their demand. I suspect this is something they just dreamt up. There is obviously one major glaring error in their demand. I did not buy the plane from the manufacturer, but rather I bought it from the U.S. dealer. So, there is nothing wrong with my registration and the error supposedly occurred when the dealer registered the plane to his corp which the FAA had no problem with at the time. What makes this really silly is that my plane was built for me and was brand new when I took possession. It seems that even the intellects at the FAA could figure out that the plane was transferred from the manufacturer to the dealer and there is no possible way another owner could have been involved.

I don't know how far back the FAA is going to go for previous registrations, but I doubt any planes imported have had this document provided by the Country's registration authority. I can't imagine getting this letter for a CT or any imported plane that was purchased years ago and passed through different owners and now having to contact a foreign country to get the document. If that happened to me I would not accept FAA's demand without proof that they have the legal authority to make this demand.

I don't think I'm going to have a problem with this demand because the dealer said he has contacted the manufacturer and will soon provide the letter, but I thought I'd let the members know that there is a possibility that more letters may be going out. The dealer told me I am the second owner that has contacted him about the problem.

I would like to know if any other members have ever had to meet this new requirement or am I and the other owner the only lucky ones.

Thanks.

Rick]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T16:41:52-05:00 2018-12-03T16:41:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54083#p54083
§21.191 Experimental certificates.

Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that-

(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190.

Image]]>

§21.191 Experimental certificates.

Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that-

(3) Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under §21.190.

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<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-03T18:14:08-05:00 2018-12-03T18:14:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54085#p54085 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T18:32:30-05:00 2018-12-03T18:32:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54086#p54086
TimTaylor wrote:You probably should have registered it as S-LSA first. Then, after is was properly registered in your name, gone through the proper steps to convert from S-LSA to E-LSA.

That's what I'm thinking too.

§21.190 Issue of a special airworthiness certificate for a light-sport category aircraft.
Excerpt:

(b) Eligibility. To be eligible for a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category:
(1) An applicant must provide the FAA with—
(i) The aircraft's operating instructions;
(ii) The aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures;
(iii) The manufacturer's statement of compliance as described in paragraph (c) of this section; and
(iv) The aircraft's flight training supplement.
(2) The aircraft must not have been previously issued a standard, primary, restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificate, or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by a foreign civil aviation authority.
(3) The aircraft must be inspected by the FAA and found to be in a condition for safe operation.


(d) Light-sport aircraft manufactured outside the United States. For aircraft manufactured outside of the United States to be eligible for a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category, an applicant must meet the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section and provide to the FAA evidence that—

(1) The aircraft was manufactured in a country with which the United States has a Bilateral Airworthiness Agreement concerning airplanes or Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement with associated Implementation Procedures for Airworthiness concerning airplanes, or an equivalent airworthiness agreement; and

(2) The aircraft is eligible for an airworthiness certificate, flight authorization, or other similar certification in its country of manufacture.

[Amdt. 21-85, 69 FR 44862, July 27, 2004]]]>
TimTaylor wrote:You probably should have registered it as S-LSA first. Then, after is was properly registered in your name, gone through the proper steps to convert from S-LSA to E-LSA.

That's what I'm thinking too.

§21.190 Issue of a special airworthiness certificate for a light-sport category aircraft.
Excerpt:

(b) Eligibility. To be eligible for a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category:
(1) An applicant must provide the FAA with—
(i) The aircraft's operating instructions;
(ii) The aircraft's maintenance and inspection procedures;
(iii) The manufacturer's statement of compliance as described in paragraph (c) of this section; and
(iv) The aircraft's flight training supplement.
(2) The aircraft must not have been previously issued a standard, primary, restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificate, or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by a foreign civil aviation authority.
(3) The aircraft must be inspected by the FAA and found to be in a condition for safe operation.


(d) Light-sport aircraft manufactured outside the United States. For aircraft manufactured outside of the United States to be eligible for a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category, an applicant must meet the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section and provide to the FAA evidence that—

(1) The aircraft was manufactured in a country with which the United States has a Bilateral Airworthiness Agreement concerning airplanes or Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement with associated Implementation Procedures for Airworthiness concerning airplanes, or an equivalent airworthiness agreement; and

(2) The aircraft is eligible for an airworthiness certificate, flight authorization, or other similar certification in its country of manufacture.

[Amdt. 21-85, 69 FR 44862, July 27, 2004]]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-03T18:48:08-05:00 2018-12-03T18:48:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54087#p54087 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-03T18:51:43-05:00 2018-12-03T18:51:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54088#p54088
"(2) The aircraft must not have been previously issued a standard, primary, restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificate, or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by a foreign civil aviation authority.".

It sounds like the FAA is wanting a letter stating that it meets this requirement.]]>

"(2) The aircraft must not have been previously issued a standard, primary, restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificate, or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by a foreign civil aviation authority.".

It sounds like the FAA is wanting a letter stating that it meets this requirement.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-03T19:10:25-05:00 2018-12-03T19:10:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54089#p54089
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.]]>
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T19:25:52-05:00 2018-12-03T19:25:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54090#p54090
3Dreaming wrote:In addition to what Scooper posted from 21.190 it also contains this statement,

"(2) The aircraft must not have been previously issued a standard, primary, restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificate, or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by a foreign civil aviation authority.".

It sounds like the FAA is wanting a letter stating that it meets this requirement.

I agree it sounds like there's a screwup getting the FAA Registry the right forms/paperwork to complete the change from 21.190 to 21.191. If that is the case, since it's a brand new airplane Rick bought from Bristell's U.S. dealer, the dealer should be responsible for providing Rick with the information the FAA is requesting.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:In addition to what Scooper posted from 21.190 it also contains this statement,

"(2) The aircraft must not have been previously issued a standard, primary, restricted, limited, or provisional airworthiness certificate, or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by a foreign civil aviation authority.".

It sounds like the FAA is wanting a letter stating that it meets this requirement.

I agree it sounds like there's a screwup getting the FAA Registry the right forms/paperwork to complete the change from 21.190 to 21.191. If that is the case, since it's a brand new airplane Rick bought from Bristell's U.S. dealer, the dealer should be responsible for providing Rick with the information the FAA is requesting.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-03T19:39:31-05:00 2018-12-03T19:39:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54091#p54091 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T19:53:33-05:00 2018-12-03T19:53:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54092#p54092
Rick, I'd get after Sport Flying USA to straighten things out with the FAA. I do have a couple of quick questions, though. Does N585NM have "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2" high letters on it and "Light Sport" removed from the fuselage?

Stan]]>

Rick, I'd get after Sport Flying USA to straighten things out with the FAA. I do have a couple of quick questions, though. Does N585NM have "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2" high letters on it and "Light Sport" removed from the fuselage?

Stan]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-03T19:53:43-05:00 2018-12-03T19:53:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54093#p54093
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.


Well, it is not like the OP is trying to scam the system or try to do anything even remotely improper....

The problem is not with doing what’s required but trying to figure out what is required in the first place ...]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.


Well, it is not like the OP is trying to scam the system or try to do anything even remotely improper....

The problem is not with doing what’s required but trying to figure out what is required in the first place ...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-03T19:55:58-05:00 2018-12-03T19:55:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54094#p54094
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.


Well, it is not like the OP is trying to scam the system or try to do anything even remotely improper....

The problem is not with doing what’s required but trying to figure out what is required in the first place ...


FAR 21.190

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/21.190]]>
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.


Well, it is not like the OP is trying to scam the system or try to do anything even remotely improper....

The problem is not with doing what’s required but trying to figure out what is required in the first place ...


FAR 21.190

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/21.190]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T19:58:49-05:00 2018-12-03T20:05:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54095#p54095
TimTaylor wrote:Again, I think if the OP had registered the airplane as S-LSA first, he may have avoided the problem. Several people on this forum have gone through the process of re-registering an S-LSA as an E-LSA. It does appear to require quite a bit of information be provided to the FAA to make this happen, but it's all clearly spelled out in the FAR's.

Tim, I'm one of those who went through the process with my AMD Zodiac SLSA. Brian and Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services shepherded me though all the paperwork (Brian is a DAR and A&P IA).

My airplane was made in Eastman, Georgia, so I didn't have the added complication of a foreign manufacturer. It was complicated enough as it was. :(]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Again, I think if the OP had registered the airplane as S-LSA first, he may have avoided the problem. Several people on this forum have gone through the process of re-registering an S-LSA as an E-LSA. It does appear to require quite a bit of information be provided to the FAA to make this happen, but it's all clearly spelled out in the FAR's.

Tim, I'm one of those who went through the process with my AMD Zodiac SLSA. Brian and Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services shepherded me though all the paperwork (Brian is a DAR and A&P IA).

My airplane was made in Eastman, Georgia, so I didn't have the added complication of a foreign manufacturer. It was complicated enough as it was. :(]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-03T20:04:24-05:00 2018-12-03T20:04:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54096#p54096
Scooper wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Again, I think if the OP had registered the airplane as S-LSA first, he may have avoided the problem. Several people on this forum have gone through the process of re-registering an S-LSA as an E-LSA. It does appear to require quite a bit of information be provided to the FAA to make this happen, but it's all clearly spelled out in the FAR's.

Tim, I'm one of those who went through the process with my AMD Zodiac SLSA. Brian and Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services shepherded me though all the paperwork (Brian is a DAR and A&P IA).


Yes Stan. You and Andy and Eddie to name a few I know of.]]>
Scooper wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Again, I think if the OP had registered the airplane as S-LSA first, he may have avoided the problem. Several people on this forum have gone through the process of re-registering an S-LSA as an E-LSA. It does appear to require quite a bit of information be provided to the FAA to make this happen, but it's all clearly spelled out in the FAR's.

Tim, I'm one of those who went through the process with my AMD Zodiac SLSA. Brian and Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services shepherded me though all the paperwork (Brian is a DAR and A&P IA).


Yes Stan. You and Andy and Eddie to name a few I know of.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-03T21:07:31-05:00 2018-12-03T21:07:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54097#p54097
Scooper wrote: Does N585NM have "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2" high letters on it and "Light Sport" removed from the fuselage?



I’m not sure of the significance of the last (italicized) part.]]>
Scooper wrote: Does N585NM have "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2" high letters on it and "Light Sport" removed from the fuselage?



I’m not sure of the significance of the last (italicized) part.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T21:34:02-05:00 2018-12-03T21:34:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54098#p54098
FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote: Does N585NM have "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2" high letters on it and "Light Sport" removed from the fuselage?



I’m not sure of the significance of the last (italicized) part.

Eddie, a requirement by the Carpenters when I made the change was to apply the "EXPERIMENTAL" placard and remove the "Light-Sport" decals from the fuselage.

This quote is from the FAA document "Light-Sport Aircraft Airworthiness Certification" dated July 8, 2013:

An SLSA must display the words “LIGHT-SPORT” near each entrance to the cabin, cockpit, or pilot station. This marking must be displayed at a 2-inch minimum to no more than 6-inch maximum height. (Ref. 14 CFR § 45.23(b))

NOTE: When an SLSA certification changes to an ELSA certification, the word “EXPERIMENTAL” must be displayed on the aircraft in lieu of “LIGHT-SPORT.” (Ref. 14 CFR § 45.23(b))


Also, FAA Order 8130.2J (7/21/2017) specifies the inspection required of the airplane by the DAR or FSDO when making the change from SLSA to ELSA:

d. Inspect Aircraft. A general airworthiness inspection is accomplished only after the aircraft is complete in every respect and before the issuance of the experimental airworthiness certificate. Do not perform any fabrication, construction, assembly, testing, manufacturer’s quality inspections, or closing work on the aircraft. During this inspection, the FAA may only request disassembly when a safety hazard is identified that would endanger the general public.
(1) In preparation for the inspection, ensure that plates, access doors, fairings, and cowlings are open or removed to allow inspection.
(2) Verify the aircraft meets § 1.1 as applicable.
(3) Verify the aircraft N-number marks are per part 45. If an aircraft previously held a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category, the “LIGHT-SPORT” mark required by § 45.23(b), must be changed to “EXPERIMENTAL.”
(4) Verify the ID plate meets the requirements of § 45.11, as applicable.
(5) Verify the information on the ID plate is correct, matches the information on FAA Form 8130-6, and is per § 45.13, as applicable. Identification data required by § 45.13(a)(1), (2), and (3) are mandatory. Any other optional data that the manufacturer/builder includes on the ID plate must be in such a manner as not to confuse the mandatory data contents.
(6) For kit-built LSA, verify that the LSA is properly assembled per the manufacturer’s assembly instructions for that aircraft and the applicable FAA-accepted consensus standard.
(7) Verify the following placard is displayed in the aircraft in full view of all occupants: “PASSENGER WARNING—THIS AIRCRAFT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH FEDERAL SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD AIRCRAFT.” This applies to all classes of LSA certificated in experimental purpose for operating LSA.
(8) Verify that installed equipment matches the AOI.
(9) Verify the flight control systems and associated instruments as equipped operate properly and are appropriate for each of the six classes of LSA.
(10) Verify the cockpit instruments are appropriately marked, as specified in the FAA-accepted consensus standard of ASTM, International, (ASTM) for the aircraft class and as found in the aircraft’s AOI, and that placards are installed and placed for easy reference.
(11) Verify that the airspeed indicator marks match the AOI limitations.
(12) Verify the system controls (for example, fuel selector(s) and electrical switches/breakers) are appropriately placed, clearly marked, provide easy access and operation, and function per the manufacturer’s instructions and specification documentation.
(13) Verify airframe emergency parachutes that are ballistic, assisted, or deployable are properly marked and identified. The aircraft must have provisions that provide for clear marking and identification of all explosive devices used in conjunction with ballistic parachutes. Marks indicating the aircraft is equipped with explosive devices must be applied externally and able to be read while standing on the ground. An airworthiness certificate will not be issued before meeting this requirement.
]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
Scooper wrote: Does N585NM have "EXPERIMENTAL" in 2" high letters on it and "Light Sport" removed from the fuselage?



I’m not sure of the significance of the last (italicized) part.

Eddie, a requirement by the Carpenters when I made the change was to apply the "EXPERIMENTAL" placard and remove the "Light-Sport" decals from the fuselage.

This quote is from the FAA document "Light-Sport Aircraft Airworthiness Certification" dated July 8, 2013:

An SLSA must display the words “LIGHT-SPORT” near each entrance to the cabin, cockpit, or pilot station. This marking must be displayed at a 2-inch minimum to no more than 6-inch maximum height. (Ref. 14 CFR § 45.23(b))

NOTE: When an SLSA certification changes to an ELSA certification, the word “EXPERIMENTAL” must be displayed on the aircraft in lieu of “LIGHT-SPORT.” (Ref. 14 CFR § 45.23(b))


Also, FAA Order 8130.2J (7/21/2017) specifies the inspection required of the airplane by the DAR or FSDO when making the change from SLSA to ELSA:

d. Inspect Aircraft. A general airworthiness inspection is accomplished only after the aircraft is complete in every respect and before the issuance of the experimental airworthiness certificate. Do not perform any fabrication, construction, assembly, testing, manufacturer’s quality inspections, or closing work on the aircraft. During this inspection, the FAA may only request disassembly when a safety hazard is identified that would endanger the general public.
(1) In preparation for the inspection, ensure that plates, access doors, fairings, and cowlings are open or removed to allow inspection.
(2) Verify the aircraft meets § 1.1 as applicable.
(3) Verify the aircraft N-number marks are per part 45. If an aircraft previously held a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category, the “LIGHT-SPORT” mark required by § 45.23(b), must be changed to “EXPERIMENTAL.”
(4) Verify the ID plate meets the requirements of § 45.11, as applicable.
(5) Verify the information on the ID plate is correct, matches the information on FAA Form 8130-6, and is per § 45.13, as applicable. Identification data required by § 45.13(a)(1), (2), and (3) are mandatory. Any other optional data that the manufacturer/builder includes on the ID plate must be in such a manner as not to confuse the mandatory data contents.
(6) For kit-built LSA, verify that the LSA is properly assembled per the manufacturer’s assembly instructions for that aircraft and the applicable FAA-accepted consensus standard.
(7) Verify the following placard is displayed in the aircraft in full view of all occupants: “PASSENGER WARNING—THIS AIRCRAFT DOES NOT COMPLY WITH FEDERAL SAFETY REGULATIONS FOR STANDARD AIRCRAFT.” This applies to all classes of LSA certificated in experimental purpose for operating LSA.
(8) Verify that installed equipment matches the AOI.
(9) Verify the flight control systems and associated instruments as equipped operate properly and are appropriate for each of the six classes of LSA.
(10) Verify the cockpit instruments are appropriately marked, as specified in the FAA-accepted consensus standard of ASTM, International, (ASTM) for the aircraft class and as found in the aircraft’s AOI, and that placards are installed and placed for easy reference.
(11) Verify that the airspeed indicator marks match the AOI limitations.
(12) Verify the system controls (for example, fuel selector(s) and electrical switches/breakers) are appropriately placed, clearly marked, provide easy access and operation, and function per the manufacturer’s instructions and specification documentation.
(13) Verify airframe emergency parachutes that are ballistic, assisted, or deployable are properly marked and identified. The aircraft must have provisions that provide for clear marking and identification of all explosive devices used in conjunction with ballistic parachutes. Marks indicating the aircraft is equipped with explosive devices must be applied externally and able to be read while standing on the ground. An airworthiness certificate will not be issued before meeting this requirement.
]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-03T22:02:01-05:00 2018-12-03T22:02:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54099#p54099
My conversion was circa 2009, so predated that 2013 document.

I wonder if I should now remove my LIGHT SPORT decals to stay in accordance with the later guidance.

It all seems illogical - an EXPERIMENTAL Light Sport does not lose its Light Sport designation. It just changes from Special to Experimental. It’s still a Light Sport, so why not flaunt it?]]>

My conversion was circa 2009, so predated that 2013 document.

I wonder if I should now remove my LIGHT SPORT decals to stay in accordance with the later guidance.

It all seems illogical - an EXPERIMENTAL Light Sport does not lose its Light Sport designation. It just changes from Special to Experimental. It’s still a Light Sport, so why not flaunt it?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-03T23:14:19-05:00 2018-12-03T23:14:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54100#p54100
You're absolutely right; even though it's experimental it still meets the Light-Sport category requirements so what's the big deal about calling it what it is?]]>

You're absolutely right; even though it's experimental it still meets the Light-Sport category requirements so what's the big deal about calling it what it is?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-03T23:15:36-05:00 2018-12-03T23:15:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54101#p54101
FastEddieB wrote:Thanks for the detailed response.

My conversion was circa 2009, so predated that 2013 document.

I wonder if I should now remove my LIGHT SPORT decals to stay in accordance with the later guidance.

It all seems illogical - an EXPERIMENTAL Light Sport does not lose its Light Sport designation. It just changes from Special to Experimental. It’s still a Light Sport, so why not flaunt it?


It does change the basis for the issuance of the airworthiness certificate. It also takes in to consideration that the aircraft may have been changed causing it to no longer be in compliance with ASTM standards. Also it might be worth a look at CFR part 45. It has been a while since I looked at it, but I seem to remember the regulations also follow the AC.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:Thanks for the detailed response.

My conversion was circa 2009, so predated that 2013 document.

I wonder if I should now remove my LIGHT SPORT decals to stay in accordance with the later guidance.

It all seems illogical - an EXPERIMENTAL Light Sport does not lose its Light Sport designation. It just changes from Special to Experimental. It’s still a Light Sport, so why not flaunt it?


It does change the basis for the issuance of the airworthiness certificate. It also takes in to consideration that the aircraft may have been changed causing it to no longer be in compliance with ASTM standards. Also it might be worth a look at CFR part 45. It has been a while since I looked at it, but I seem to remember the regulations also follow the AC.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by RickSigler]]> 2018-12-04T08:30:08-05:00 2018-12-04T08:30:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54102#p54102
Have any other members run into this? Thanks.

Rick]]>

Have any other members run into this? Thanks.

Rick]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-04T09:37:34-05:00 2018-12-04T09:37:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54103#p54103 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-04T09:48:35-05:00 2018-12-04T09:48:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54104#p54104 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-04T10:25:05-05:00 2018-12-04T10:25:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54105#p54105 did not ask me to remove the "light sport" decal from the side of the fuselage. I of course was required to ADD a placard to the airplane in 2" letters that read "experimental". I added this inside in the luggage area that is clearly visible to anyone entering the airplane. It is placarded as an "experimental" in two place inside the cockpit per the regulations. It's never been an issue and I currently have no plans to remove the word "light sport" from the fuselage. It is after all still a "light sport".

I've seen it go both ways with various DAR's since I converted mine. I know of 3 other people that have converted since I have and some were asked to remove the "light sport" while others were not. Just goes to show you that the FAA rules can be interpreted differently by different people. :?

Surprisingly my conversion was very easy and took only a few hours and cost $400. All paperwork was filled out by either me or the DAR before I flew to him. $2000 for the conversion is highway robbery. :shock: But if you can afford a new Bristell then you probably could find $2000 in your couch cushions. :mrgreen:

Back to the OP, there clearly is a paperwork mixup somewhere along the line. Given that it was imported in April, registered and then converted in May the paperwork was sitting in a huge pile on someones desk in Oklahoma with the ink still wet on it. Doing the conversion is one pile of paperwork and then ownership transfer is another pile so somewhere along the line things went awry with the FAA, I know they are perfect in every way so that's just not possible and it's all Rick's fault and the burden of proof is on him unfortunately. :mrgreen:]]>
did not ask me to remove the "light sport" decal from the side of the fuselage. I of course was required to ADD a placard to the airplane in 2" letters that read "experimental". I added this inside in the luggage area that is clearly visible to anyone entering the airplane. It is placarded as an "experimental" in two place inside the cockpit per the regulations. It's never been an issue and I currently have no plans to remove the word "light sport" from the fuselage. It is after all still a "light sport".

I've seen it go both ways with various DAR's since I converted mine. I know of 3 other people that have converted since I have and some were asked to remove the "light sport" while others were not. Just goes to show you that the FAA rules can be interpreted differently by different people. :?

Surprisingly my conversion was very easy and took only a few hours and cost $400. All paperwork was filled out by either me or the DAR before I flew to him. $2000 for the conversion is highway robbery. :shock: But if you can afford a new Bristell then you probably could find $2000 in your couch cushions. :mrgreen:

Back to the OP, there clearly is a paperwork mixup somewhere along the line. Given that it was imported in April, registered and then converted in May the paperwork was sitting in a huge pile on someones desk in Oklahoma with the ink still wet on it. Doing the conversion is one pile of paperwork and then ownership transfer is another pile so somewhere along the line things went awry with the FAA, I know they are perfect in every way so that's just not possible and it's all Rick's fault and the burden of proof is on him unfortunately. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-04T10:40:38-05:00 2018-12-04T10:40:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54106#p54106 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-04T11:06:45-05:00 2018-12-04T11:06:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54107#p54107
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.


To be fair, the FAA doesn't always make it easy or understandable. I just helped a friend through the SLSA to ELSA conversion process, and the DAR was just as frustrated as any owner over the nonsensical nature of some of the requirements.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Or simply sell the darn thing and enjoy your life some other way that doesn’t involve dealing with FAA - life is too darn short as it is , do you really want to waste your time dealing with this nonsense ?


Yes, following the law and doing what is required is difficult for some people.


To be fair, the FAA doesn't always make it easy or understandable. I just helped a friend through the SLSA to ELSA conversion process, and the DAR was just as frustrated as any owner over the nonsensical nature of some of the requirements.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-04T11:11:47-05:00 2018-12-04T11:11:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54108#p54108
drseti wrote:I think it's a good idea to remove the "Light Sport" markings when converting to an ELSA, and replace them with "Experimental."


It's not just a good idea, it's a legal requirement. SLSA *must* be marked "Light Sport" visible from each entrance (but no particular font or letter height is specified) , and ELSA *must* be marked "Experimental" in two-inch letters visible from each entrance. If you don't have the correct markings for the airworthiness type and fly the airplane, you are not operating legally.

This gets funky when converting, because you can't remove the Light Sport markings until the inspection is complete, and then the DAR is suposed to see the correct Experimental marking on the airplane before leaving after the inspection. It makes for something of a timing and logistical hassle sometimes.]]>
drseti wrote:I think it's a good idea to remove the "Light Sport" markings when converting to an ELSA, and replace them with "Experimental."


It's not just a good idea, it's a legal requirement. SLSA *must* be marked "Light Sport" visible from each entrance (but no particular font or letter height is specified) , and ELSA *must* be marked "Experimental" in two-inch letters visible from each entrance. If you don't have the correct markings for the airworthiness type and fly the airplane, you are not operating legally.

This gets funky when converting, because you can't remove the Light Sport markings until the inspection is complete, and then the DAR is suposed to see the correct Experimental marking on the airplane before leaving after the inspection. It makes for something of a timing and logistical hassle sometimes.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-04T11:18:59-05:00 2018-12-04T11:18:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54109#p54109
MrMorden wrote:It's not just a good idea, it's a legal requirement.


And conversely, Andy:

"It's not just the law, it's a good idea."
;)]]>
MrMorden wrote:It's not just a good idea, it's a legal requirement.


And conversely, Andy:

"It's not just the law, it's a good idea."
;)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-04T11:19:19-05:00 2018-12-04T11:19:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54110#p54110
ShawnM wrote:I also converted my S-LSA SportCruiser to E-LSA in 2016 here in Florida and the DAR did not ask me to remove the "light sport" decal from the side of the fuselage. I of course was required to ADD a placard to the airplane in 2" letters that read "experimental". I added this inside in the luggage area that is clearly visible to anyone entering the airplane. It is placarded as an "experimental" in two place inside the cockpit per the regulations. It's never been an issue and I currently have no plans to remove the word "light sport" from the fuselage. It is after all still a "light sport".


"Light Sport" is a marking specifically referring to an airplane with a "special" airworthiness certificate, and the "Experimental" lettering is specific to an airworthiness certificate in the experimental category, whether ELSA, EAB, or what have you. Both should not exist on the same aircraft, as they have mutually exclusive meanings.

The only aircraft that have a special airworthiness certificate are SLSA. Legacy airplanes like Cubs and Ercoupes do not, even though they meet the definition of an LSA by the FAA. These airplanes can't display "Light Sport" markings legally, even though they meet the LSA definition. Likewise experimentals may meed the LSA definition, but do not have Special Airworthiness certificates and should not display the Light Sport markings. Those markings are supposed to indicate that an airplane has a special airworthiness certificate, neither certified nor experimental. It's how you can tell Part 43 aircraft from SLSA from Experimental, even though all can be LSA.]]>
ShawnM wrote:I also converted my S-LSA SportCruiser to E-LSA in 2016 here in Florida and the DAR did not ask me to remove the "light sport" decal from the side of the fuselage. I of course was required to ADD a placard to the airplane in 2" letters that read "experimental". I added this inside in the luggage area that is clearly visible to anyone entering the airplane. It is placarded as an "experimental" in two place inside the cockpit per the regulations. It's never been an issue and I currently have no plans to remove the word "light sport" from the fuselage. It is after all still a "light sport".


"Light Sport" is a marking specifically referring to an airplane with a "special" airworthiness certificate, and the "Experimental" lettering is specific to an airworthiness certificate in the experimental category, whether ELSA, EAB, or what have you. Both should not exist on the same aircraft, as they have mutually exclusive meanings.

The only aircraft that have a special airworthiness certificate are SLSA. Legacy airplanes like Cubs and Ercoupes do not, even though they meet the definition of an LSA by the FAA. These airplanes can't display "Light Sport" markings legally, even though they meet the LSA definition. Likewise experimentals may meed the LSA definition, but do not have Special Airworthiness certificates and should not display the Light Sport markings. Those markings are supposed to indicate that an airplane has a special airworthiness certificate, neither certified nor experimental. It's how you can tell Part 43 aircraft from SLSA from Experimental, even though all can be LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-04T11:26:40-05:00 2018-12-04T11:26:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54111#p54111
And, of course, the problem is the FAA. It always is. After all, the FAA is a federal government agency.]]>

And, of course, the problem is the FAA. It always is. After all, the FAA is a federal government agency.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-04T11:31:21-05:00 2018-12-04T11:31:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54112#p54112
MrMorden wrote:"Light Sport" is a marking specifically referring to an airplane with a "special" airworthiness certificate, and the "Experimental" lettering is specific to an airworthiness certificate in the experimental category, whether ELSA, EAB, or what have you.


I don't think that's entirely correct, Andy.

As I understand it, airworthiness certificates come in two flavors and colors: standard (white) and special (red). Standard Category ones are normally issued to certified aircraft (unless converted to Special for some specific purpose). Special will indicate "operating as" which may be Experimental Light Sport, Experimental Exhibition, Experimental Amateur Built. Special Flight Permit, Special Light Sport, etc. You gotta read the fine print on the Special Airworthiness Certificate to get the whole picture.]]>
MrMorden wrote:"Light Sport" is a marking specifically referring to an airplane with a "special" airworthiness certificate, and the "Experimental" lettering is specific to an airworthiness certificate in the experimental category, whether ELSA, EAB, or what have you.


I don't think that's entirely correct, Andy.

As I understand it, airworthiness certificates come in two flavors and colors: standard (white) and special (red). Standard Category ones are normally issued to certified aircraft (unless converted to Special for some specific purpose). Special will indicate "operating as" which may be Experimental Light Sport, Experimental Exhibition, Experimental Amateur Built. Special Flight Permit, Special Light Sport, etc. You gotta read the fine print on the Special Airworthiness Certificate to get the whole picture.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-04T11:48:35-05:00 2018-12-04T11:48:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54113#p54113
MrMorden wrote:
The only aircraft that have a special airworthiness certificate are SLSA.


Any aircraft other than type certified aircraft have special airworthiness certificates.

This is from CFR 21.175, (b) Special airworthiness certificates are primary, restricted, limited, light-sport, and provisional airworthiness certificates, special flight permits, and experimental certificates]]>
MrMorden wrote:
The only aircraft that have a special airworthiness certificate are SLSA.


Any aircraft other than type certified aircraft have special airworthiness certificates.

This is from CFR 21.175, (b) Special airworthiness certificates are primary, restricted, limited, light-sport, and provisional airworthiness certificates, special flight permits, and experimental certificates]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-04T12:08:25-05:00 2018-12-04T12:08:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54114#p54114
drseti wrote:
MrMorden wrote:"Light Sport" is a marking specifically referring to an airplane with a "special" airworthiness certificate, and the "Experimental" lettering is specific to an airworthiness certificate in the experimental category, whether ELSA, EAB, or what have you.


I don't think that's entirely correct, Andy.

As I understand it, airworthiness certificates come in two flavors and colors: standard (white) and special (red). Standard Category ones are normally issued to certified aircraft (unless converted to Special for some specific purpose). Special will indicate "operating as" which may be Experimental Light Sport, Experimental Exhibition, Experimental Amateur Built. Special Flight Permit, Special Light Sport, etc. You gotta read the fine print on the Special Airworthiness Certificate to get the whole picture.


I may be wrong on the AW cert details, I'd have to check and verify. But I'm sure of the markings queation, I've gone through the conversion process twice now (once on my airplane and assisting another owner) and the DAR was specific and adamant about it both times. Light Sport / Experimental markings should be either/or, but never both.]]>
drseti wrote:
MrMorden wrote:"Light Sport" is a marking specifically referring to an airplane with a "special" airworthiness certificate, and the "Experimental" lettering is specific to an airworthiness certificate in the experimental category, whether ELSA, EAB, or what have you.


I don't think that's entirely correct, Andy.

As I understand it, airworthiness certificates come in two flavors and colors: standard (white) and special (red). Standard Category ones are normally issued to certified aircraft (unless converted to Special for some specific purpose). Special will indicate "operating as" which may be Experimental Light Sport, Experimental Exhibition, Experimental Amateur Built. Special Flight Permit, Special Light Sport, etc. You gotta read the fine print on the Special Airworthiness Certificate to get the whole picture.


I may be wrong on the AW cert details, I'd have to check and verify. But I'm sure of the markings queation, I've gone through the conversion process twice now (once on my airplane and assisting another owner) and the DAR was specific and adamant about it both times. Light Sport / Experimental markings should be either/or, but never both.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-04T12:41:32-05:00 2018-12-04T12:41:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54115#p54115
MrMorden wrote: DAR was specific and adamant about it both times. Light Sport / Experimental markings should be either/or, but never both.


I certainly concur about that part.]]>
MrMorden wrote: DAR was specific and adamant about it both times. Light Sport / Experimental markings should be either/or, but never both.


I certainly concur about that part.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-04T18:09:12-05:00 2018-12-04T18:09:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54116#p54116

Another Florida member here just did the conversion so we'll wait for him to chime in and see what his DAR said. I was not part of that conversion nor do I know who the DAR was. Although there are only 3 or so of them in Florida.

My E-LSA aircraft has a "SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE" that is salmon colored and states "experimental" under category/designation. Under "purpose" it reads "operating light sport aircraft-airplane". So my experimental light sport aircraft has a special airworthiness certificate.

As far as placards go, my DAR told me to install all the necessary placards on the plane for "experimental" and put masking tape over them before I flew it to him for inspection. Once he was finished with his inspection I removed the masking tape to reveal the words "experimental" and the placard on the dash for passengers and he was satisfied. Very easy to do if away from your home airport and your hangar.

As for climbing in my plane, the word EXPERIMENTAL is in large 2" letters on a placard that is easily recognizable just as the LIGHT SPORT is on the outside and is easily seen. Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc. No need to hunt down the airworthiness certificate.

We can go back and forth forever on this topic and never get the same answer from various DAR's on the subject. I'm willing to bet money that if you were ramp checked by the FAA tomorrow they wouldn't know the answer to the question either. :mrgreen:]]>


Another Florida member here just did the conversion so we'll wait for him to chime in and see what his DAR said. I was not part of that conversion nor do I know who the DAR was. Although there are only 3 or so of them in Florida.

My E-LSA aircraft has a "SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATE" that is salmon colored and states "experimental" under category/designation. Under "purpose" it reads "operating light sport aircraft-airplane". So my experimental light sport aircraft has a special airworthiness certificate.

As far as placards go, my DAR told me to install all the necessary placards on the plane for "experimental" and put masking tape over them before I flew it to him for inspection. Once he was finished with his inspection I removed the masking tape to reveal the words "experimental" and the placard on the dash for passengers and he was satisfied. Very easy to do if away from your home airport and your hangar.

As for climbing in my plane, the word EXPERIMENTAL is in large 2" letters on a placard that is easily recognizable just as the LIGHT SPORT is on the outside and is easily seen. Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc. No need to hunt down the airworthiness certificate.

We can go back and forth forever on this topic and never get the same answer from various DAR's on the subject. I'm willing to bet money that if you were ramp checked by the FAA tomorrow they wouldn't know the answer to the question either. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-04T18:34:44-05:00 2018-12-04T18:34:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54117#p54117
ShawnM wrote:
Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc...


There’s a Passenger Warning placard that might be more appropriate for E-LSA’S, in that it doesn’t incorrectly reference “amateur built”. The one on my Sky Arrow:

Image]]>
ShawnM wrote:
Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc...


There’s a Passenger Warning placard that might be more appropriate for E-LSA’S, in that it doesn’t incorrectly reference “amateur built”. The one on my Sky Arrow:

Image]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-04T18:36:45-05:00 2018-12-04T18:36:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54118#p54118 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-04T18:40:53-05:00 2018-12-04T19:07:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54119#p54119
§ 45.23 Display of marks; general.
(a) Each operator of an aircraft must display on that aircraft marks consisting of the Roman capital letter “N” (denoting United States registration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Each suffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capital letter.

(b) When marks include only the Roman capital letter “N” and the registration number is displayed on limited, restricted or light-sport category aircraft or experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator must also display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin, cockpit, or pilot station, in letters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches high, the words “limited,” “restricted,” “light-sport,” “experimental,” or “provisional,” as applicable.

[Doc. No. 8093, Amdt. 45-5, 33 FR 450, Jan. 12, 1968, as amended by Amdt. 45-9, 42 FR 41102, Aug. 15, 1977; Amdt. 45-24, 69 FR 44863, July 27, 2004]]]>

§ 45.23 Display of marks; general.
(a) Each operator of an aircraft must display on that aircraft marks consisting of the Roman capital letter “N” (denoting United States registration) followed by the registration number of the aircraft. Each suffix letter used in the marks displayed must also be a Roman capital letter.

(b) When marks include only the Roman capital letter “N” and the registration number is displayed on limited, restricted or light-sport category aircraft or experimental or provisionally certificated aircraft, the operator must also display on that aircraft near each entrance to the cabin, cockpit, or pilot station, in letters not less than 2 inches nor more than 6 inches high, the words “limited,” “restricted,” “light-sport,” “experimental,” or “provisional,” as applicable.

[Doc. No. 8093, Amdt. 45-5, 33 FR 450, Jan. 12, 1968, as amended by Amdt. 45-9, 42 FR 41102, Aug. 15, 1977; Amdt. 45-24, 69 FR 44863, July 27, 2004]]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-04T18:46:22-05:00 2018-12-04T18:46:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54120#p54120
"It exceeds them."]]>

"It exceeds them."]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-04T19:27:05-05:00 2018-12-04T19:27:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54121#p54121
FastEddieB wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc...


There’s a Passenger Warning placard that might be more appropriate for E-LSA’S, in that it doesn’t incorrectly reference “amateur built”. The one on my Sky Arrow:

Image

Eddie, my DAR insisted on exactly the same wording with the change to experimental, and I got the placard from Aircraft Spruce.

Image]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc...


There’s a Passenger Warning placard that might be more appropriate for E-LSA’S, in that it doesn’t incorrectly reference “amateur built”. The one on my Sky Arrow:

Image

Eddie, my DAR insisted on exactly the same wording with the change to experimental, and I got the placard from Aircraft Spruce.

Image]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-04T19:35:11-05:00 2018-12-04T19:35:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54122#p54122
FastEddieB wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc...


There’s a Passenger Warning placard that might be more appropriate for E-LSA’S, in that it doesn’t incorrectly reference “amateur built”. The one on my Sky Arrow:


Thanks Eddie and Stan, I'll certainly change mine to read as your does. I remade all my interior placards myself so everything "matches" on the panel. I'll reprint my passenger warning to read the same. My DAR just referenced the "experimental" verbage sent me a sample of the "amaetur built" one and it was good enough for him. I like yours better for sure.

As for the light sport placard on the outside of my experimental aircraft, it's staying and I'll let you guys sort out your own placards. My DAR didn't ask for it to be removed, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :mrgreen:]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
ShawnM wrote:
Then there is a "occupant warning" placard right in front of the passenger that also states that this aircraft is "ametur built" (which it's technically not) and does not comply with federal safety regulations.....etc....etc...


There’s a Passenger Warning placard that might be more appropriate for E-LSA’S, in that it doesn’t incorrectly reference “amateur built”. The one on my Sky Arrow:


Thanks Eddie and Stan, I'll certainly change mine to read as your does. I remade all my interior placards myself so everything "matches" on the panel. I'll reprint my passenger warning to read the same. My DAR just referenced the "experimental" verbage sent me a sample of the "amaetur built" one and it was good enough for him. I like yours better for sure.

As for the light sport placard on the outside of my experimental aircraft, it's staying and I'll let you guys sort out your own placards. My DAR didn't ask for it to be removed, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-04T19:50:00-05:00 2018-12-04T19:50:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54123#p54123
ShawnM wrote:My DAR didn't ask for it to be removed, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :mrgreen:


Shawn, may I remind you of FAR 91.3(a)? Compliance with all rules is solely the responsibility of the PIC.
Blaming the DAR (or the CFI, DPE, A&P, or anyone else) just won't cut it.]]>
ShawnM wrote:My DAR didn't ask for it to be removed, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :mrgreen:


Shawn, may I remind you of FAR 91.3(a)? Compliance with all rules is solely the responsibility of the PIC.
Blaming the DAR (or the CFI, DPE, A&P, or anyone else) just won't cut it.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-04T19:52:12-05:00 2018-12-04T19:52:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54124#p54124 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-04T20:22:21-05:00 2018-12-04T20:22:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54125#p54125
TimTaylor wrote:Why not simply remove the "light sport" and be in compliance with the FAR's?


Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Why not simply remove the "light sport" and be in compliance with the FAR's?


Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-04T20:24:45-05:00 2018-12-04T20:24:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54126#p54126
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Why not simply remove the "light sport" and be in compliance with the FAR's?


Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)


What a ridiculous response. Are you implying it's OK to ignore FAR's unless you decide there is something in it for you? This attitude gets people killed.]]>
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Why not simply remove the "light sport" and be in compliance with the FAR's?


Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)


What a ridiculous response. Are you implying it's OK to ignore FAR's unless you decide there is something in it for you? This attitude gets people killed.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-04T20:36:30-05:00 2018-12-04T20:36:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54127#p54127
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Why not simply remove the "light sport" and be in compliance with the FAR's?


Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)


What a ridiculous response. Are you implying it's OK to ignore FAR's unless you decide there is something in it for you? This attitude gets people killed.


Not thinking , being stupid and careless gets people killed ... one can always claim that not having a correct placard is a gateway drug to much more dangerous and consequential behavior but then again, that’s only if you are not thinking , being stupid and careless ... and in that case, having every applicable placard in the universe will not make any difference anyway ...]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Why not simply remove the "light sport" and be in compliance with the FAR's?


Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)


What a ridiculous response. Are you implying it's OK to ignore FAR's unless you decide there is something in it for you? This attitude gets people killed.


Not thinking , being stupid and careless gets people killed ... one can always claim that not having a correct placard is a gateway drug to much more dangerous and consequential behavior but then again, that’s only if you are not thinking , being stupid and careless ... and in that case, having every applicable placard in the universe will not make any difference anyway ...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-04T20:41:04-05:00 2018-12-04T20:41:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54128#p54128
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:
Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)


What a ridiculous response. Are you implying it's OK to ignore FAR's unless you decide there is something in it for you? This attitude gets people killed.


Not thinking , being stupid and careless gets people killed ... one can always claim that not having a correct placard is a gateway drug to much more dangerous and consequential behavior but then again, that’s only if you are not thinking , being stupid and careless ... and in that case, having every applicable placard in the universe will not make any difference anyway ...


As a Sport Pilot with less than two years experience, I'm sure you are an expert on all things aviation. I have always, and will always advocate full compliance with all FAR's. This has worked well for me.]]>
Warmi wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:
Yes, why not Shawn ... who knows , after you do comply your plane may actual start flying faster and further and perhaps even stall at significantly lower speeds ... :-)


What a ridiculous response. Are you implying it's OK to ignore FAR's unless you decide there is something in it for you? This attitude gets people killed.


Not thinking , being stupid and careless gets people killed ... one can always claim that not having a correct placard is a gateway drug to much more dangerous and consequential behavior but then again, that’s only if you are not thinking , being stupid and careless ... and in that case, having every applicable placard in the universe will not make any difference anyway ...


As a Sport Pilot with less than two years experience, I'm sure you are an expert on all things aviation. I have always, and will always advocate full compliance with all FAR's. This has worked well for me.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-04T20:51:29-05:00 2018-12-04T21:04:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54129#p54129
I am not claiming that Shawn should not replace his placards but , at the same time I do recognize, that not having a correct placard is not the same as , for instance flying for 6 months without taking your cowling off or something equally stupid ...
He is a smart guy perfectly capable of evaluating his FAR/placard compliance risks correctly and I am equally confident that he won’t jeopardize his safety regardless of how many inconsequential random jokes about FAA placard he happens to read on an Internet forum ...

And btw .. don’t waste your time trying to insult me at this level .... I couldn’t care less if I am only a Sport Pilot or not. I don’t care about flying in anything but fair weather , don’t take any risk , fly only when I feel like ( and I do mean when I feel like - meaning everything must be right including me waking up on the right side of the bed that very morning ) and have absolutely no undue ambitions in terms of certificates, bragging rights etc ..,]]>

I am not claiming that Shawn should not replace his placards but , at the same time I do recognize, that not having a correct placard is not the same as , for instance flying for 6 months without taking your cowling off or something equally stupid ...
He is a smart guy perfectly capable of evaluating his FAR/placard compliance risks correctly and I am equally confident that he won’t jeopardize his safety regardless of how many inconsequential random jokes about FAA placard he happens to read on an Internet forum ...

And btw .. don’t waste your time trying to insult me at this level .... I couldn’t care less if I am only a Sport Pilot or not. I don’t care about flying in anything but fair weather , don’t take any risk , fly only when I feel like ( and I do mean when I feel like - meaning everything must be right including me waking up on the right side of the bed that very morning ) and have absolutely no undue ambitions in terms of certificates, bragging rights etc ..,]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-04T21:00:21-05:00 2018-12-04T21:00:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54130#p54130 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-04T21:23:06-05:00 2018-12-04T21:23:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54131#p54131
You and others who contributed to this thread are absolutely correct about every paragraph and rule and all of that ... and at the same time, none of that will make any difference in terms of the type of flying we are discussing here ... and that’s the joke ...

But yeah , you are right . Nothing really to be gained from not following rules .

It is just a bit funny to me ,since personally I am really very careful and following every darn rule when flying - it makes perfect sense to me since most of these rules are indeed written in blood and I do value my my safety more than any FAA official ever will.
Hell I am the kind of guy who always enters at 45 , tear drops etc ... when I get close to my local airport and if there is any resemblance of chaos , I get the hell out there over the lake to wait it out and then sneak in when everyone else is gone - mostly cause when I do fly I have plenty of time and never need to get anywhere in the first place heheh

So given all that I think it is reasonable and not too out of line , to make a cheap FAA joke now and then ...]]>

You and others who contributed to this thread are absolutely correct about every paragraph and rule and all of that ... and at the same time, none of that will make any difference in terms of the type of flying we are discussing here ... and that’s the joke ...

But yeah , you are right . Nothing really to be gained from not following rules .

It is just a bit funny to me ,since personally I am really very careful and following every darn rule when flying - it makes perfect sense to me since most of these rules are indeed written in blood and I do value my my safety more than any FAA official ever will.
Hell I am the kind of guy who always enters at 45 , tear drops etc ... when I get close to my local airport and if there is any resemblance of chaos , I get the hell out there over the lake to wait it out and then sneak in when everyone else is gone - mostly cause when I do fly I have plenty of time and never need to get anywhere in the first place heheh

So given all that I think it is reasonable and not too out of line , to make a cheap FAA joke now and then ...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by RickSigler]]> 2018-12-05T13:06:44-05:00 2018-12-05T13:06:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54137#p54137
Rick]]>

Rick]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-05T13:43:37-05:00 2018-12-05T13:43:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54138#p54138
I wonder if the issue is limited to SLSAs that have been converted to ELSA or if it applies to all imported SLSAs.]]>

I wonder if the issue is limited to SLSAs that have been converted to ELSA or if it applies to all imported SLSAs.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: FAA Letter :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-05T14:57:54-05:00 2018-12-05T14:57:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5238&p=54139#p54139 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-11-26T10:51:51-05:00 2018-11-26T10:51:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=53971#p53971
Of course the A22 is an LSA]]>

Of course the A22 is an LSA]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-26T16:05:09-05:00 2018-11-26T16:05:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=53974#p53974
Jim Hardin wrote:Can your Maule friend do a Maule takeoff from inside of your hanger? :D


Not with 180 hp!

The Aeroprakr looks pretty nice. Were you able to fly it?


Not yet. Would really like to.]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:Can your Maule friend do a Maule takeoff from inside of your hanger? :D


Not with 180 hp!

The Aeroprakr looks pretty nice. Were you able to fly it?


Not yet. Would really like to.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-03T11:03:09-05:00 2018-12-03T11:03:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=54078#p54078 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-03T13:06:36-05:00 2018-12-03T13:06:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=54081#p54081
MrMorden wrote:I've never seen a Maule trike before...seems weird!


Taylorcraft built a tricycle gear before too, and it looked weird. Back in the day my dad flew a J3 that was on tricycle gear.]]>
MrMorden wrote:I've never seen a Maule trike before...seems weird!


Taylorcraft built a tricycle gear before too, and it looked weird. Back in the day my dad flew a J3 that was on tricycle gear.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-05T05:52:43-05:00 2018-12-05T05:52:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=54132#p54132
3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:I've never seen a Maule trike before...seems weird!


Taylorcraft built a tricycle gear before too, and it looked weird. Back in the day my dad flew a J3 that was on tricycle gear.


Looks pretty good:
images.jpg


Oops wrong pic.
index.jpg


index2.jpg


Close to a Tri Pacer

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3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:I've never seen a Maule trike before...seems weird!


Taylorcraft built a tricycle gear before too, and it looked weird. Back in the day my dad flew a J3 that was on tricycle gear.


Looks pretty good:
images.jpg


Oops wrong pic.
index.jpg


index2.jpg


Close to a Tri Pacer

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<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-05T09:23:57-05:00 2018-12-05T09:23:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=54133#p54133 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Great Sunday Flying/Aeroprakt A32 :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-12-05T17:17:32-05:00 2018-12-05T17:17:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5216&p=54140#p54140
MrMorden wrote:One of my good friends has a 250hp Maule. It's an amazing airplane, though the useful load is surprisingly small and the 17gph full cruise burn rate is pretty painful.


When I sold my Cirrus, I went so far as to visit the Maule factory in Moultrie, GA. I like the plane, but on any given trip it would have burned substantially more fuel than my Cirrus. But the prospect of flying sans medical was strong, leading me to Light Sport. And realistically, I didn’t need the “back country” credos of the Maule.

But now with BasicMed, with the right partner...]]>
MrMorden wrote:One of my good friends has a 250hp Maule. It's an amazing airplane, though the useful load is surprisingly small and the 17gph full cruise burn rate is pretty painful.


When I sold my Cirrus, I went so far as to visit the Maule factory in Moultrie, GA. I like the plane, but on any given trip it would have burned substantially more fuel than my Cirrus. But the prospect of flying sans medical was strong, leading me to Light Sport. And realistically, I didn’t need the “back country” credos of the Maule.

But now with BasicMed, with the right partner...]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-02T13:43:55-05:00 2018-12-02T13:43:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54073#p54073
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<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-12-02T15:25:32-05:00 2018-12-02T15:25:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54074#p54074 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-06T16:53:05-05:00 2018-12-06T16:53:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54143#p54143
1) Applied for registration October 17, 2018.
2) October 24 Letter from FAA Legal Instruments Branch requesting a notarized Affidavit of Ownership...knocked it out in 24 hours.
3) November 8 Letter from FAA Legal Instruments Branch requesting a $5.00 check (the $5.00 check was mailed to them in October with the original application)...knocked it out within 24 hours.
4) November 20 Letter from FAA Legal Instruments Branch requesting the seller name be printed next to the seller signature IAW US DOT, INFORMATION TO AID IN THE REGISTRATION OF U.S. CIVIL AIRCRAFT, SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS, PARAGRAPH 43, SUBPARAGRAPH 3, 43 B. Knocked it out in 10 minutes.
5) Called OK City today, Dec 6, 3:30C to get an update...FAA closes at 3:30C...of course.

I know I should not be surprised by the inefficiency of the bureaucracy machine. But, it just sucks.

DAR will not schedule aircraft inspection (for Airworthiness Certificate) until FAA Registration complete. Dead in the water...awaiting the next FAA request.]]>

1) Applied for registration October 17, 2018.
2) October 24 Letter from FAA Legal Instruments Branch requesting a notarized Affidavit of Ownership...knocked it out in 24 hours.
3) November 8 Letter from FAA Legal Instruments Branch requesting a $5.00 check (the $5.00 check was mailed to them in October with the original application)...knocked it out within 24 hours.
4) November 20 Letter from FAA Legal Instruments Branch requesting the seller name be printed next to the seller signature IAW US DOT, INFORMATION TO AID IN THE REGISTRATION OF U.S. CIVIL AIRCRAFT, SIGNATURE REQUIREMENTS, PARAGRAPH 43, SUBPARAGRAPH 3, 43 B. Knocked it out in 10 minutes.
5) Called OK City today, Dec 6, 3:30C to get an update...FAA closes at 3:30C...of course.

I know I should not be surprised by the inefficiency of the bureaucracy machine. But, it just sucks.

DAR will not schedule aircraft inspection (for Airworthiness Certificate) until FAA Registration complete. Dead in the water...awaiting the next FAA request.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-06T19:11:02-05:00 2018-12-06T19:25:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54144#p54144
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Form/AC_8050-1_5-2017.pdf]]>

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Form/AC_8050-1_5-2017.pdf]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-06T19:24:10-05:00 2018-12-06T19:24:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54145#p54145 www.faa.gov shows it is registered.]]> www.faa.gov shows it is registered.]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-07T00:34:41-05:00 2018-12-07T00:34:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54147#p54147
Yes, TT, I think it is a simple procedure. Midwest Sky Sports and TAF USA handled the paperwork...it is just annoying that the FAA can't catch all of the "errors" upon first review, vs 3 reviews and 3 letters.]]>

Yes, TT, I think it is a simple procedure. Midwest Sky Sports and TAF USA handled the paperwork...it is just annoying that the FAA can't catch all of the "errors" upon first review, vs 3 reviews and 3 letters.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-07T00:50:19-05:00 2018-12-07T00:50:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54148#p54148
This LSA/EAB/EE is confusing...oh, that's right, the massive federal government is involved! I'll try not to get myself started...and don't forget to file your 1040 today!!!!!!! Mine was only 53 pages this year. Yippee.

Cam[/quote][/quote]

I think this explains your frustration. Probably a topic for another forum.]]>

This LSA/EAB/EE is confusing...oh, that's right, the massive federal government is involved! I'll try not to get myself started...and don't forget to file your 1040 today!!!!!!! Mine was only 53 pages this year. Yippee.

Cam[/quote][/quote]

I think this explains your frustration. Probably a topic for another forum.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-12-07T08:02:06-05:00 2018-12-07T08:02:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54149#p54149
cam737 wrote:Hey 3D, it figures I find out from the SportPilotTalk forum guys it is registered! Of course, I type in 289BT and N289BT and it shows nothing...?

Yes, TT, I think it is a simple procedure. Midwest Sky Sports and TAF USA handled the paperwork...it is just annoying that the FAA can't catch all of the "errors" upon first review, vs 3 reviews and 3 letters.


Don’t feel bad Cam. I went to the FSDO to get mt UAS certificate, they examined my paperwork, gave me the Temporary certificate then nothing. Was about to call when I got an email from the same guys you heard from. The FSDO processed the wrong form and I had to submit another and they would then send my certificate. Government, so efficient NOT!]]>
cam737 wrote:Hey 3D, it figures I find out from the SportPilotTalk forum guys it is registered! Of course, I type in 289BT and N289BT and it shows nothing...?

Yes, TT, I think it is a simple procedure. Midwest Sky Sports and TAF USA handled the paperwork...it is just annoying that the FAA can't catch all of the "errors" upon first review, vs 3 reviews and 3 letters.


Don’t feel bad Cam. I went to the FSDO to get mt UAS certificate, they examined my paperwork, gave me the Temporary certificate then nothing. Was about to call when I got an email from the same guys you heard from. The FSDO processed the wrong form and I had to submit another and they would then send my certificate. Government, so efficient NOT!]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-07T10:07:25-05:00 2018-12-07T10:07:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54150#p54150
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Government, so efficient NOT!


In the FAA's defense (I can't believe I'm saying this!) all the FSDOs are overworked and understaffed. But, change is on the horizon. Under the new Designee Management System now being rolled out, DPEs (that's me) will be empowered to perform certain FAA administrative certification functions. This will include, for example, issuing Remote Pilot (UAS) certificates.

< commercial>Since DPEs are independent contractors, we are allowed to charge for our services. However, odds are you're more likely to get it done right if you pay one of us a modest fee, rather than having your Public Servants do it for free.</commercial>]]>
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Government, so efficient NOT!


In the FAA's defense (I can't believe I'm saying this!) all the FSDOs are overworked and understaffed. But, change is on the horizon. Under the new Designee Management System now being rolled out, DPEs (that's me) will be empowered to perform certain FAA administrative certification functions. This will include, for example, issuing Remote Pilot (UAS) certificates.

< commercial>Since DPEs are independent contractors, we are allowed to charge for our services. However, odds are you're more likely to get it done right if you pay one of us a modest fee, rather than having your Public Servants do it for free.</commercial>]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-07T10:13:44-05:00 2018-12-07T10:13:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54151#p54151
http://SportPilotExaminer.US/fees.htm]]>

http://SportPilotExaminer.US/fees.htm]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-07T21:03:32-05:00 2018-12-07T21:03:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54157#p54157
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<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-08T18:30:08-05:00 2018-12-08T18:30:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54161#p54161

If you look close at the registration online there are A LOT of "unknowns" and "nones" on the form. Certainly needs some attention and some updating if you ask me.

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=289BT

When I lived in Orlando I played a regular poker game at a friends house in Celebration off Waterside Drive just around the corner from you. :D]]>


If you look close at the registration online there are A LOT of "unknowns" and "nones" on the form. Certainly needs some attention and some updating if you ask me.

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=289BT

When I lived in Orlando I played a regular poker game at a friends house in Celebration off Waterside Drive just around the corner from you. :D]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-08T18:36:28-05:00 2018-12-08T18:36:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54162#p54162 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-12-08T18:40:31-05:00 2018-12-08T18:40:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54163#p54163
ShawnM wrote:Looking great cam737, almost there. Love the color scheme. :mrgreen:

If you look close at the registration online there are A LOT of "unknowns" and "nones" on the form. Certainly needs some attention and some updating if you ask me.

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=289BT

When I lived in Orlando I played a regular poker game at a friends house in Celebration off Waterside Drive just around the corner from you. :D


Shawn,

You have to give the FAA a few months and it should get straightened out. My Sling showed up the same way almost a month after I took delivery. I have a factory built plane. Several weeks after mine originally posted, it was updated with most of the NONE, like year of Manufacture and engine type filled in.]]>
ShawnM wrote:Looking great cam737, almost there. Love the color scheme. :mrgreen:

If you look close at the registration online there are A LOT of "unknowns" and "nones" on the form. Certainly needs some attention and some updating if you ask me.

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=289BT

When I lived in Orlando I played a regular poker game at a friends house in Celebration off Waterside Drive just around the corner from you. :D


Shawn,

You have to give the FAA a few months and it should get straightened out. My Sling showed up the same way almost a month after I took delivery. I have a factory built plane. Several weeks after mine originally posted, it was updated with most of the NONE, like year of Manufacture and engine type filled in.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-09T10:50:49-05:00 2018-12-09T10:50:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54178#p54178
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Shawn,

You have to give the FAA a few months and it should get straightened out. My Sling showed up the same way almost a month after I took delivery. I have a factory built plane. Several weeks after mine originally posted, it was updated with most of the NONE, like year of Manufacture and engine type filled in.


Oh, I agree. I know it takes them months to catch up to the piles of paperwork they have waiting. It was the same way when I changed my N number. I had my new registration in hand when I left the Orlando FSDO and it took about a month and a half before it was updated online. Same with my S-LSA to E-LSA conversion.]]>
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:Shawn,

You have to give the FAA a few months and it should get straightened out. My Sling showed up the same way almost a month after I took delivery. I have a factory built plane. Several weeks after mine originally posted, it was updated with most of the NONE, like year of Manufacture and engine type filled in.


Oh, I agree. I know it takes them months to catch up to the piles of paperwork they have waiting. It was the same way when I changed my N number. I had my new registration in hand when I left the Orlando FSDO and it took about a month and a half before it was updated online. Same with my S-LSA to E-LSA conversion.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-09T14:10:45-05:00 2018-12-09T14:10:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54183#p54183 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-09T15:29:37-05:00 2018-12-09T15:29:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54184#p54184
Looking at their specs - everything seems similar ( wing spans, dimensions etc ) - but there is something about this plane to make it look more substantial.]]>

Looking at their specs - everything seems similar ( wing spans, dimensions etc ) - but there is something about this plane to make it look more substantial.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: Sling 2 build / Midwest Sky Sports :: Reply by cam737]]> 2018-12-09T16:44:28-05:00 2018-12-09T16:44:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5062&p=54185#p54185 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Author Atrosa]]> 2018-12-14T15:55:44-05:00 2018-12-14T15:55:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54247#p54247
-Tony]]>

-Tony]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-14T16:24:07-05:00 2018-12-14T16:24:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54248#p54248 http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/Useful_Information.htm

On this forum, we're talking about LSA, aircraft that don't exceed 1320 pounds and can be flown with a driver's license as medical and a Sport Pilot certificate or higher. In the most very basic of terms, SLSA are factory built and ELSA are kit built. Some owners choose to convert their SLSA to ELSA (paper work) so they can do their own maintenance and inspections.]]>
http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/Useful_Information.htm

On this forum, we're talking about LSA, aircraft that don't exceed 1320 pounds and can be flown with a driver's license as medical and a Sport Pilot certificate or higher. In the most very basic of terms, SLSA are factory built and ELSA are kit built. Some owners choose to convert their SLSA to ELSA (paper work) so they can do their own maintenance and inspections.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-14T16:53:13-05:00 2018-12-14T16:53:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54249#p54249
(1) SLSA stands for Special Light Sport Aircraft. Factory built under ASTM consensus standards after October 2004. (ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials, an engineering trade association that started out by establishing railroad standards in the 19th Century.)

(2) ELSA is a kit-built plane that conforms exactly to the design and construction standards of a particular SLSA. Alternately, it can be an SLSA that was re-registered as an experimental to allowance properly trained owner to perform his or her own condition inspections.

(3) E-AB is an experimental amateur-built aircraft that is not an ELSA. Some (but not all) comply with LSA requirements, and hence can be flown by Sport Pilots or under Sport Pilot rules.

(4) Then there are the type-certificated aircraft that predate the 2004 LSA rules, but happen to comply with the LSA rules and limitations as they were subsequently written. Most of these are antiques, and can be flown by Sport Pilots even they are certified aircraft and have Standard category airworthiness certificates. EAA calls them SPEA for Sport Pilot Eligible Aircraft (this is not an official FAA designation).]]>

(1) SLSA stands for Special Light Sport Aircraft. Factory built under ASTM consensus standards after October 2004. (ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials, an engineering trade association that started out by establishing railroad standards in the 19th Century.)

(2) ELSA is a kit-built plane that conforms exactly to the design and construction standards of a particular SLSA. Alternately, it can be an SLSA that was re-registered as an experimental to allowance properly trained owner to perform his or her own condition inspections.

(3) E-AB is an experimental amateur-built aircraft that is not an ELSA. Some (but not all) comply with LSA requirements, and hence can be flown by Sport Pilots or under Sport Pilot rules.

(4) Then there are the type-certificated aircraft that predate the 2004 LSA rules, but happen to comply with the LSA rules and limitations as they were subsequently written. Most of these are antiques, and can be flown by Sport Pilots even they are certified aircraft and have Standard category airworthiness certificates. EAA calls them SPEA for Sport Pilot Eligible Aircraft (this is not an official FAA designation).]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-14T17:02:16-05:00 2018-12-14T17:02:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54251#p54251 Furthermore, just because the aircraft is registered as E-LSA, that does not mean the owner/purchaser is required to do the maintenance or condition inspections on it. If he/she so chooses, they can have professional mechanics maintain it, just as if it is an S-LSA.]]> Furthermore, just because the aircraft is registered as E-LSA, that does not mean the owner/purchaser is required to do the maintenance or condition inspections on it. If he/she so chooses, they can have professional mechanics maintain it, just as if it is an S-LSA.]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-14T18:24:40-05:00 2018-12-14T18:24:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54252#p54252
drseti wrote:There are four different types of aircraft that can be flown by Sport Pilots, or anyone else flying under Sport Pilot rules and limitations:


Six types

1. airplanes
2. gliders
3. gyroplanes
4. lighter than air
5. powered parachute
6. weight shift control

Sport pilots can only fly Light Sport Aircraft. The definition of which is found in CFR 1.1

A light sport aircraft can receive an airworthiness certificate by several different methods. How it received its airworthiness certificate determines how it is maintained. The 4 things Paul posted are 4 of the ways a light sport aircraft can receive a airworthiness certificate. There are more than just the 4, Experimental Exhibition and Primary come to mind.

To answer the OP original question,
SLSA are built by a manufacture to ASTM standards and they receive a special airworthiness certificate from the FAA
ELSA can be a kit built copy of a manufactured SLSA, a SLSA converted to ELSA, or a previously flying fat ultralight that was registered and received an airworthiness certificate in the time allotted by the FAA during the transition to sport pilot and light sport aircraft.
EAB is an aircraft that at least 51% was built for the purpose of education or recreation.]]>
drseti wrote:There are four different types of aircraft that can be flown by Sport Pilots, or anyone else flying under Sport Pilot rules and limitations:


Six types

1. airplanes
2. gliders
3. gyroplanes
4. lighter than air
5. powered parachute
6. weight shift control

Sport pilots can only fly Light Sport Aircraft. The definition of which is found in CFR 1.1

A light sport aircraft can receive an airworthiness certificate by several different methods. How it received its airworthiness certificate determines how it is maintained. The 4 things Paul posted are 4 of the ways a light sport aircraft can receive a airworthiness certificate. There are more than just the 4, Experimental Exhibition and Primary come to mind.

To answer the OP original question,
SLSA are built by a manufacture to ASTM standards and they receive a special airworthiness certificate from the FAA
ELSA can be a kit built copy of a manufactured SLSA, a SLSA converted to ELSA, or a previously flying fat ultralight that was registered and received an airworthiness certificate in the time allotted by the FAA during the transition to sport pilot and light sport aircraft.
EAB is an aircraft that at least 51% was built for the purpose of education or recreation.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-14T18:48:57-05:00 2018-12-14T18:48:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54253#p54253
3Dreaming wrote:Six types

1. airplanes
2. gliders
3. gyroplanes
4. lighter than air
5. powered parachute
6. weight shift control



To be precise, Tom, that's six classes. What I listed are four categories. I think "type" means something else altogether (and not what either of us intended). ;)]]>
3Dreaming wrote:Six types

1. airplanes
2. gliders
3. gyroplanes
4. lighter than air
5. powered parachute
6. weight shift control



To be precise, Tom, that's six classes. What I listed are four categories. I think "type" means something else altogether (and not what either of us intended). ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-14T19:24:16-05:00 2018-12-14T19:24:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54254#p54254
Atrosa wrote:Can someone please help explain the difference between the 3 types of aircraft listed in the subject line. The more I research the more I'm confused. Thanks again to all those helping to educate me on this new found passion.

-Tony


I'm sure you're no longer confused. You can't ask a simple question and get a simple answer on this forum.]]>
Atrosa wrote:Can someone please help explain the difference between the 3 types of aircraft listed in the subject line. The more I research the more I'm confused. Thanks again to all those helping to educate me on this new found passion.

-Tony


I'm sure you're no longer confused. You can't ask a simple question and get a simple answer on this forum.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-14T20:38:54-05:00 2018-12-14T20:38:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54255#p54255
TimTaylor wrote:
Atrosa wrote:Can someone please help explain the difference between the 3 types of aircraft listed in the subject line. The more I research the more I'm confused. Thanks again to all those helping to educate me on this new found passion.

-Tony


I'm sure you're no longer confused. You can't ask a simple question and get a simple answer on this forum.


I don't know how my answer to the OP could have been any simpler and still provide an answer to the question.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Atrosa wrote:Can someone please help explain the difference between the 3 types of aircraft listed in the subject line. The more I research the more I'm confused. Thanks again to all those helping to educate me on this new found passion.

-Tony


I'm sure you're no longer confused. You can't ask a simple question and get a simple answer on this forum.


I don't know how my answer to the OP could have been any simpler and still provide an answer to the question.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-14T20:42:47-05:00 2018-12-14T20:42:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54256#p54256
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Six types

1. airplanes
2. gliders
3. gyroplanes
4. lighter than air
5. powered parachute
6. weight shift control



To be precise, Tom, that's six classes. What I listed are four categories. I think "type" means something else altogether (and not what either of us intended). ;)


61.313 separates the different type of aircraft into categories, not classes.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Six types

1. airplanes
2. gliders
3. gyroplanes
4. lighter than air
5. powered parachute
6. weight shift control



To be precise, Tom, that's six classes. What I listed are four categories. I think "type" means something else altogether (and not what either of us intended). ;)


61.313 separates the different type of aircraft into categories, not classes.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-14T20:43:01-05:00 2018-12-14T21:07:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54257#p54257
drseti wrote:There are four different types of aircraft that can be flown by Sport Pilots, or anyone else flying under Sport Pilot rules and limitations:

(1) SLSA stands for Special Light Sport Aircraft. Factory built under ASTM consensus standards after October 2004. (ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials, an engineering trade association that started out by establishing railroad standards in the 19th Century.)

(2) ELSA is a kit-built plane that conforms exactly to the design and construction standards of a particular SLSA. Alternately, it can be an SLSA that was re-registered as an experimental to allowance properly trained owner to perform his or her own condition inspections.

(3) E-AB is an experimental amateur-built aircraft that is not an ELSA. Some (but not all) comply with LSA requirements, and hence can be flown by Sport Pilots or under Sport Pilot rules.

(4) Then there are the type-certificated aircraft that predate the 2004 LSA rules, but happen to comply with the LSA rules and limitations as they were subsequently written. Most of these are antiques, and can be flown by Sport Pilots even they are certified aircraft and have Standard category airworthiness certificates. EAA calls them SPEA for Sport Pilot Eligible Aircraft (this is not an official FAA designation).
]]>

drseti wrote:There are four different types of aircraft that can be flown by Sport Pilots, or anyone else flying under Sport Pilot rules and limitations:

(1) SLSA stands for Special Light Sport Aircraft. Factory built under ASTM consensus standards after October 2004. (ASTM is the American Society for Testing and Materials, an engineering trade association that started out by establishing railroad standards in the 19th Century.)

(2) ELSA is a kit-built plane that conforms exactly to the design and construction standards of a particular SLSA. Alternately, it can be an SLSA that was re-registered as an experimental to allowance properly trained owner to perform his or her own condition inspections.

(3) E-AB is an experimental amateur-built aircraft that is not an ELSA. Some (but not all) comply with LSA requirements, and hence can be flown by Sport Pilots or under Sport Pilot rules.

(4) Then there are the type-certificated aircraft that predate the 2004 LSA rules, but happen to comply with the LSA rules and limitations as they were subsequently written. Most of these are antiques, and can be flown by Sport Pilots even they are certified aircraft and have Standard category airworthiness certificates. EAA calls them SPEA for Sport Pilot Eligible Aircraft (this is not an official FAA designation).
]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-14T20:49:52-05:00 2018-12-14T20:49:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54258#p54258
3Dreaming wrote:I don't know how my answer to the OP could have been any simpler and still provide an answer to the question.

ShawnM wrote:Ok, I guess l'll be the one to address the elephant in the room. Why is it whenever there is a "pissing match" there's always one common denominator?

Maybe it’s because that glass is always half empty.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I don't know how my answer to the OP could have been any simpler and still provide an answer to the question.

ShawnM wrote:Ok, I guess l'll be the one to address the elephant in the room. Why is it whenever there is a "pissing match" there's always one common denominator?

Maybe it’s because that glass is always half empty.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-12-14T22:03:43-05:00 2018-12-14T22:03:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54259#p54259 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-14T22:36:06-05:00 2018-12-14T22:36:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54260#p54260
SLSA require some kind of credentials for all maintenance and inspections. You need at least a sport pilot certificate to perform preventive maintenance. Condition inspections and other maintnenance can be performed by a LSRM, A&P mechanic, or repair station.

ELSA can be worked on by anyone. Condition inspections require a LSRI, LSRM, A&P, or repair station.

EAB can be worked on by anyone. Condition inspections can be performed by a person who holds a repairman certificate for that specific airplane, A&P mechanic, or repair station. The repairman certificate I mentioned can only be issued to one person who was envolved with the original building of the airplane. Even if it meets LSA requirements a LSRI or LSRM can not perform the condition inspection.

Also worth noting is that a Sport Pilot can not perform preventive maintenance on a standard category airplane, even though they can fly it if it meets LSA requirements.]]>

SLSA require some kind of credentials for all maintenance and inspections. You need at least a sport pilot certificate to perform preventive maintenance. Condition inspections and other maintnenance can be performed by a LSRM, A&P mechanic, or repair station.

ELSA can be worked on by anyone. Condition inspections require a LSRI, LSRM, A&P, or repair station.

EAB can be worked on by anyone. Condition inspections can be performed by a person who holds a repairman certificate for that specific airplane, A&P mechanic, or repair station. The repairman certificate I mentioned can only be issued to one person who was envolved with the original building of the airplane. Even if it meets LSA requirements a LSRI or LSRM can not perform the condition inspection.

Also worth noting is that a Sport Pilot can not perform preventive maintenance on a standard category airplane, even though they can fly it if it meets LSA requirements.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-14T23:04:01-05:00 2018-12-14T23:04:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54261#p54261
3Dreaming wrote:61.313 separates the different type of aircraft into categories, not classes.


Yes, but FAA also talks about different LSA categories.

Light-sport Aircraft Category

A Light-sport Aircraft (LSA) category special airworthiness certificate is issued to operate an aircraft that:
Has not been previously issued an airworthiness certificate or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by the U.S. or a foreign civil aviation authority,
Is in a condition for safe operation,
Was built and tested to the applicable consensus standards by the aircraft’s manufacturer, and
Possesses the manufacturer’s statement of compliance.
Aircraft classes meeting the definition of Light Sport Aircraft contained in 14 CFR 1.1 that are eligible for LSA category special airworthiness certificates are:
Airplanes,
Gliders,
Powered parachutes,
Weight-shift-control aircraft (commonly called trikes), and
Lighter-than-air aircraft (balloons and airships) .


Reference: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/light_sport/]]>
3Dreaming wrote:61.313 separates the different type of aircraft into categories, not classes.


Yes, but FAA also talks about different LSA categories.

Light-sport Aircraft Category

A Light-sport Aircraft (LSA) category special airworthiness certificate is issued to operate an aircraft that:
Has not been previously issued an airworthiness certificate or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by the U.S. or a foreign civil aviation authority,
Is in a condition for safe operation,
Was built and tested to the applicable consensus standards by the aircraft’s manufacturer, and
Possesses the manufacturer’s statement of compliance.
Aircraft classes meeting the definition of Light Sport Aircraft contained in 14 CFR 1.1 that are eligible for LSA category special airworthiness certificates are:
Airplanes,
Gliders,
Powered parachutes,
Weight-shift-control aircraft (commonly called trikes), and
Lighter-than-air aircraft (balloons and airships) .


Reference: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/light_sport/]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-14T23:47:50-05:00 2018-12-14T23:47:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54262#p54262
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:61.313 separates the different type of aircraft into categories, not classes.


Yes, but FAA also talks about different LSA categories.

Light-sport Aircraft Category

A Light-sport Aircraft (LSA) category special airworthiness certificate is issued to operate an aircraft that:
Has not been previously issued an airworthiness certificate or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by the U.S. or a foreign civil aviation authority,
Is in a condition for safe operation,
Was built and tested to the applicable consensus standards by the aircraft’s manufacturer, and
Possesses the manufacturer’s statement of compliance.
Aircraft classes meeting the definition of Light Sport Aircraft contained in 14 CFR 1.1 that are eligible for LSA category special airworthiness certificates are:
Airplanes,
Gliders,
Powered parachutes,
Weight-shift-control aircraft (commonly called trikes), and
Lighter-than-air aircraft (balloons and airships) .


Reference: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/light_sport/


Since you said "a sport pilot can only fly" I thought we were talking about pilot privileges. What I said pertains to pilot privileges. You are trying to make what you said right by going to aircraft certification. Category and class have always had different meanings between the two.]]>
drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:61.313 separates the different type of aircraft into categories, not classes.


Yes, but FAA also talks about different LSA categories.

Light-sport Aircraft Category

A Light-sport Aircraft (LSA) category special airworthiness certificate is issued to operate an aircraft that:
Has not been previously issued an airworthiness certificate or an equivalent airworthiness certificate issued by the U.S. or a foreign civil aviation authority,
Is in a condition for safe operation,
Was built and tested to the applicable consensus standards by the aircraft’s manufacturer, and
Possesses the manufacturer’s statement of compliance.
Aircraft classes meeting the definition of Light Sport Aircraft contained in 14 CFR 1.1 that are eligible for LSA category special airworthiness certificates are:
Airplanes,
Gliders,
Powered parachutes,
Weight-shift-control aircraft (commonly called trikes), and
Lighter-than-air aircraft (balloons and airships) .


Reference: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/light_sport/


Since you said "a sport pilot can only fly" I thought we were talking about pilot privileges. What I said pertains to pilot privileges. You are trying to make what you said right by going to aircraft certification. Category and class have always had different meanings between the two.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-12-14T23:52:25-05:00 2018-12-14T23:52:25-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54263#p54263 http://www.flylightning.net/miscellaneous.html say LSA compliant but in the description it says EAB. Does that mean it was 51% built by "Joe Smoe" but he reduced the envelop to LSA limitations?

If I were to buy this I assume I can use it as an LSA.

Man this website/affliction is going to cost me $100,000. I'm fairly sure illicit drug habits cost less. Somebody talk me out of this...... I need an intervention.]]>
http://www.flylightning.net/miscellaneous.html say LSA compliant but in the description it says EAB. Does that mean it was 51% built by "Joe Smoe" but he reduced the envelop to LSA limitations?

If I were to buy this I assume I can use it as an LSA.

Man this website/affliction is going to cost me $100,000. I'm fairly sure illicit drug habits cost less. Somebody talk me out of this...... I need an intervention.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-15T00:04:46-05:00 2018-12-15T00:17:50-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54264#p54264 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-15T00:15:12-05:00 2018-12-15T00:15:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54265#p54265
Atrosa wrote:OK so this plane http://www.flylightning.net/miscellaneous.html say LSA compliant but in the description it says EAB. Does that mean it was 51% built by "Joe Smoe" but he reduced the envelop to LSA limitations?

If I were to buy this I assume I can use it as an LSA.

Man this website/affliction is going to cost me $100,000. I'm fairly sure illicit drug habits cost less. Somebody talk me out of this...... I need an intervention.


Not $100K, just $59,900. And those illicit drug habits are nowhere near as much fun. :mrgreen: (I’m just guessing as I’ve never had an illicit drug habit, maybe I’m wrong)

It is an EAB built by “Joe Smoe” that meets the LSA guidelines and can be flown as LSA. You can do regular maintenance on it but not the annual inspection since you didn’t build it. You’ll need an A&P for the annuals.

The Lightning can be “built” one of two ways, LSA compliant or not. There are several options for this plane when building and the ad reads the builder built it to comply with LSA guidelines. So yes it can be flown as a LSA with a sport pilot rating.]]>
Atrosa wrote:OK so this plane http://www.flylightning.net/miscellaneous.html say LSA compliant but in the description it says EAB. Does that mean it was 51% built by "Joe Smoe" but he reduced the envelop to LSA limitations?

If I were to buy this I assume I can use it as an LSA.

Man this website/affliction is going to cost me $100,000. I'm fairly sure illicit drug habits cost less. Somebody talk me out of this...... I need an intervention.


Not $100K, just $59,900. And those illicit drug habits are nowhere near as much fun. :mrgreen: (I’m just guessing as I’ve never had an illicit drug habit, maybe I’m wrong)

It is an EAB built by “Joe Smoe” that meets the LSA guidelines and can be flown as LSA. You can do regular maintenance on it but not the annual inspection since you didn’t build it. You’ll need an A&P for the annuals.

The Lightning can be “built” one of two ways, LSA compliant or not. There are several options for this plane when building and the ad reads the builder built it to comply with LSA guidelines. So yes it can be flown as a LSA with a sport pilot rating.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-12-15T06:39:18-05:00 2018-12-15T06:39:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54266#p54266
LOL

I often lament - "Why oh why wasn't I born rich instead of so good lookin' ?"]]>

LOL

I often lament - "Why oh why wasn't I born rich instead of so good lookin' ?"]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-15T09:15:23-05:00 2018-12-15T09:15:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54267#p54267 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-12-15T10:51:26-05:00 2018-12-15T10:51:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54268#p54268
So one of the flight school I'm looking into doesnt have an LSA and im considering letting the school use whatever i buy for rental.... I know entirely a different post subject so i don't want to derail this thread because it is a wealth of information. I will setup another thread if we all agree on keeping this thread on subject?]]>

So one of the flight school I'm looking into doesnt have an LSA and im considering letting the school use whatever i buy for rental.... I know entirely a different post subject so i don't want to derail this thread because it is a wealth of information. I will setup another thread if we all agree on keeping this thread on subject?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-15T11:40:37-05:00 2018-12-15T11:40:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54269#p54269
Atrosa wrote: I will setup another thread if we all agree on keeping this thread on subject?


Fair enough]]>
Atrosa wrote: I will setup another thread if we all agree on keeping this thread on subject?


Fair enough]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-15T13:38:30-05:00 2018-12-15T13:38:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54270#p54270
One has to review the paperwork to ensure they comply.]]>

One has to review the paperwork to ensure they comply.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: EAB vs E-LSA vs S-LSA :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-15T16:15:28-05:00 2018-12-15T16:15:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5243&p=54272#p54272
smutny wrote:The only thing I would add to the conversation here is that one cannot take for sale adverts as gospel. Since there is a lot of confusion of what constitutes a LSA, often I see folks selling airplanes claiming they are LSA when they are not.

One has to review the paperwork to ensure they comply.


For some of the older airplanes you need to take a real close look. I know someone with a Taylorcraft that seeming was LSA. The previous owner was a sport pilot flying it as a LSA. The new owner mentioned that it had a Beech Roby propeller once upon a time. I don't think he even knew what a Beech Roby prop was. Because it had that prop some 50+ years ago it could not be a LSA.]]>
smutny wrote:The only thing I would add to the conversation here is that one cannot take for sale adverts as gospel. Since there is a lot of confusion of what constitutes a LSA, often I see folks selling airplanes claiming they are LSA when they are not.

One has to review the paperwork to ensure they comply.


For some of the older airplanes you need to take a real close look. I know someone with a Taylorcraft that seeming was LSA. The previous owner was a sport pilot flying it as a LSA. The new owner mentioned that it had a Beech Roby propeller once upon a time. I don't think he even knew what a Beech Roby prop was. Because it had that prop some 50+ years ago it could not be a LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: what can I use for a rental plane :: Author Atrosa]]> 2018-12-16T00:35:32-05:00 2018-12-16T00:35:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54273#p54273
Of the 3 I know of which may I rent out:
S-LSA: I kinda think this one is an obvious yes.
E-LSA: ?
EAB that meets the limitations of an LSA: ?

And for bonus points, how is the maintenance handled on each once used as a rental?]]>

Of the 3 I know of which may I rent out:
S-LSA: I kinda think this one is an obvious yes.
E-LSA: ?
EAB that meets the limitations of an LSA: ?

And for bonus points, how is the maintenance handled on each once used as a rental?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-12-16T01:45:44-05:00 2018-12-16T01:45:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54274#p54274 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-16T10:52:17-05:00 2018-12-16T10:52:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54275#p54275
Having done 1,000 plus hours of flight instruction in LSA, with most of it in Flight Design aircraft, I would say get the simplest LSA you can get. You don't need a fire breathing triple glass panel for flight training. Speed doesn't matter, because it is hours that you need, not distance flown. Look for good factory support, and parts availability. The more rugged the airplane the better. Also watch for useful load. Many of the LSA become limited with instructor, student, and fuel.]]>

Having done 1,000 plus hours of flight instruction in LSA, with most of it in Flight Design aircraft, I would say get the simplest LSA you can get. You don't need a fire breathing triple glass panel for flight training. Speed doesn't matter, because it is hours that you need, not distance flown. Look for good factory support, and parts availability. The more rugged the airplane the better. Also watch for useful load. Many of the LSA become limited with instructor, student, and fuel.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-16T11:33:09-05:00 2018-12-16T11:33:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54276#p54276
I have seen Experimental-Exhibition and Experimental-Amateur Built get a Letter of Authorization from thier FSDO to provide training if they filled a specific niche. In those cases they were a Sukhoi SU-29 and Pitts Model 12 that were used for aerobatic training.

The aforementioned NRPM that will ease the path of ELSA to get a similar LOA is still a ways off. So right now the fastest solution is SLSA.]]>

I have seen Experimental-Exhibition and Experimental-Amateur Built get a Letter of Authorization from thier FSDO to provide training if they filled a specific niche. In those cases they were a Sukhoi SU-29 and Pitts Model 12 that were used for aerobatic training.

The aforementioned NRPM that will ease the path of ELSA to get a similar LOA is still a ways off. So right now the fastest solution is SLSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Otto]]> 2018-12-16T11:34:39-05:00 2018-12-16T11:34:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54277#p54277 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-16T13:07:42-05:00 2018-12-16T13:07:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54278#p54278
Make sure you understand the potential liability issues. As owner, even if you do an LLC, you can be held liable if anyone gets killed in the airplane or on the ground. I would never enter into such a situation. Of course, that's why you have insurance, but you can never have enough insurance to protect yourself in all situations.

For, instance, a young doctor gets his Sport Pilot certificate and takes his doctor friend for a ride. They go out and buzz their hospital and crash killing themselves and several on the ground. Your life, as you know it, is over. At least that's a possibility, because you never know what a jury will decide and award. I have nothing against doctors, but juries will take into account their lifetime earning potential in awarding damages to the widows.

Someone will say that this is a "glass half-empty" viewpoint, but it is reality. It's also why you should think twice about who you take for a ride in your airplane.

EDIT: I will also add, do you really want new students learning to land in your LSA? Some of these have fragile landing gear, especially the nose wheel. A collapsed nose gear will likely result in an engine tear down. Obviously, I'm not a fan of renting out your aircraft unless you're in the airplane rental, flight training business. I would rather buy what you can afford to own and fly yourself.

PS: Rental aircraft require 100 hour inspections in addition to annual inspections.]]>

Make sure you understand the potential liability issues. As owner, even if you do an LLC, you can be held liable if anyone gets killed in the airplane or on the ground. I would never enter into such a situation. Of course, that's why you have insurance, but you can never have enough insurance to protect yourself in all situations.

For, instance, a young doctor gets his Sport Pilot certificate and takes his doctor friend for a ride. They go out and buzz their hospital and crash killing themselves and several on the ground. Your life, as you know it, is over. At least that's a possibility, because you never know what a jury will decide and award. I have nothing against doctors, but juries will take into account their lifetime earning potential in awarding damages to the widows.

Someone will say that this is a "glass half-empty" viewpoint, but it is reality. It's also why you should think twice about who you take for a ride in your airplane.

EDIT: I will also add, do you really want new students learning to land in your LSA? Some of these have fragile landing gear, especially the nose wheel. A collapsed nose gear will likely result in an engine tear down. Obviously, I'm not a fan of renting out your aircraft unless you're in the airplane rental, flight training business. I would rather buy what you can afford to own and fly yourself.

PS: Rental aircraft require 100 hour inspections in addition to annual inspections.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Type47]]> 2018-12-16T14:09:14-05:00 2018-12-16T14:29:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54279#p54279 Most of us rented airplanes for all or most of our training. Most training aircraft are 50 years old. Still flying. Havn't killed anyone.
Flight schools are in desperate need of rental light sport aircraft.
Run your numbers.
Purchase a used solid aircraft such as the Tecnam P92 I own.
My airplane has over 2000 hours of student flying since 2006.
It is in excellent condition.
If everyone was scared of going into business, there would be no businesses.]]>
Most of us rented airplanes for all or most of our training. Most training aircraft are 50 years old. Still flying. Havn't killed anyone.
Flight schools are in desperate need of rental light sport aircraft.
Run your numbers.
Purchase a used solid aircraft such as the Tecnam P92 I own.
My airplane has over 2000 hours of student flying since 2006.
It is in excellent condition.
If everyone was scared of going into business, there would be no businesses.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-16T14:15:58-05:00 2018-12-16T14:15:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54280#p54280
We have had several fatal accidents at my airport in the last couple years, including the CFI who checked me out in a SkyCatcher. It happens more often than you might think. The SkyCatcher I almost bought 2 years ago was totaled last month by a licensed Sport Pilot.

And yes, you can stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything. My point is be prudent and evaluate all the angles, pro and con.]]>

We have had several fatal accidents at my airport in the last couple years, including the CFI who checked me out in a SkyCatcher. It happens more often than you might think. The SkyCatcher I almost bought 2 years ago was totaled last month by a licensed Sport Pilot.

And yes, you can stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything. My point is be prudent and evaluate all the angles, pro and con.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Type47]]> 2018-12-16T15:28:38-05:00 2018-12-16T15:28:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54281#p54281
TimTaylor wrote:
And yes, you can stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything. My point is be prudent and evaluate all the angles, pro and con.


Who was advocating that he should “stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything”?
Wasn’t the Op being prudent and attempting to evaluate all angles by posting to this forum?]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
And yes, you can stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything. My point is be prudent and evaluate all the angles, pro and con.


Who was advocating that he should “stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything”?
Wasn’t the Op being prudent and attempting to evaluate all angles by posting to this forum?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-16T15:35:09-05:00 2018-12-16T15:35:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54282#p54282 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-16T15:36:10-05:00 2018-12-16T15:36:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54283#p54283
Type47 wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
And yes, you can stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything. My point is be prudent and evaluate all the angles, pro and con.


Who was advocating that he should “stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything”?
Wasn’t the Op being prudent and attempting to evaluate all angles by posting to this forum?


I simply advised him to consider the potential risk, and pointed out what they might be. You seem to be saying to ignore the risk.

"If everyone was scared of going into business, there would be no businesses."

Not every "potential business" is a good idea. What is the EMV of renting out an LSA? Are the benefits worth the risk of a "worse case scenario?" To me, they are not. I have much more to lose than the small benefits would ever justify. I have owned 3 airplanes and never had any desire to rent them out.

This is an opinion I should be able to express here.]]>
Type47 wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
And yes, you can stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything. My point is be prudent and evaluate all the angles, pro and con.


Who was advocating that he should “stick your head in the sand and justify almost anything”?
Wasn’t the Op being prudent and attempting to evaluate all angles by posting to this forum?


I simply advised him to consider the potential risk, and pointed out what they might be. You seem to be saying to ignore the risk.

"If everyone was scared of going into business, there would be no businesses."

Not every "potential business" is a good idea. What is the EMV of renting out an LSA? Are the benefits worth the risk of a "worse case scenario?" To me, they are not. I have much more to lose than the small benefits would ever justify. I have owned 3 airplanes and never had any desire to rent them out.

This is an opinion I should be able to express here.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Type47]]> 2018-12-16T16:40:26-05:00 2018-12-16T16:40:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54284#p54284 Thank God some people think it is worth the risk or many here would not be flying.]]> Thank God some people think it is worth the risk or many here would not be flying.]]> <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-16T16:42:11-05:00 2018-12-16T16:42:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54285#p54285
TimTaylor wrote:I have never seen a lease-back financial analysis. Maybe someone here has one they can share with you. After you cover your variable cost including fuel, oil, maintenance (planned and repairs), engine hours, aircraft wear and tear, FBO fees and profit, etc., is there much left to apply toward your fixed cost? Of course, you would get the tax benefit of writing off some of your expenses and depreciation. However, as you know, the depreciation gets washed out when you sell the airplane.

I failed to mention insurance as one of your variable expenses. It might be the largest. It's variable because if you don't rent your aircraft it will be much less than if you do rent it out, so in that regard, it's a variable expense.

EDIT: And another risk I failed to mention is that renters may not take as much care of your airplane as you would. For instance, would they over-rev the engine or allow it to become over-heated? Would they tell you if they made a hard landing? Probably not. These are all factors to consider if you plan to rent out your airplane.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I have never seen a lease-back financial analysis. Maybe someone here has one they can share with you. After you cover your variable cost including fuel, oil, maintenance (planned and repairs), engine hours, aircraft wear and tear, FBO fees and profit, etc., is there much left to apply toward your fixed cost? Of course, you would get the tax benefit of writing off some of your expenses and depreciation. However, as you know, the depreciation gets washed out when you sell the airplane.

I failed to mention insurance as one of your variable expenses. It might be the largest. It's variable because if you don't rent your aircraft it will be much less than if you do rent it out, so in that regard, it's a variable expense.

EDIT: And another risk I failed to mention is that renters may not take as much care of your airplane as you would. For instance, would they over-rev the engine or allow it to become over-heated? Would they tell you if they made a hard landing? Probably not. These are all factors to consider if you plan to rent out your airplane.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-16T19:57:32-05:00 2018-12-16T19:57:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54286#p54286
And, as has been indicated above, insurance is indeed my largest single operating expense - slightly more than consumables, and almost twice as much as office and hangar rent.]]>

And, as has been indicated above, insurance is indeed my largest single operating expense - slightly more than consumables, and almost twice as much as office and hangar rent.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-16T23:08:43-05:00 2018-12-16T23:08:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54287#p54287
drseti wrote:My approach is not foolproof, but it does minimize risk. I will only rent my plane to my own graduates. And, I will only graduate those students to whom I would be comfortable renting my plane...

And, as has been indicated above, insurance is indeed my largest single operating expense - slightly more than consumables, and almost twice as much as office and hangar rent.

Paul,

What is your formula for a successful aviation enterprise?]]>
drseti wrote:My approach is not foolproof, but it does minimize risk. I will only rent my plane to my own graduates. And, I will only graduate those students to whom I would be comfortable renting my plane...

And, as has been indicated above, insurance is indeed my largest single operating expense - slightly more than consumables, and almost twice as much as office and hangar rent.

Paul,

What is your formula for a successful aviation enterprise?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-16T23:16:21-05:00 2018-12-16T23:16:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54288#p54288
Wm.Ince wrote:Paul,

What is your formula for a successful aviation enterprise?


It's very simple, Bill. You decide a priori how much money you want to lose. When you achieve that goal, you quit. ;)]]>
Wm.Ince wrote:Paul,

What is your formula for a successful aviation enterprise?


It's very simple, Bill. You decide a priori how much money you want to lose. When you achieve that goal, you quit. ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-16T23:38:05-05:00 2018-12-16T23:38:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54289#p54289
drseti wrote:
Wm.Ince wrote:Paul,
What is your formula for a successful aviation enterprise?

It's very simple, Bill. You decide a priori how much money you want to lose. When you achieve that goal, you quit. ;)

:D

Guess you’re not there yet, eh?]]>
drseti wrote:
Wm.Ince wrote:Paul,
What is your formula for a successful aviation enterprise?

It's very simple, Bill. You decide a priori how much money you want to lose. When you achieve that goal, you quit. ;)

:D

Guess you’re not there yet, eh?]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-16T23:45:29-05:00 2018-12-16T23:45:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54290#p54290
Wm.Ince wrote:Guess you’re not there yet, eh?


Nope, still working on it! ;)

For a more detailed answer, see this flowchart:

http://avsport.org/graphics/flight_school.pdf]]>
Wm.Ince wrote:Guess you’re not there yet, eh?


Nope, still working on it! ;)

For a more detailed answer, see this flowchart:

http://avsport.org/graphics/flight_school.pdf]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-16T23:49:48-05:00 2018-12-16T23:49:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54291#p54291 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-12-17T00:37:14-05:00 2018-12-17T00:37:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54292#p54292
drseti wrote:And for a totally frank answer to your original question, Bill, standby for a couple of weeks. As soon as my 2018 Annual Report is completed, I'll post a link to it here.

That should be interesting.]]>
drseti wrote:And for a totally frank answer to your original question, Bill, standby for a couple of weeks. As soon as my 2018 Annual Report is completed, I'll post a link to it here.

That should be interesting.]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-12-17T16:13:51-05:00 2018-12-17T16:13:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54293#p54293 <![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-17T16:43:37-05:00 2018-12-17T16:43:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54294#p54294
Atrosa wrote:Im fully aware this is not a get rich quick scheme.... Just want to male sure it is not a get poor quick scheme.


It's more like a get poor slowly scheme. :)

As an accountant in my day job nothing scares me more than uncertainty. Knowledge reduces uncertainty and in my current state... lets say I'm very uncertain.


As an accountant, you will appreciate that the higher the marginal tax rate your income puts you in, the more beneficial an aircraft leaseback arrangement can be. But IMHO, unless you need (and can benefit from) a tax shelter, it probably makes very little sense.

That said, I do have some experience with this matter. You can see a sample leaseback contract at:

https://www.avsport.org/docs/leaseback.pdf]]>
Atrosa wrote:Im fully aware this is not a get rich quick scheme.... Just want to male sure it is not a get poor quick scheme.


It's more like a get poor slowly scheme. :)

As an accountant in my day job nothing scares me more than uncertainty. Knowledge reduces uncertainty and in my current state... lets say I'm very uncertain.


As an accountant, you will appreciate that the higher the marginal tax rate your income puts you in, the more beneficial an aircraft leaseback arrangement can be. But IMHO, unless you need (and can benefit from) a tax shelter, it probably makes very little sense.

That said, I do have some experience with this matter. You can see a sample leaseback contract at:

https://www.avsport.org/docs/leaseback.pdf]]>
<![CDATA[Light Sport Aircraft :: Re: what can I use for a rental plane :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-17T17:19:58-05:00 2018-12-17T17:19:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5244&p=54295#p54295
Atrosa wrote:Im fully aware this is not a get rich quick scheme.... Just want to male sure it is not a get poor quick scheme. If i can reduce the price of a 60k plane to 30k then im in. As an accountant in my day job nothing scares me more than uncertainty. Knowledge reduces uncertainty and in my current state... lets say I'm very uncertain.

A $60,000 airplane will cost you $60,000 regardless. It's the monthly operating cost you would hope to subsidize by renting out your airplane. I have considered doing a lease-back of a Cessna SkyCatcher but concluded I'm not willing to take on the risk factor.

Another option you might want to consider is a partnership or club situation. In that case, you can get someone to share in the $60,000 purchase price and can set your own pilot requirements. I have been in two aircraft partnerships and one beach condo partnership. All of them worked exceedingly well. The key, of course, is to know your partner(s) and draw up a detailed agreement before hand.

I am not an accountant, but have an MBA in Finance from Wisconsin. I too dislike uncertainty and prefer to minimize risk. One thing I am convinced of is you are better off renting vs owning unless your flying budget is $1,000 per month or more. Of course, if you can't find an airplane to rent, that changes that equation.]]>
Atrosa wrote:Im fully aware this is not a get rich quick scheme.... Just want to male sure it is not a get poor quick scheme. If i can reduce the price of a 60k plane to 30k then im in. As an accountant in my day job nothing scares me more than uncertainty. Knowledge reduces uncertainty and in my current state... lets say I'm very uncertain.

A $60,000 airplane will cost you $60,000 regardless. It's the monthly operating cost you would hope to subsidize by renting out your airplane. I have considered doing a lease-back of a Cessna SkyCatcher but concluded I'm not willing to take on the risk factor.

Another option you might want to consider is a partnership or club situation. In that case, you can get someone to share in the $60,000 purchase price and can set your own pilot requirements. I have been in two aircraft partnerships and one beach condo partnership. All of them worked exceedingly well. The key, of course, is to know your partner(s) and draw up a detailed agreement before hand.

I am not an accountant, but have an MBA in Finance from Wisconsin. I too dislike uncertainty and prefer to minimize risk. One thing I am convinced of is you are better off renting vs owning unless your flying budget is $1,000 per month or more. Of course, if you can't find an airplane to rent, that changes that equation.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: How to Get Back in the Game...PPL to LSA? :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-11-19T13:41:09-05:00 2018-11-19T13:41:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5219&p=53880#p53880
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:our only restrictions flying as a Sport Pilot will be your limit to under 10k feet and flying LSA’s. Good Luck.


And Day VFR only.]]>
Sling 2 Pilot wrote:our only restrictions flying as a Sport Pilot will be your limit to under 10k feet and flying LSA’s. Good Luck.


And Day VFR only.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: How to Get Back in the Game...PPL to LSA? :: Reply by FlyAgain]]> 2018-11-21T14:13:59-05:00 2018-11-21T14:13:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5219&p=53930#p53930 <![CDATA[Training :: Experimental for training? :: Author Atrosa]]> 2018-11-21T08:40:24-05:00 2018-11-21T08:40:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53915#p53915
I tried to look it up myself under FAR 61.51 and could not find reference to it, so here is my question:

Can I use an exerimental aircraft (LSA) to get my hours towards my sport pilot license?]]>

I tried to look it up myself under FAR 61.51 and could not find reference to it, so here is my question:

Can I use an exerimental aircraft (LSA) to get my hours towards my sport pilot license?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T09:20:47-05:00 2018-11-21T09:20:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53917#p53917
At the moment, one of my students owns an E-AB Zenith CH601 in which he is finishing up his training, and another just acquired a KitFox to which he will be transitioning shortly - so yes, it's possible.]]>

At the moment, one of my students owns an E-AB Zenith CH601 in which he is finishing up his training, and another just acquired a KitFox to which he will be transitioning shortly - so yes, it's possible.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T09:23:14-05:00 2018-11-21T09:23:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53918#p53918 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by rsteele]]> 2018-11-21T10:14:58-05:00 2018-11-21T10:14:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53919#p53919
drseti wrote:You can certainly use an experimental aircraft (either ELSA or E-AB) to earn your SP rating, as long as it conforms to the restrictions that define LSA in FAR 1.1. At this point, experimentals can't be rented out by flight schools, and CFIs can't use them to provide instruction for hire. There is an NPRM to change that, but the process is slow, so don't hold your breath.

At the moment, one of my students owns an E-AB Zenith CH601 in which he is finishing up his training, and another just acquired a KitFox to which he will be transitioning shortly - so yes, it's possible.


I may be wrong, but I think the statement "CFIs can't use them to provide instruction for hire" is a bit misleading. It sounds like a CFI can't charge for instruction in an experimental. Isn't there is an exception if the plane is owned by the student, so one can hire a CFI to instruct in one's own experimental? What if the student borrows an experimental from a friend? Can an instructor be hired for that use?]]>
drseti wrote:You can certainly use an experimental aircraft (either ELSA or E-AB) to earn your SP rating, as long as it conforms to the restrictions that define LSA in FAR 1.1. At this point, experimentals can't be rented out by flight schools, and CFIs can't use them to provide instruction for hire. There is an NPRM to change that, but the process is slow, so don't hold your breath.

At the moment, one of my students owns an E-AB Zenith CH601 in which he is finishing up his training, and another just acquired a KitFox to which he will be transitioning shortly - so yes, it's possible.


I may be wrong, but I think the statement "CFIs can't use them to provide instruction for hire" is a bit misleading. It sounds like a CFI can't charge for instruction in an experimental. Isn't there is an exception if the plane is owned by the student, so one can hire a CFI to instruct in one's own experimental? What if the student borrows an experimental from a friend? Can an instructor be hired for that use?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T10:26:29-05:00 2018-11-21T10:26:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53921#p53921 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-11-21T12:53:32-05:00 2018-11-21T12:53:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53925#p53925
drseti wrote:I should add that not all CFIs will agree to train in an experimental, and not all DPEs will give checkrides in them. So, shop around for an instructor and an examiner before you shop for an airplane!


I can vouch that not all DPEs will give checkrides. That's what happened to me the first time my instructor set me up. When the DPE found out I had an E-AB Zenith 601 he balked.]]>
drseti wrote:I should add that not all CFIs will agree to train in an experimental, and not all DPEs will give checkrides in them. So, shop around for an instructor and an examiner before you shop for an airplane!


I can vouch that not all DPEs will give checkrides. That's what happened to me the first time my instructor set me up. When the DPE found out I had an E-AB Zenith 601 he balked.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-11-21T12:58:47-05:00 2018-11-21T12:58:47-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53926#p53926
drseti wrote:......At the moment, one of my students owns an E-AB Zenith CH601 in which he is finishing up his training, and another just acquired a KitFox to which he will be transitioning shortly - so yes, it's possible.


Glad to see I wasn't the only one to do that.]]>
drseti wrote:......At the moment, one of my students owns an E-AB Zenith CH601 in which he is finishing up his training, and another just acquired a KitFox to which he will be transitioning shortly - so yes, it's possible.


Glad to see I wasn't the only one to do that.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T13:18:35-05:00 2018-11-21T13:18:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53928#p53928
rcpilot wrote:I can vouch that not all DPEs will give checkrides. That's what happened to me the first time my instructor set me up. When the DPE found out I had an E-AB Zenith 601 he balked.


Shameless plug: I'm not one of those DPEs who balks at experimentals. :D]]>
rcpilot wrote:I can vouch that not all DPEs will give checkrides. That's what happened to me the first time my instructor set me up. When the DPE found out I had an E-AB Zenith 601 he balked.


Shameless plug: I'm not one of those DPEs who balks at experimentals. :D]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-11-21T21:32:07-05:00 2018-11-21T21:32:07-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53947#p53947
-Tony]]>

-Tony]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Experimental for training? :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-22T18:39:56-05:00 2018-11-22T18:39:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5226&p=53951#p53951
You’ll more than likely have to find an independent instructor to do this. If he/she works at a flight school the school may have their own policy and simply tell you no just to cover their a$$. :mrgreen:]]>

You’ll more than likely have to find an independent instructor to do this. If he/she works at a flight school the school may have their own policy and simply tell you no just to cover their a$$. :mrgreen:]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: NPRM to allow training in ELSAs :: Reply by kbrown66]]> 2018-11-26T14:53:53-05:00 2018-11-26T14:53:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5207&p=53973#p53973 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Training :: Re: NPRM to allow training in ELSAs :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-26T18:08:31-05:00 2018-11-26T18:08:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5207&p=53975#p53975 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: NPRM to allow training in ELSAs :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-26T19:12:11-05:00 2018-11-26T19:12:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5207&p=53977#p53977
kbrown66 wrote: I hope this doesn't take too long to go through.


Oh, it will! :(]]>
kbrown66 wrote: I hope this doesn't take too long to go through.


Oh, it will! :(]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Author doylexus]]> 2018-11-29T10:02:49-05:00 2018-11-29T10:02:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54008#p54008 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-11-29T11:39:46-05:00 2018-11-29T11:39:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54010#p54010 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-29T13:35:05-05:00 2018-11-29T13:35:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54013#p54013 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by Half Fast]]> 2018-11-29T13:45:58-05:00 2018-11-29T13:45:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54014#p54014
doylexus wrote:Also, as far as I can tell, you can do all the training you need for sport pilot in a normal plane, but need to end up for the exam in an LSA plane and be familiar enough to pass.



Not quite correct. You will need an LSA for solo.]]>
doylexus wrote:Also, as far as I can tell, you can do all the training you need for sport pilot in a normal plane, but need to end up for the exam in an LSA plane and be familiar enough to pass.



Not quite correct. You will need an LSA for solo.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-11-29T14:08:06-05:00 2018-11-29T14:08:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54015#p54015 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-29T15:58:06-05:00 2018-11-29T15:58:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54016#p54016
Half Fast wrote:
doylexus wrote:Also, as far as I can tell, you can do all the training you need for sport pilot in a normal plane, but need to end up for the exam in an LSA plane and be familiar enough to pass.



Not quite correct. You will need an LSA for solo.


Not quite correct. 61.313 just requires that the training be in a single engine airplane for airplane category sport pilot. The solo could be in a non LSA, but you would have to hold a medical or BasicMed while performing that solo flight. That being said, it does kind of defeat the purpose of flying a LSA using a drivers license in lieu of a medical. The checkride does have to be in a LSA.]]>
Half Fast wrote:
doylexus wrote:Also, as far as I can tell, you can do all the training you need for sport pilot in a normal plane, but need to end up for the exam in an LSA plane and be familiar enough to pass.



Not quite correct. You will need an LSA for solo.


Not quite correct. 61.313 just requires that the training be in a single engine airplane for airplane category sport pilot. The solo could be in a non LSA, but you would have to hold a medical or BasicMed while performing that solo flight. That being said, it does kind of defeat the purpose of flying a LSA using a drivers license in lieu of a medical. The checkride does have to be in a LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-29T16:03:41-05:00 2018-11-29T16:03:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54017#p54017
My concern is not about the experience itself, but rather retention of skills. There are exceptions, of course, but for most learners, cramming so much material into so little time results in information overload, such that the material never makes it into longterm memory, and skills atrophy rapidly afterward. But, as with all things aviation, YMMV.]]>

My concern is not about the experience itself, but rather retention of skills. There are exceptions, of course, but for most learners, cramming so much material into so little time results in information overload, such that the material never makes it into longterm memory, and skills atrophy rapidly afterward. But, as with all things aviation, YMMV.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-11-30T07:10:56-05:00 2018-11-30T07:10:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54028#p54028
drseti wrote:Mid-Island now has a couple of Bristells. As for the 10-day option, they don't call it a Crash Course for nothing. ;)


I've seen the Bristell there recently. I know the owner of the flight school was selling them but I'm glad to see they've added it to the flight school.]]>
drseti wrote:Mid-Island now has a couple of Bristells. As for the 10-day option, they don't call it a Crash Course for nothing. ;)


I've seen the Bristell there recently. I know the owner of the flight school was selling them but I'm glad to see they've added it to the flight school.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-30T08:35:45-05:00 2018-11-30T08:35:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54029#p54029
HappyDan…. are you still 'happy' about the costly adventure? Would you recommend it to others and now what are your plans?]]>

HappyDan…. are you still 'happy' about the costly adventure? Would you recommend it to others and now what are your plans?]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-30T10:34:22-05:00 2018-11-30T10:34:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54035#p54035
drseti wrote:My concern is not about the experience itself, but rather retention of skills. There are exceptions, of course, but for most learners, cramming so much material into so little time results in information overload, such that the material never makes it into longterm memory, and skills atrophy rapidly afterward. But, as with all things aviation, YMMV.


I think this might be a viable way to go, if one committed to building experience and possibly additional training in a timely fashion post-checkride.]]>
drseti wrote:My concern is not about the experience itself, but rather retention of skills. There are exceptions, of course, but for most learners, cramming so much material into so little time results in information overload, such that the material never makes it into longterm memory, and skills atrophy rapidly afterward. But, as with all things aviation, YMMV.


I think this might be a viable way to go, if one committed to building experience and possibly additional training in a timely fashion post-checkride.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-30T11:02:20-05:00 2018-11-30T11:02:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54036#p54036
HAPPYDAN wrote:Well, my friend, I did the 3 week $10,000+ course with EAA at Oshkosh. Good and bad. The bad - no certificate. I thought I was doing OK, but apparently they didn't. Now the good. EAA is a wonderful organization, and you will not be bored at their campus on Wittman field. They have 3 Skycatchers, very well maintained, 2 with PFD only and one with PFD and MFD. You will get all the hours you can stand and the weather will allow. The dormitory is basic, but comfortable. The meals are all prepared by a professional staff, and were very much to my liking. You also get the opportunity to take intro rides in some unique aircraft. I got a ride in a biplane and a T6 Texan (with maybe 5 minutes of stick time). If you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to answer.


If you like drinking from a fire hose and have $10k burning a hole in your pocket it may not be a bad way to go but I can surely think of other ways to spend the spare $5K I'd save training the traditional way. Like use it to rent a LSA after I got my SPL. Some people are a "get 'er done" kinda person while others are "slow and steady win the race". Whatever suits your needs and you are comfortable with.

Stick with it HappyDan, it's a rewarding adventure as you probably already know. Good luck.]]>
HAPPYDAN wrote:Well, my friend, I did the 3 week $10,000+ course with EAA at Oshkosh. Good and bad. The bad - no certificate. I thought I was doing OK, but apparently they didn't. Now the good. EAA is a wonderful organization, and you will not be bored at their campus on Wittman field. They have 3 Skycatchers, very well maintained, 2 with PFD only and one with PFD and MFD. You will get all the hours you can stand and the weather will allow. The dormitory is basic, but comfortable. The meals are all prepared by a professional staff, and were very much to my liking. You also get the opportunity to take intro rides in some unique aircraft. I got a ride in a biplane and a T6 Texan (with maybe 5 minutes of stick time). If you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to answer.


If you like drinking from a fire hose and have $10k burning a hole in your pocket it may not be a bad way to go but I can surely think of other ways to spend the spare $5K I'd save training the traditional way. Like use it to rent a LSA after I got my SPL. Some people are a "get 'er done" kinda person while others are "slow and steady win the race". Whatever suits your needs and you are comfortable with.

Stick with it HappyDan, it's a rewarding adventure as you probably already know. Good luck.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-11-30T11:27:54-05:00 2018-11-30T11:27:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54037#p54037
chicagorandy wrote:" I did the 3 week $10,000+ course with EAA at Oshkosh.The bad - no certificate.:

HappyDan…. are you still 'happy' about the costly adventure? Would you recommend it to others and now what are your plans?

Randy, I'm still HappyDan for lots of other reasons. It was indeed a chunk of change, including airfare from Seattle, rental car, and sundries, but I had already planned for the expense. The course is very comprehensive, and a fantastic learning experience. You will learn all about the Skycatcher and the Garmin 300 panel, and get the opportunity to fly all over Wisconsin (and Lake MI). As for a recommendation, many others, mostly older guys like me (67) have successfully completed the course and even received endorsements for +87 knots and C and D airspace. Myself, I simply never understood where I went wrong. As an old black-boot Army Major, I can't function properly without accurate G-2. So, unless some ridiculous opportunity drops in my lap, I'm done. I still belong to EAA and AOPA, and support GA.]]>
chicagorandy wrote:" I did the 3 week $10,000+ course with EAA at Oshkosh.The bad - no certificate.:

HappyDan…. are you still 'happy' about the costly adventure? Would you recommend it to others and now what are your plans?

Randy, I'm still HappyDan for lots of other reasons. It was indeed a chunk of change, including airfare from Seattle, rental car, and sundries, but I had already planned for the expense. The course is very comprehensive, and a fantastic learning experience. You will learn all about the Skycatcher and the Garmin 300 panel, and get the opportunity to fly all over Wisconsin (and Lake MI). As for a recommendation, many others, mostly older guys like me (67) have successfully completed the course and even received endorsements for +87 knots and C and D airspace. Myself, I simply never understood where I went wrong. As an old black-boot Army Major, I can't function properly without accurate G-2. So, unless some ridiculous opportunity drops in my lap, I'm done. I still belong to EAA and AOPA, and support GA.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T12:23:12-05:00 2018-11-30T12:23:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54039#p54039 <![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-30T13:02:44-05:00 2018-11-30T13:02:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54043#p54043
TimTaylor wrote:There are plenty of pilots flying around that probably should not be.


Are you speaking about yourself there, Tim? ;)]]>
TimTaylor wrote:There are plenty of pilots flying around that probably should not be.


Are you speaking about yourself there, Tim? ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T13:07:09-05:00 2018-11-30T13:07:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54045#p54045
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:There are plenty of pilots flying around that probably should not be.


Are you speaking about yourself there, Tim? ;)


Absolutely not, but thanks for the insult.]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:There are plenty of pilots flying around that probably should not be.


Are you speaking about yourself there, Tim? ;)


Absolutely not, but thanks for the insult.]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-30T14:10:32-05:00 2018-11-30T14:10:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54051#p54051
TimTaylor wrote:Absolutely not, but thanks for the insult.


Any time, my friend. :D]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Absolutely not, but thanks for the insult.


Any time, my friend. :D]]>
<![CDATA[Training :: Re: Sport Pilot training. 10-day killer course or Long Island? :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-03T11:45:46-05:00 2018-12-03T11:45:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5233&p=54079#p54079 http://www.blueridgesportflight.com/
I lived in NC for 5 years, and that part of the country has spectacular scenery.
And here's another one, by one of our occasional posters, Paul Hamilton:
http://sportaviationcenter.com/
That one is intriguing also, because it's near Reno and Lake Tahoe, both exciting areas, but for different reasons.
Good Luck!]]>
http://www.blueridgesportflight.com/
I lived in NC for 5 years, and that part of the country has spectacular scenery.
And here's another one, by one of our occasional posters, Paul Hamilton:
http://sportaviationcenter.com/
That one is intriguing also, because it's near Reno and Lake Tahoe, both exciting areas, but for different reasons.
Good Luck!]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Flight Review Today :: Author TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-19T12:18:45-05:00 2018-11-19T12:18:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53877#p53877 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by rideandfly]]> 2018-11-19T13:52:33-05:00 2018-11-19T13:52:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53881#p53881 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-19T21:14:40-05:00 2018-11-19T21:31:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53885#p53885
Also, about two years ago one of the SkyCatchers I was flying was totalled by a tornado that hit KPDK in Atlanta. Now, this week, the other SkyCatcher I fly out of KGVL was totaled.

So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.

Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.]]>

Also, about two years ago one of the SkyCatchers I was flying was totalled by a tornado that hit KPDK in Atlanta. Now, this week, the other SkyCatcher I fly out of KGVL was totaled.

So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.

Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-11-19T21:30:09-05:00 2018-11-19T21:30:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53886#p53886
On the other hand it is clear to me that GA is dying - it seems like it is the norm for me to be one of the youngest at various airport gatherings ... and I am in my 40s.

Nobody can afford a new certified plane and the old ones are getting older every year so it seems the only people who fly them are the same folks who grew up with these machines 40 or 50 years ago..]]>

On the other hand it is clear to me that GA is dying - it seems like it is the norm for me to be one of the youngest at various airport gatherings ... and I am in my 40s.

Nobody can afford a new certified plane and the old ones are getting older every year so it seems the only people who fly them are the same folks who grew up with these machines 40 or 50 years ago..]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-19T21:35:17-05:00 2018-11-19T21:35:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53887#p53887 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-11-19T21:44:21-05:00 2018-11-19T21:44:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53888#p53888
It also doesn’t help that a lot of LSAs, due to artificial weight limits, are just not as sturdy as various certified , larger models and don’t do well in rental environments ...]]>

It also doesn’t help that a lot of LSAs, due to artificial weight limits, are just not as sturdy as various certified , larger models and don’t do well in rental environments ...]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-19T21:55:30-05:00 2018-11-19T21:55:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53889#p53889 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-19T23:23:28-05:00 2018-11-19T23:23:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53890#p53890
TimTaylor wrote: So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.


I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.]]>
TimTaylor wrote: So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.


I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T00:31:04-05:00 2018-11-20T00:31:04-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53891#p53891
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.


I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.

Not the airport, the county. I don't get it, but he would know.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.


I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.

Not the airport, the county. I don't get it, but he would know.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-20T07:50:58-05:00 2018-11-20T07:50:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53892#p53892
TimTaylor wrote:I understand why it is happening. My problem is the fact that it is happening. Two years ago, I had 5 LSA available to rent in Atlanta and North Carolina. Now, I'm on the verge of having zero.


Maybe the universe is telling you it’s time to buy a plane!

With all the folks selling or getting out of the Light Sport business, it may help you drive a bargain.

Does Hansen have anything for sale that would interest you?]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I understand why it is happening. My problem is the fact that it is happening. Two years ago, I had 5 LSA available to rent in Atlanta and North Carolina. Now, I'm on the verge of having zero.


Maybe the universe is telling you it’s time to buy a plane!

With all the folks selling or getting out of the Light Sport business, it may help you drive a bargain.

Does Hansen have anything for sale that would interest you?]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-11-20T09:22:49-05:00 2018-11-20T09:22:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53896#p53896 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-20T10:10:36-05:00 2018-11-20T10:10:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53898#p53898
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.


I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.

Not the airport, the county. I don't get it, but he would know.


Again, public airport, FAA funding, opening a big can of legal worms. It happens all the time. The local government tries to do something that they can't legally do.

Our airport is run by an airport authority, which is government entity by its self with its own geographical boundaries. About 5 years ago one of our county board members realized that the whole county doesn't pay taxes on the airport. He decided the airport didn't really do anyone any good, and was just for a few rich people. He stated that they should cut the taxes from the airport and use them somewhere else.
Boy did he get an education. First and foremost was that the county board didn't have any business in the airports business. Second was the economic impact that the airport actually has on the community, from increased crop production to our largest employer being located here because of the airport.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.


I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.

Not the airport, the county. I don't get it, but he would know.


Again, public airport, FAA funding, opening a big can of legal worms. It happens all the time. The local government tries to do something that they can't legally do.

Our airport is run by an airport authority, which is government entity by its self with its own geographical boundaries. About 5 years ago one of our county board members realized that the whole county doesn't pay taxes on the airport. He decided the airport didn't really do anyone any good, and was just for a few rich people. He stated that they should cut the taxes from the airport and use them somewhere else.
Boy did he get an education. First and foremost was that the county board didn't have any business in the airports business. Second was the economic impact that the airport actually has on the community, from increased crop production to our largest employer being located here because of the airport.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T11:21:00-05:00 2018-11-20T11:26:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53899#p53899
FastEddieB wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I understand why it is happening. My problem is the fact that it is happening. Two years ago, I had 5 LSA available to rent in Atlanta and North Carolina. Now, I'm on the verge of having zero.


Maybe the universe is telling you it’s time to buy a plane!

With all the folks selling or getting out of the Light Sport business, it may help you drive a bargain.

Does Hansen have anything for sale that would interest you?

No, because they are all composites. Nothing wrong with composites except I would need a hanger. I'm still not sure I want to own another airplane. At 71 years old, I'm not sure I want to deal with airplane ownership. Renting works for me, except when it doesn't.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I understand why it is happening. My problem is the fact that it is happening. Two years ago, I had 5 LSA available to rent in Atlanta and North Carolina. Now, I'm on the verge of having zero.


Maybe the universe is telling you it’s time to buy a plane!

With all the folks selling or getting out of the Light Sport business, it may help you drive a bargain.

Does Hansen have anything for sale that would interest you?

No, because they are all composites. Nothing wrong with composites except I would need a hanger. I'm still not sure I want to own another airplane. At 71 years old, I'm not sure I want to deal with airplane ownership. Renting works for me, except when it doesn't.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T11:22:49-05:00 2018-11-20T11:22:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53900#p53900
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.

Not the airport, the county. I don't get it, but he would know.


Again, public airport, FAA funding, opening a big can of legal worms. It happens all the time. The local government tries to do something that they can't legally do.

Our airport is run by an airport authority, which is government entity by its self with its own geographical boundaries. About 5 years ago one of our county board members realized that the whole county doesn't pay taxes on the airport. He decided the airport didn't really do anyone any good, and was just for a few rich people. He stated that they should cut the taxes from the airport and use them somewhere else.
Boy did he get an education. First and foremost was that the county board didn't have any business in the airports business. Second was the economic impact that the airport actually has on the community, from increased crop production to our largest employer being located here because of the airport.

He said the county will not let him rent unless he opens a flight school. That's all I need to know, it's not an option for me.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
I don't think the airport can legally do that if they accept FAA funding.

Not the airport, the county. I don't get it, but he would know.


Again, public airport, FAA funding, opening a big can of legal worms. It happens all the time. The local government tries to do something that they can't legally do.

Our airport is run by an airport authority, which is government entity by its self with its own geographical boundaries. About 5 years ago one of our county board members realized that the whole county doesn't pay taxes on the airport. He decided the airport didn't really do anyone any good, and was just for a few rich people. He stated that they should cut the taxes from the airport and use them somewhere else.
Boy did he get an education. First and foremost was that the county board didn't have any business in the airports business. Second was the economic impact that the airport actually has on the community, from increased crop production to our largest employer being located here because of the airport.

He said the county will not let him rent unless he opens a flight school. That's all I need to know, it's not an option for me.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-20T11:33:19-05:00 2018-11-20T11:33:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53901#p53901 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T11:52:20-05:00 2018-11-20T11:52:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53902#p53902
chicagorandy wrote:Haven't yet begun to invest the considerable $$$$ a Sport Pilot License commands, and from what I'm reading over the past year it sounds more like getting a license to ride a Unicorn, great idea but none to rent.


Perhaps, unless you have the resources and want to use them to purchase your own LSA and rent a hanger. That's why I always come up with the calculations that say you need a flying budget of at least $1,000 per month to own an LSA. You also need the cash to purchase the airplane. In my mind, the Sport Pilot certificate is a best fit for us older guys who don't have a medical, but have plenty of money to spend on a hobby.

Then, to get philosophical about it, you get into the question of values, etc. If you have the resources to do it without asking anyone else to give up anything of significance, then go for it. If you have to put someone else's future at risk or ask them to sacrifice, then maybe not.]]>
chicagorandy wrote:Haven't yet begun to invest the considerable $$$$ a Sport Pilot License commands, and from what I'm reading over the past year it sounds more like getting a license to ride a Unicorn, great idea but none to rent.


Perhaps, unless you have the resources and want to use them to purchase your own LSA and rent a hanger. That's why I always come up with the calculations that say you need a flying budget of at least $1,000 per month to own an LSA. You also need the cash to purchase the airplane. In my mind, the Sport Pilot certificate is a best fit for us older guys who don't have a medical, but have plenty of money to spend on a hobby.

Then, to get philosophical about it, you get into the question of values, etc. If you have the resources to do it without asking anyone else to give up anything of significance, then go for it. If you have to put someone else's future at risk or ask them to sacrifice, then maybe not.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-20T12:19:59-05:00 2018-11-20T12:19:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53904#p53904
chicagorandy wrote:Haven't yet begun to invest the considerable $$$$ a Sport Pilot License commands, and from what I'm reading over the past year it sounds more like getting a license to ride a Unicorn, great idea but none to rent.

Andy, you have spent a lot of time and effort in preparation for the Sport Pilot written exam. If I was you, I would go ahead and take and pass the written. Don't lose the time and money you have already invested. I think it's good for 2 years, IIFC.]]>
chicagorandy wrote:Haven't yet begun to invest the considerable $$$$ a Sport Pilot License commands, and from what I'm reading over the past year it sounds more like getting a license to ride a Unicorn, great idea but none to rent.

Andy, you have spent a lot of time and effort in preparation for the Sport Pilot written exam. If I was you, I would go ahead and take and pass the written. Don't lose the time and money you have already invested. I think it's good for 2 years, IIFC.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-11-21T08:40:21-05:00 2018-11-21T08:40:21-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53914#p53914
TimTaylor wrote:............Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.


Well it's sort of what I went through 3 years ago on Long Island when I decided to start training for sport pilot. Only 1 flight school offered it and they were down to just a Skycatcher, that at the time, I was too fat for. Hence I ended up just buying an E-AB to do my training in.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:............Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.


Well it's sort of what I went through 3 years ago on Long Island when I decided to start training for sport pilot. Only 1 flight school offered it and they were down to just a Skycatcher, that at the time, I was too fat for. Hence I ended up just buying an E-AB to do my training in.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-23T11:43:48-05:00 2018-11-23T11:43:48-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53954#p53954
TimTaylor wrote:The bad news is they are selling the Remos GX and also their Carbon Cub which I have never flown. Both are listed for sale. About two years ago, the SkyCatcher at Lake Norman was sold. Both of these rental locations are replacing their LSA's with Cessna 172's.

Also, about two years ago one of the SkyCatchers I was flying was totalled by a tornado that hit KPDK in Atlanta. Now, this week, the other SkyCatcher I fly out of KGVL was totaled.

So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.

Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.


Problem solved. Replacement SkyCatcher arrives Sunday.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:The bad news is they are selling the Remos GX and also their Carbon Cub which I have never flown. Both are listed for sale. About two years ago, the SkyCatcher at Lake Norman was sold. Both of these rental locations are replacing their LSA's with Cessna 172's.

Also, about two years ago one of the SkyCatchers I was flying was totalled by a tornado that hit KPDK in Atlanta. Now, this week, the other SkyCatcher I fly out of KGVL was totaled.

So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.

Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.


Problem solved. Replacement SkyCatcher arrives Sunday.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-23T17:59:23-05:00 2018-11-23T17:59:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53956#p53956
TimTaylor wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:The bad news is they are selling the Remos GX and also their Carbon Cub which I have never flown. Both are listed for sale. About two years ago, the SkyCatcher at Lake Norman was sold. Both of these rental locations are replacing their LSA's with Cessna 172's.

Also, about two years ago one of the SkyCatchers I was flying was totalled by a tornado that hit KPDK in Atlanta. Now, this week, the other SkyCatcher I fly out of KGVL was totaled.

So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.

Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.


Problem solved. Replacement SkyCatcher arrives Sunday.


I really would not want to purchase an LSA until we see if the definition is going to be changed to raise the weight limit significantly. By then, I'll probably be able to afford it.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:The bad news is they are selling the Remos GX and also their Carbon Cub which I have never flown. Both are listed for sale. About two years ago, the SkyCatcher at Lake Norman was sold. Both of these rental locations are replacing their LSA's with Cessna 172's.

Also, about two years ago one of the SkyCatchers I was flying was totalled by a tornado that hit KPDK in Atlanta. Now, this week, the other SkyCatcher I fly out of KGVL was totaled.

So, just in case Lanier does not replace their totaled SkyCatcher, I called Jon Hansen at KRYY in Marietta, GA to inquire about renting one of his LSA. He is the SkyArrow dealer and has 3 or 4 different LSA's available. Well, too bad, Cobb County has told him he can no longer rent LSA unless he is running a flight school and he has no desire to run a flight school. All of his LSA are for sale.

Light Sport in dying here in Georgia and North Carolina, or so it seems.


Problem solved. Replacement SkyCatcher arrives Sunday.


I really would not want to purchase an LSA until we see if the definition is going to be changed to raise the weight limit significantly. By then, I'll probably be able to afford it.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-11-23T18:46:23-05:00 2018-11-23T18:46:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53957#p53957 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-23T18:59:01-05:00 2018-11-23T18:59:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53958#p53958
Warmi wrote:Yeah, a lot of people will probably try to wait ,which will further depress the market , but then again ... it make take FAA another 5 or more years before anything happens and that’s basically 5 wasted years.


Not wasted at all. My preference is to rent and my rental SkyCatcher arrives Sunday. Having owned 3 airplanes, owning a 4th is not my preference.]]>
Warmi wrote:Yeah, a lot of people will probably try to wait ,which will further depress the market , but then again ... it make take FAA another 5 or more years before anything happens and that’s basically 5 wasted years.


Not wasted at all. My preference is to rent and my rental SkyCatcher arrives Sunday. Having owned 3 airplanes, owning a 4th is not my preference.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-23T20:35:13-05:00 2018-11-23T20:35:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53959#p53959
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Yeah, a lot of people will probably try to wait ,which will further depress the market , but then again ... it make take FAA another 5 or more years before anything happens and that’s basically 5 wasted years.


Not wasted at all. My preference is to rent and my rental SkyCatcher arrives Sunday. Having owned 3 airplanes, owning a 4th is not my preference.

At this stage of my life, I'm trying to own less stuff, not more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
Warmi wrote:Yeah, a lot of people will probably try to wait ,which will further depress the market , but then again ... it make take FAA another 5 or more years before anything happens and that’s basically 5 wasted years.


Not wasted at all. My preference is to rent and my rental SkyCatcher arrives Sunday. Having owned 3 airplanes, owning a 4th is not my preference.

At this stage of my life, I'm trying to own less stuff, not more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-25T16:20:27-05:00 2018-11-25T16:20:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53965#p53965 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-25T17:29:29-05:00 2018-11-25T17:29:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=53966#p53966 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Flight Review Today :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-29T20:53:44-05:00 2018-11-29T20:53:44-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5223&p=54021#p54021
I've now flown 4 different SkyCatchers and there isn't a noticeable difference in any of them. I think it's really a shame Cessna didn't stick with the SkyCatcher. It's a great little airplane (if you can live with 490 pounds useful load).]]>

I've now flown 4 different SkyCatchers and there isn't a noticeable difference in any of them. I think it's really a shame Cessna didn't stick with the SkyCatcher. It's a great little airplane (if you can live with 490 pounds useful load).]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Insturment Training :: Author Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-13T13:03:36-05:00 2018-12-13T13:03:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54234#p54234
Question is, what to do if only training aircraft doesn’t have any gyro instruments. Just mag compass, airspeed and altimeter?

Throw cell phone out window and follow it :D

Actually I had a case where a tow pilot pulled me into the clouds while marginally within gliding distance of airport... Ended ok, low over the fence touchdown in grass with rollout to reach runway. A long haul back to takeoff position.]]>

Question is, what to do if only training aircraft doesn’t have any gyro instruments. Just mag compass, airspeed and altimeter?

Throw cell phone out window and follow it :D

Actually I had a case where a tow pilot pulled me into the clouds while marginally within gliding distance of airport... Ended ok, low over the fence touchdown in grass with rollout to reach runway. A long haul back to takeoff position.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-13T13:10:45-05:00 2018-12-13T13:10:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54235#p54235 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-13T15:41:17-05:00 2018-12-13T15:41:17-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54239#p54239
In a few weeks I will be doing cross country training with my oldest son in a 1941 Taylorcraft. It has a needle and ball, and I plan to supplement that with the instrument page on a Garmin 496. We will see how that works. If it doesn't work I will get him some time in my Warrior. We will have to use it for his night training anyway.]]>

In a few weeks I will be doing cross country training with my oldest son in a 1941 Taylorcraft. It has a needle and ball, and I plan to supplement that with the instrument page on a Garmin 496. We will see how that works. If it doesn't work I will get him some time in my Warrior. We will have to use it for his night training anyway.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-13T16:01:20-05:00 2018-12-13T16:01:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54240#p54240 <![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-13T22:36:40-05:00 2018-12-13T22:36:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54242#p54242
TimTaylor wrote:Needle, ball, and airspeed is adaquate (plus mag compass and altimeter). There are some that don't have that. I saw an Ercoupe for sale on eBay recently that did not have the ball and needle.


You would not need any simulated instrument training as a sport pilot student doing solo cross country in the Ercoupe. It has a Vh less than 87 knots.

If you are going for a private pilot certificate you automatically need instrument training before solo cross country regardless of type airplane you are flying.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Needle, ball, and airspeed is adaquate (plus mag compass and altimeter). There are some that don't have that. I saw an Ercoupe for sale on eBay recently that did not have the ball and needle.


You would not need any simulated instrument training as a sport pilot student doing solo cross country in the Ercoupe. It has a Vh less than 87 knots.

If you are going for a private pilot certificate you automatically need instrument training before solo cross country regardless of type airplane you are flying.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-14T10:15:22-05:00 2018-12-14T10:15:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54245#p54245
I would go with the equipped aircraft as several are available in my area but I was curious what the group thinks on this.

3Dreaming
: please keep us posting on the Garmin experiment. Wanting to but haven't tried it yet.]]>

I would go with the equipped aircraft as several are available in my area but I was curious what the group thinks on this.

3Dreaming
: please keep us posting on the Garmin experiment. Wanting to but haven't tried it yet.]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-14T14:23:32-05:00 2018-12-14T14:23:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54246#p54246
Jim Hardin wrote:Good thoughts. While a Turn/Slip or Bank and Turn indicator are gyro instruments and would fit the bill, I have seen one or two LSAs the didn't have any gyro and no EFIS/GPS that you could use as an alternate.


Did they have a Vh greater than 87 knots (100 MPH)?]]>
Jim Hardin wrote:Good thoughts. While a Turn/Slip or Bank and Turn indicator are gyro instruments and would fit the bill, I have seen one or two LSAs the didn't have any gyro and no EFIS/GPS that you could use as an alternate.


Did they have a Vh greater than 87 knots (100 MPH)?]]>
<![CDATA[Instructors' Corner :: Re: Insturment Training :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-15T14:17:13-05:00 2018-12-15T14:17:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5242&p=54271#p54271 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: E/AB buyers guide :: Author Atrosa]]> 2018-12-17T18:27:38-05:00 2018-12-17T18:27:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54296#p54296 <![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-17T19:52:55-05:00 2018-12-17T19:52:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54297#p54297
If I had the money to afford the airplane plus a hanger to keep it in, I would probably look for a Tecnam or Flight Design. If I had to keep it outside, then a SkyCatcher or RV12, but that's just personal choice.]]>

If I had the money to afford the airplane plus a hanger to keep it in, I would probably look for a Tecnam or Flight Design. If I had to keep it outside, then a SkyCatcher or RV12, but that's just personal choice.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by Atrosa]]> 2018-12-17T22:27:29-05:00 2018-12-17T22:27:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54298#p54298 I live in CT near KMMK and have vacation property in NH 8B2. I would be surprised if I hated flying. I grew up near 42B and watched the planes go in and out and always dreamed of owning my own plane. My flight school near me does not own an LSA plus the thought of spending 7-10K rentals to get hours doesn't sit well. 10-20% of the purchase price. The problem I'm weighing now is the monthly costs. Hanger and insurance. I can get a outside spot at KMMK for about $100 per month, not ideal but the hangers are full and over $200 per month. I'm not sure but I think insurance would be about 1200 per year. So not starting the engine will run me $200 per month. I have no idea what an annual costs either.

Something like this: https://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

or a Arion lightning, Czech sport ect...

This is going to happen after my busy time of the year. I file statements with the SEC about in May, once the dust settles... game on. Step one: take a couple of flights to determine I like flying. Step 2: finish ground school Step 3: Buy plane to continue instruction and solo. (Any advise would be appreciated)]]>
I live in CT near KMMK and have vacation property in NH 8B2. I would be surprised if I hated flying. I grew up near 42B and watched the planes go in and out and always dreamed of owning my own plane. My flight school near me does not own an LSA plus the thought of spending 7-10K rentals to get hours doesn't sit well. 10-20% of the purchase price. The problem I'm weighing now is the monthly costs. Hanger and insurance. I can get a outside spot at KMMK for about $100 per month, not ideal but the hangers are full and over $200 per month. I'm not sure but I think insurance would be about 1200 per year. So not starting the engine will run me $200 per month. I have no idea what an annual costs either.

Something like this: https://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

or a Arion lightning, Czech sport ect...

This is going to happen after my busy time of the year. I file statements with the SEC about in May, once the dust settles... game on. Step one: take a couple of flights to determine I like flying. Step 2: finish ground school Step 3: Buy plane to continue instruction and solo. (Any advise would be appreciated)]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-17T23:03:22-05:00 2018-12-17T23:03:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54299#p54299 My first year, the best I could find was $2100 per year for my insurance ( 100k hull ) - this year is down to $1700.

My major cost is the hangar - about $300 per month , fuel would be about the same ( $300 per month - 150 hours total time last year ) - my annual is about $800-1000 except last year it was time for the 5 year rubber replacement + 200 hours inspection which meant $5000 annual :(

There is no way around it - owning a plane, even a small one, is just damn expensive and you better really, really enjoy it , because it will cost you ... :D]]>
My first year, the best I could find was $2100 per year for my insurance ( 100k hull ) - this year is down to $1700.

My major cost is the hangar - about $300 per month , fuel would be about the same ( $300 per month - 150 hours total time last year ) - my annual is about $800-1000 except last year it was time for the 5 year rubber replacement + 200 hours inspection which meant $5000 annual :(

There is no way around it - owning a plane, even a small one, is just damn expensive and you better really, really enjoy it , because it will cost you ... :D]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-17T23:31:35-05:00 2018-12-17T23:31:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54300#p54300
http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4206496475001]]>

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/4206496475001]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T00:07:06-05:00 2018-12-18T00:07:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54301#p54301
Also, while I hope you love flying, some people hate it. They have panic attacks or get airsick or whatever. Others just don't have the skill set or mind set to be a pilot. Again, I recommend you get at least 10 hours of flight instruction before you decide.

You said you are somewhat risk adverse. Buying an airplane you can't afford and too soon would be a tremendous risk. You don't need to rush into this.

PS: Hangers where I live are $500 per month if you could find one, which you can't.]]>

Also, while I hope you love flying, some people hate it. They have panic attacks or get airsick or whatever. Others just don't have the skill set or mind set to be a pilot. Again, I recommend you get at least 10 hours of flight instruction before you decide.

You said you are somewhat risk adverse. Buying an airplane you can't afford and too soon would be a tremendous risk. You don't need to rush into this.

PS: Hangers where I live are $500 per month if you could find one, which you can't.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T00:16:38-05:00 2018-12-18T00:16:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54302#p54302
C-162.xlsx

I used $1,200 per year for insurance because I have quite a few hours of experience.

Attachments


C-162.xlsx (13.52 KiB)
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C-162.xlsx

I used $1,200 per year for insurance because I have quite a few hours of experience.

Attachments


C-162.xlsx (13.52 KiB)
]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-12-18T06:16:30-05:00 2018-12-18T06:16:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54303#p54303
A wise person - I think on this website - once noted that "learning to fly is still flying'. Since you are starting out at ground zero anyway, might as well set yourself up for a lifetime pursuit of the hobby. One you have that Golden Ticket in hand, or at least have confirmed the beginnings of the passion for flight, you can then start used airplane shopping.

Mr Taylor has frequently suggested that $1000 per month budget and IMHO it is sage counsel.

Just "my" thunk on the subject on a chilly Tuesday morning in Chicago.]]>

A wise person - I think on this website - once noted that "learning to fly is still flying'. Since you are starting out at ground zero anyway, might as well set yourself up for a lifetime pursuit of the hobby. One you have that Golden Ticket in hand, or at least have confirmed the beginnings of the passion for flight, you can then start used airplane shopping.

Mr Taylor has frequently suggested that $1000 per month budget and IMHO it is sage counsel.

Just "my" thunk on the subject on a chilly Tuesday morning in Chicago.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-18T08:33:54-05:00 2018-12-18T08:33:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54304#p54304
As it happens, 3 of my 4 post-solo students are currently finishing up in their own planes. But one student brought his plane after only 5 lessons, got his license in it, did a meticulous (though expensive) restoration, and now flies the most beautiful, trophy-worthy Ercoupe in the country!]]>

As it happens, 3 of my 4 post-solo students are currently finishing up in their own planes. But one student brought his plane after only 5 lessons, got his license in it, did a meticulous (though expensive) restoration, and now flies the most beautiful, trophy-worthy Ercoupe in the country!]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-12-18T08:57:51-05:00 2018-12-18T08:57:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54305#p54305 <![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-18T10:34:56-05:00 2018-12-18T10:34:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54306#p54306
drseti wrote:Quite a few of my students have bought their own planes to learn in. Generally, they wait until after their first solo to do so (in my curriculum, that usually occurs after 13 to 14 flight hours, though one youngster recently did it at 10).

As it happens, 3 of my 4 post-solo students are currently finishing up in their own planes. But one student brought his plane after only 5 lessons, got his license in it, did a meticulous (though expensive) restoration, and now flies the most beautiful, trophy-worthy Ercoupe in the country!


I did just this, I soloed at my flight school in their Remos and then when I knew it was what I wanted to do I bought my own plane and finished up my training in my own plane. Since I was still new at this there was about 5 hours of transition from a high wing to low wing that was far more pitch sensitive. There was that large upfront cost of a (used) SportCruiser since I didn't finance it but my hourly rate went way down. And learning in your own plane is priceless.

As for budgeting $1000 a month to flying, this is not accurate for everyone and costs will vary in all areas of the country so dont let this number scare you or think this is what it costs to own and fly your own plane. Could it be more, absolutely. I have a friend in South Florida who pays $685 a month just for his hangar. :shock: There are SO MANY variables in this equation and this is just what one person has determined what it'll cost them. Do your own homework and figure out what your number will be in your local area. I spend far less than $1000 a month. You'll find that a hangar will be the bulk of your monthly expense. I've seen them as low as $190 a month to as high as $685 a month.

As for you original question of buying a E/AB, or any LSA for that matter. I can't stress enough that when you find a particular make/model that you want to buy learn EVERYTHING you can about that plane and research the heck out of it. Know the plane inside and out BEFORE you even look at one so you'll know what to look for. Download all the manuals and service bulletins from the manufacturer. Read them. Does this specific plane have an online forum for its owners? Like the RV, CT or SportCruiser? Join it and learn. Get a pre-buy inspection from a LSRM who has specific knowledge of that plane and not an A&P (nothing against you A&P's at all). If you were buying a certified plane then of course use an A&P and not a LSRM. If buying a E/AB talk to the builder if you can. Did he/she do it alone? Was there factory assistance? Again, YOUR knowledge of the plane in question is your best weapon when it comes to buying a plane. Do not rely solely on the advice or recommendation of another individual just because you are paying them for that advice. And of course, dont use a mechanic that is recommended by anyone selling you a plane, get an outside, independent and unbiased mechanic to give you a fresh look at the plane from his prospective.

Buying a plane is not for the faint at heart and is time consuming. It can take weeks to gather all the data you need to make an informed decision. This is not where you want to impulse buy. :mrgreen:

As I stated earlier I own a 2007 SportCruiser that I bought used in 2013. And I'll be the first to admit that I didn't do enough homework into the COMPANY when I bought it. I fell in love with the plane and still love it today. The company, that's another story. As I've stated many times I love my plane but hate the company behind it. My advice, know what you are buying.]]>
drseti wrote:Quite a few of my students have bought their own planes to learn in. Generally, they wait until after their first solo to do so (in my curriculum, that usually occurs after 13 to 14 flight hours, though one youngster recently did it at 10).

As it happens, 3 of my 4 post-solo students are currently finishing up in their own planes. But one student brought his plane after only 5 lessons, got his license in it, did a meticulous (though expensive) restoration, and now flies the most beautiful, trophy-worthy Ercoupe in the country!


I did just this, I soloed at my flight school in their Remos and then when I knew it was what I wanted to do I bought my own plane and finished up my training in my own plane. Since I was still new at this there was about 5 hours of transition from a high wing to low wing that was far more pitch sensitive. There was that large upfront cost of a (used) SportCruiser since I didn't finance it but my hourly rate went way down. And learning in your own plane is priceless.

As for budgeting $1000 a month to flying, this is not accurate for everyone and costs will vary in all areas of the country so dont let this number scare you or think this is what it costs to own and fly your own plane. Could it be more, absolutely. I have a friend in South Florida who pays $685 a month just for his hangar. :shock: There are SO MANY variables in this equation and this is just what one person has determined what it'll cost them. Do your own homework and figure out what your number will be in your local area. I spend far less than $1000 a month. You'll find that a hangar will be the bulk of your monthly expense. I've seen them as low as $190 a month to as high as $685 a month.

As for you original question of buying a E/AB, or any LSA for that matter. I can't stress enough that when you find a particular make/model that you want to buy learn EVERYTHING you can about that plane and research the heck out of it. Know the plane inside and out BEFORE you even look at one so you'll know what to look for. Download all the manuals and service bulletins from the manufacturer. Read them. Does this specific plane have an online forum for its owners? Like the RV, CT or SportCruiser? Join it and learn. Get a pre-buy inspection from a LSRM who has specific knowledge of that plane and not an A&P (nothing against you A&P's at all). If you were buying a certified plane then of course use an A&P and not a LSRM. If buying a E/AB talk to the builder if you can. Did he/she do it alone? Was there factory assistance? Again, YOUR knowledge of the plane in question is your best weapon when it comes to buying a plane. Do not rely solely on the advice or recommendation of another individual just because you are paying them for that advice. And of course, dont use a mechanic that is recommended by anyone selling you a plane, get an outside, independent and unbiased mechanic to give you a fresh look at the plane from his prospective.

Buying a plane is not for the faint at heart and is time consuming. It can take weeks to gather all the data you need to make an informed decision. This is not where you want to impulse buy. :mrgreen:

As I stated earlier I own a 2007 SportCruiser that I bought used in 2013. And I'll be the first to admit that I didn't do enough homework into the COMPANY when I bought it. I fell in love with the plane and still love it today. The company, that's another story. As I've stated many times I love my plane but hate the company behind it. My advice, know what you are buying.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-18T11:00:01-05:00 2018-12-18T11:00:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54307#p54307
My Cub, which I bought from a friend without a pre-buy, needed a number of items replaced. Incorrect safety wire, incorrect bolts and fasteners, it was surprising to me it passed three annuals since it was restored. A Pitts I bought had a number of issues as well that required pulling the airplane apart a week after it's condition inspection got signed off. So it doesn't matter what the certification of the airplane is, what matters is how it was maintained.

Oh, and to the cost of flying... For me, flying today costs exactly as much as it did when I started in the 1980's.

Everything I got.

But I'll gladly spend it on aviation as opposed to new cars, the biggest satellite package, overseas trips, etc. It's all about choices.]]>

My Cub, which I bought from a friend without a pre-buy, needed a number of items replaced. Incorrect safety wire, incorrect bolts and fasteners, it was surprising to me it passed three annuals since it was restored. A Pitts I bought had a number of issues as well that required pulling the airplane apart a week after it's condition inspection got signed off. So it doesn't matter what the certification of the airplane is, what matters is how it was maintained.

Oh, and to the cost of flying... For me, flying today costs exactly as much as it did when I started in the 1980's.

Everything I got.

But I'll gladly spend it on aviation as opposed to new cars, the biggest satellite package, overseas trips, etc. It's all about choices.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T11:11:26-05:00 2018-12-18T11:11:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54308#p54308 <![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-18T16:18:57-05:00 2018-12-18T16:18:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54309#p54309 <![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-18T17:05:29-05:00 2018-12-18T17:05:29-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54311#p54311
3Dreaming wrote:I'm sitting in Tennessee waiting on a part to test fly an airplane. Cost is very geographical, and dependant on what you are flying. At my airport with the airplane I'm waiting to test fly, you would have to spend $750 per month in fuel to reach the $1000 per month mark. Figure in the loan payment for 3 years and you still have $400 to spend on fuel per month. That includes hangar, insurance, and $1000 for a annual inspection.


That's exactly my point, there are SO MANY factors involved the calculation of the monthly expense of owning and flying an aircraft that there is no cookie cutter, one size fits all budget. It simply does not apply to every scenario. Telling everyone that comes on here that you need a $1000 monthly budget to own and fly a plane is simply not accurate and may scare people away from GA, is that what we want? I understand that this may be Tim's scenario and what he's calculated but it's simply not the same for everyone.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I'm sitting in Tennessee waiting on a part to test fly an airplane. Cost is very geographical, and dependant on what you are flying. At my airport with the airplane I'm waiting to test fly, you would have to spend $750 per month in fuel to reach the $1000 per month mark. Figure in the loan payment for 3 years and you still have $400 to spend on fuel per month. That includes hangar, insurance, and $1000 for a annual inspection.


That's exactly my point, there are SO MANY factors involved the calculation of the monthly expense of owning and flying an aircraft that there is no cookie cutter, one size fits all budget. It simply does not apply to every scenario. Telling everyone that comes on here that you need a $1000 monthly budget to own and fly a plane is simply not accurate and may scare people away from GA, is that what we want? I understand that this may be Tim's scenario and what he's calculated but it's simply not the same for everyone.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T17:14:42-05:00 2018-12-18T17:14:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54312#p54312
C-162.xlsx

Attachments


C-162.xlsx (13.52 KiB)
]]>

C-162.xlsx

Attachments


C-162.xlsx (13.52 KiB)
]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T17:32:19-05:00 2018-12-18T17:32:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54313#p54313
TimTaylor wrote:Here's a spreadsheet I did a while back. You can argue about the individual numbers, but you can get an idea from this. This analysis was for a Cessna SkyCatcher flown 10 hours per month and tied down outside.

C-162.xlsx
I used $1,200 per year for insurance because I have quite a few hours of experience.


Just a reminder of what I posted for the OP.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Here's a spreadsheet I did a while back. You can argue about the individual numbers, but you can get an idea from this. This analysis was for a Cessna SkyCatcher flown 10 hours per month and tied down outside.

C-162.xlsx
I used $1,200 per year for insurance because I have quite a few hours of experience.


Just a reminder of what I posted for the OP.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-12-18T17:50:03-05:00 2018-12-18T17:50:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54314#p54314
TimTaylor wrote:That's why I posted my spreadsheet so the OP can insert his own numbers. Just saying it isn't so doesn't help him at all. And again, $1,000 is my recommended budget. Why don't some of you people post some useful information instead of constantly criticizing me.

C-162.xlsx


And does telling EVERYONE to budget $1000 a month to own and fly an airplane helpful? No as we all know it not to be true for everyone. Also telling people, and I quote "If you can't afford that, don't buy an airplane." How is that helpful? And people wonder why GA is dying. It's because people read negative comments like this and get discouraged. Again, helpful? I think not.

And everyone here is posting useful information that we've learned over the years. Just because you dont agree with anyone does not mean it's not useful info to someone else.

And, I wasn't criticizing you at all, I was just simply telling the OP that YOUR budget is not a one size fits all budget that he should determine his own budget based on his scenario and not assume that he needs $1000 a month like you do. If you took that as criticism then I certainly apologize as that's not what I intended.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:That's why I posted my spreadsheet so the OP can insert his own numbers. Just saying it isn't so doesn't help him at all. And again, $1,000 is my recommended budget. Why don't some of you people post some useful information instead of constantly criticizing me.

C-162.xlsx


And does telling EVERYONE to budget $1000 a month to own and fly an airplane helpful? No as we all know it not to be true for everyone. Also telling people, and I quote "If you can't afford that, don't buy an airplane." How is that helpful? And people wonder why GA is dying. It's because people read negative comments like this and get discouraged. Again, helpful? I think not.

And everyone here is posting useful information that we've learned over the years. Just because you dont agree with anyone does not mean it's not useful info to someone else.

And, I wasn't criticizing you at all, I was just simply telling the OP that YOUR budget is not a one size fits all budget that he should determine his own budget based on his scenario and not assume that he needs $1000 a month like you do. If you took that as criticism then I certainly apologize as that's not what I intended.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T17:55:52-05:00 2018-12-18T17:55:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54315#p54315
Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could post a detailed analysis of your cost since you actually own and fly an LSA.]]>

Instead of criticizing me, maybe you could post a detailed analysis of your cost since you actually own and fly an LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T18:20:58-05:00 2018-12-18T18:20:58-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54316#p54316
If I was bound and determined to own another airplane, I could "work" the numbers to make it look like I wanted it to. However, when trying to help someone else, I want to actually help them, not push them toward aircraft ownership.

You can be critical of my approach all you want. That is typical.]]>

If I was bound and determined to own another airplane, I could "work" the numbers to make it look like I wanted it to. However, when trying to help someone else, I want to actually help them, not push them toward aircraft ownership.

You can be critical of my approach all you want. That is typical.]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-18T18:51:18-05:00 2018-12-18T19:41:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54317#p54317
ROTAX.xlsx


I think this is an example of where the aircraft is not flown enough, so aircraft ownership makes no sense. The fixed cost is too high relative to hours flown. It would make more sense to rent IMHO.

By the way, I got the individual cost elements I have used in these spreadsheets by asking people on this site their opinion of the various costs.

EDIT: And guess what? If I double the flying hours to where aircraft ownership makes sense at $112 per hour, the monthly cost goes to......you guessed it...... $1000.

I'm sticking with my $1,000 per month flying budget recommendation unless you want to own and fly a $15,000 ragwing, tied down outside, probably with no electrical, and no insurance. I don't think that's what the OP has in mind.

Attachments


ROTAX.xlsx (13.58 KiB)
]]>

ROTAX.xlsx


I think this is an example of where the aircraft is not flown enough, so aircraft ownership makes no sense. The fixed cost is too high relative to hours flown. It would make more sense to rent IMHO.

By the way, I got the individual cost elements I have used in these spreadsheets by asking people on this site their opinion of the various costs.

EDIT: And guess what? If I double the flying hours to where aircraft ownership makes sense at $112 per hour, the monthly cost goes to......you guessed it...... $1000.

I'm sticking with my $1,000 per month flying budget recommendation unless you want to own and fly a $15,000 ragwing, tied down outside, probably with no electrical, and no insurance. I don't think that's what the OP has in mind.

Attachments


ROTAX.xlsx (13.58 KiB)
]]>
<![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-12-18T19:19:37-05:00 2018-12-18T19:19:37-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54318#p54318 <![CDATA[Experimenter's Corner :: Re: E/AB buyers guide :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-12-18T23:01:40-05:00 2018-12-18T23:01:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5245&p=54319#p54319 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Sting Sport down in Florida :: Author Warmi]]> 2018-11-19T19:00:13-05:00 2018-11-19T19:00:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5224&p=53884#p53884
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=218018

Looks like horizontal stabilizer fell off and the pilot had to rescue himself ( successfully ) with a chute.

Interestingly there is a bulletin board dated at 2012 specifically mentioning inspection of horizontal stabilizer connections:

Reports from the field indicate that trapped moisture may accumulate in the interior of the alignment fitting and possibly cause corrosion on any exposed metal surface. Aircraft that are located near coastal salt waters, whether stored inside or parked outside may be more susceptible to corrosion of any non-protected metal surfaces.

http://www.sting.aero/owners/notices/TL ... l%2012.pdf

Sounds like exactly what happened ...]]>

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=218018

Looks like horizontal stabilizer fell off and the pilot had to rescue himself ( successfully ) with a chute.

Interestingly there is a bulletin board dated at 2012 specifically mentioning inspection of horizontal stabilizer connections:

Reports from the field indicate that trapped moisture may accumulate in the interior of the alignment fitting and possibly cause corrosion on any exposed metal surface. Aircraft that are located near coastal salt waters, whether stored inside or parked outside may be more susceptible to corrosion of any non-protected metal surfaces.

http://www.sting.aero/owners/notices/TL ... l%2012.pdf

Sounds like exactly what happened ...]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Sting Sport down in Florida :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-20T08:16:09-05:00 2018-11-20T08:16:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5224&p=53893#p53893 at each annual. I used to share a hangar with another Sting owner (that plane is now owned by another member on this forum) and I came in on day to fly my plane and the horizontal stabilizer was off his plane and the mechanic stated that it's part of the annual to inspect these bolts and pins. It's no easy task either given that it's sealed in with some pretty heavy duty silicone as well. He made sure he told me it was no picnic getting it off. :mrgreen:

I was also flying back from Southwest Florida around this same time Saturday and the winds were pretty turbulent down low. I dont know if this played a factor as well with the horizontal stabilizer but just sharing that it was a pretty bumpy ride below 4000 feet Saturday.

Keep in mind it could have departed the plane at the time of impact as well. I think I see it, or part of it, on the right side of the picture posted on the local news that covered the accident.

https://www.wesh.com/article/single-eng ... y/25208597]]>
at each annual. I used to share a hangar with another Sting owner (that plane is now owned by another member on this forum) and I came in on day to fly my plane and the horizontal stabilizer was off his plane and the mechanic stated that it's part of the annual to inspect these bolts and pins. It's no easy task either given that it's sealed in with some pretty heavy duty silicone as well. He made sure he told me it was no picnic getting it off. :mrgreen:

I was also flying back from Southwest Florida around this same time Saturday and the winds were pretty turbulent down low. I dont know if this played a factor as well with the horizontal stabilizer but just sharing that it was a pretty bumpy ride below 4000 feet Saturday.

Keep in mind it could have departed the plane at the time of impact as well. I think I see it, or part of it, on the right side of the picture posted on the local news that covered the accident.

https://www.wesh.com/article/single-eng ... y/25208597]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Sting Sport down in Florida :: Reply by Warmi]]> 2018-11-20T08:38:22-05:00 2018-11-20T08:38:22-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5224&p=53894#p53894
It kind of make sense to me given that the plane was located very close to the coast with salty water etc ...
Will see what the final verdict is ..

BTW ... Looking at my logs , I don't see any entries indicating compliance with this directive ... until mid 2017 the plane was maintained by SportAir USA ( the dealer ) - of all people they should know best what to do - perhaps they figured that since the plane was not located in coastal area , it was not necessary.]]>

It kind of make sense to me given that the plane was located very close to the coast with salty water etc ...
Will see what the final verdict is ..

BTW ... Looking at my logs , I don't see any entries indicating compliance with this directive ... until mid 2017 the plane was maintained by SportAir USA ( the dealer ) - of all people they should know best what to do - perhaps they figured that since the plane was not located in coastal area , it was not necessary.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Sting Sport down in Florida :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-20T08:47:40-05:00 2018-11-20T08:47:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5224&p=53895#p53895
Warmi wrote:I heard it from another source that it was stabilizer departing in flight but I don't know how he got that info - perhaps it was just a guess based on the picture alone or he had some insider info - not sure yet.

It kind of make sense to me given that the plane was located very close to the coast with salty water etc ...
Will see what the final verdict is ..


Interesting, we'll wait and see if the story develops as to why this may have happened.

Technically EVERYONE is close to a coast in Florida :mrgreen: Orlando is not really close to the coast or salty water at all. Not even salty air. I lived there for 22 years so I do know that. Given the high humidity we have in Florida it simply could have just been the moisture attacking the hardware if this is the cause. This is why we inspect these things.]]>
Warmi wrote:I heard it from another source that it was stabilizer departing in flight but I don't know how he got that info - perhaps it was just a guess based on the picture alone or he had some insider info - not sure yet.

It kind of make sense to me given that the plane was located very close to the coast with salty water etc ...
Will see what the final verdict is ..


Interesting, we'll wait and see if the story develops as to why this may have happened.

Technically EVERYONE is close to a coast in Florida :mrgreen: Orlando is not really close to the coast or salty water at all. Not even salty air. I lived there for 22 years so I do know that. Given the high humidity we have in Florida it simply could have just been the moisture attacking the hardware if this is the cause. This is why we inspect these things.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Sting Sport down in Florida :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-11-20T09:26:14-05:00 2018-11-20T09:26:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5224&p=53897#p53897
Warmi wrote:Interestingly there is a bulletin board dated at 2012 specifically mentioning inspection of horizontal stabilizer connections:

Reports from the field indicate that trapped moisture may accumulate in the interior of the alignment fitting and possibly cause corrosion on any exposed metal surface. Aircraft that are located near coastal salt waters, whether stored inside or parked outside may be more susceptible to corrosion of any non-protected metal surfaces.

http://www.sting.aero/owners/notices/TL ... l%2012.pdf

That was a a one-time Service Notice but there is a requirement to remove the wings and stabilizer every other annual (or 200 hrs, whichever comes first) and inspect/lubricate various components. I haven't found removing the silicon and sealing it back much of an issue -- YMMV.

It does look like the stabilizer is near the nose of the plane in the picture which indicates separation on impact or near the ground. I would expect the NTSB preliminary report to clarify this.]]>
Warmi wrote:Interestingly there is a bulletin board dated at 2012 specifically mentioning inspection of horizontal stabilizer connections:

Reports from the field indicate that trapped moisture may accumulate in the interior of the alignment fitting and possibly cause corrosion on any exposed metal surface. Aircraft that are located near coastal salt waters, whether stored inside or parked outside may be more susceptible to corrosion of any non-protected metal surfaces.

http://www.sting.aero/owners/notices/TL ... l%2012.pdf

That was a a one-time Service Notice but there is a requirement to remove the wings and stabilizer every other annual (or 200 hrs, whichever comes first) and inspect/lubricate various components. I haven't found removing the silicon and sealing it back much of an issue -- YMMV.

It does look like the stabilizer is near the nose of the plane in the picture which indicates separation on impact or near the ground. I would expect the NTSB preliminary report to clarify this.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Prelim Accident Report NTSB RV-12 S-LSA :: Author Wm.Ince]]> 2018-11-30T21:48:46-05:00 2018-11-30T21:48:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5236&p=54056#p54056 https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA]]> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... L&IType=FA]]> <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Prelim Accident Report NTSB RV-12 S-LSA :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-12-01T09:16:09-05:00 2018-12-01T09:16:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5236&p=54057#p54057
Curious to see what else is found.]]>

Curious to see what else is found.]]>
<![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Re: Prelim Accident Report NTSB RV-12 S-LSA :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-02T13:38:08-05:00 2018-12-02T13:38:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5236&p=54072#p54072 <![CDATA[Safety Corner :: Which PLB? :: Author Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-12-06T12:56:26-05:00 2018-12-06T12:56:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5239&p=54142#p54142
I was leaning towards the RL+ for its buoyancy, but the size of the other unit is. Worth the look. Any one have experience with either? This would be in addition to the 406 I’ve got installed in the plane.]]>

I was leaning towards the RL+ for its buoyancy, but the size of the other unit is. Worth the look. Any one have experience with either? This would be in addition to the 406 I’ve got installed in the plane.]]>
<![CDATA[Medical Issues :: Re: FAA Third Class Medical :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-11-19T14:02:32-05:00 2018-11-19T14:02:32-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5148&p=53882#p53882
TimTaylor wrote:I missed Basic Med by 45 days. I think the 10 year look-back is fair and reasonable. If you're going to get back into flying, it's best to do it with a good attitude and not bad-mouthing the FAA from the get-go.


I've literally never met a pilot in person that I exchanged more than a single conversation with didn't bad-mouth *something* about the FAA.

The good news is the FAA seems to be changing, and has a much less adversarial stance with pilots than in past years.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I missed Basic Med by 45 days. I think the 10 year look-back is fair and reasonable. If you're going to get back into flying, it's best to do it with a good attitude and not bad-mouthing the FAA from the get-go.


I've literally never met a pilot in person that I exchanged more than a single conversation with didn't bad-mouth *something* about the FAA.

The good news is the FAA seems to be changing, and has a much less adversarial stance with pilots than in past years.]]>
<![CDATA[Medical Issues :: Re: FAA Third Class Medical :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-11-19T14:08:01-05:00 2018-11-19T14:08:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5148&p=53883#p53883
FlyAgain wrote:1. Eliminate the Third Class Medical for VFR only private pilots as they did for Light Sport. Just get rid of it. I looked though over 200 LSA accident reports and didn't any that pointed to a medical issue as the cause of the accident (I saw a one where age was insinuated as contributing, the guy was old big deal, and another where a guy's autopsy showed benadryl in his system. But I think he ran out of gas. It doesn't appear as though sport pilots are augering in due to medical issues that a Third Class would have prevented. Plenty of PPL incidents on the other hand with medical issues so doesn't appear as though the sacrosanct medical is a silver bullet.


I honestly believe that elimination of the 3rd class medical is the goal for pilots that possess a normal driver's license. But the FAA is a conservative organization, and they will creep up to that in baby steps. The combination of Basic Med and the proposed LSA rules change might mean that there will be relatively few non-commercial pilots flying on a medical. If a few years of that show no significant decrease in safety, then I could see the third class medical going away.

The situation would be similar to ground vehicles; you'd only need a medical for commercial privileges, like the way a commercial driver's license works. I think that is what we should be working toward, and I thing that looks to be the direction FAA is slowly moving.]]>
FlyAgain wrote:1. Eliminate the Third Class Medical for VFR only private pilots as they did for Light Sport. Just get rid of it. I looked though over 200 LSA accident reports and didn't any that pointed to a medical issue as the cause of the accident (I saw a one where age was insinuated as contributing, the guy was old big deal, and another where a guy's autopsy showed benadryl in his system. But I think he ran out of gas. It doesn't appear as though sport pilots are augering in due to medical issues that a Third Class would have prevented. Plenty of PPL incidents on the other hand with medical issues so doesn't appear as though the sacrosanct medical is a silver bullet.


I honestly believe that elimination of the 3rd class medical is the goal for pilots that possess a normal driver's license. But the FAA is a conservative organization, and they will creep up to that in baby steps. The combination of Basic Med and the proposed LSA rules change might mean that there will be relatively few non-commercial pilots flying on a medical. If a few years of that show no significant decrease in safety, then I could see the third class medical going away.

The situation would be similar to ground vehicles; you'd only need a medical for commercial privileges, like the way a commercial driver's license works. I think that is what we should be working toward, and I thing that looks to be the direction FAA is slowly moving.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: PPL going LSA questions :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-19T08:54:12-05:00 2018-11-19T08:54:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5222&p=53874#p53874
3Dreaming wrote:I used a new DPE for my most recent applicant. I ask what he wanted to see Foreflight vs sectional and E6B. He said he didn't care, and they could use monkey bones if they wanted, as long as they knew where the numbers come from.


Monkey bones? I almost brought my monkey bones but opted for my iPad instead. Less clutter in the cockpit. :mrgreen:

That's basically what my examiner said, tell me how you arrived at this number and why. He didn't care what I used to get to the number, even monkey bones, just how I got there. He's much younger than many DPE's that others I know had used so he's a bit more "hip" to today's technology in my opinion.]]>
3Dreaming wrote:I used a new DPE for my most recent applicant. I ask what he wanted to see Foreflight vs sectional and E6B. He said he didn't care, and they could use monkey bones if they wanted, as long as they knew where the numbers come from.


Monkey bones? I almost brought my monkey bones but opted for my iPad instead. Less clutter in the cockpit. :mrgreen:

That's basically what my examiner said, tell me how you arrived at this number and why. He didn't care what I used to get to the number, even monkey bones, just how I got there. He's much younger than many DPE's that others I know had used so he's a bit more "hip" to today's technology in my opinion.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: PPL going LSA questions :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-11-19T13:37:20-05:00 2018-11-19T13:37:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5222&p=53879#p53879 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: PPL going LSA questions :: Reply by foresterpoole]]> 2018-11-26T14:10:30-05:00 2018-11-26T14:10:30-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5222&p=53972#p53972
MrMorden wrote:I like to pitch over to zero g and let the Monkey Bones float in front of me and reveal their wisdom.


I just blew coffee out of my nose! I had both in my bag (paper and electronic), only ended up using the EFB on my PPL checkride except a sectional he pulled out of his bag (I had one as well). When in doubt, ask the DPE ahead of time. In my case he did not care so long as I could arrive at the correct number, could explain how it was calculated, and most importantly how it impacted the flight. Ex. Weight and balance and its effect on stalls.]]>
MrMorden wrote:I like to pitch over to zero g and let the Monkey Bones float in front of me and reveal their wisdom.


I just blew coffee out of my nose! I had both in my bag (paper and electronic), only ended up using the EFB on my PPL checkride except a sectional he pulled out of his bag (I had one as well). When in doubt, ask the DPE ahead of time. In my case he did not care so long as I could arrive at the correct number, could explain how it was calculated, and most importantly how it impacted the flight. Ex. Weight and balance and its effect on stalls.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Author smutny]]> 2018-11-28T11:04:00-05:00 2018-11-28T11:04:00-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=53987#p53987
The updated Part 61 states the following, emphasis mine:

(l) Permitted credit for flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may credit flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating toward the aeronautical experience requirements of this section if the following conditions are met:

My questions are (assuming both start with a CFI-S):

Pilot A gets their SPL in 20 hours, they then decide to go on to get their PPL. All 20 hours applies towards the PPL?

Pilot B decides after 10 hours in on their SPL they want to go for their PPL and switch to a non-LSA aircraft and CFI. They cannot apply any of those 10 hours towards their PPL?

Am I understanding that correctly?]]>

The updated Part 61 states the following, emphasis mine:

(l) Permitted credit for flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may credit flight training received from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating toward the aeronautical experience requirements of this section if the following conditions are met:

My questions are (assuming both start with a CFI-S):

Pilot A gets their SPL in 20 hours, they then decide to go on to get their PPL. All 20 hours applies towards the PPL?

Pilot B decides after 10 hours in on their SPL they want to go for their PPL and switch to a non-LSA aircraft and CFI. They cannot apply any of those 10 hours towards their PPL?

Am I understanding that correctly?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-28T11:53:16-05:00 2018-11-28T11:53:16-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=53989#p53989
If it is not interpreted that way what would keep a school from using sport pilot instructors from training students almost all the way through their training, then handing them over to a sub part H CFI for night training and checkride prep? I certainly don't think that was the FAA's intent for the change.]]>

If it is not interpreted that way what would keep a school from using sport pilot instructors from training students almost all the way through their training, then handing them over to a sub part H CFI for night training and checkride prep? I certainly don't think that was the FAA's intent for the change.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-28T23:47:43-05:00 2018-11-28T23:47:43-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54005#p54005 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-11-29T20:12:10-05:00 2018-11-29T20:12:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54018#p54018 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-29T20:27:52-05:00 2018-11-29T20:27:52-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54019#p54019
Also, while Paul points out a likely scenario, it is also possible a student pilot gets a Sport Pilot certificate and a week later gets the training and hours required for a Private. There is nothing that says he needs years of valuable experience as a Sport Pilot to upgrade to Private. Either the CFI-S training should count or it should not count, regardless.]]>

Also, while Paul points out a likely scenario, it is also possible a student pilot gets a Sport Pilot certificate and a week later gets the training and hours required for a Private. There is nothing that says he needs years of valuable experience as a Sport Pilot to upgrade to Private. Either the CFI-S training should count or it should not count, regardless.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-29T20:50:45-05:00 2018-11-29T20:50:45-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54020#p54020
TimTaylor wrote: it is also possible a student pilot gets a Sport Pilot certificate and a week later gets the training and hours required for a Private.


That's entirely correct. I was just reporting the scenario which my graduates have been following.]]>
TimTaylor wrote: it is also possible a student pilot gets a Sport Pilot certificate and a week later gets the training and hours required for a Private.


That's entirely correct. I was just reporting the scenario which my graduates have been following.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-29T20:59:33-05:00 2018-11-29T20:59:33-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54022#p54022
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: it is also possible a student pilot gets a Sport Pilot certificate and a week later gets the training and hours required for a Private.


That's entirely correct. I was just reporting the scenario which my graduates have been following.


Yes, I understand. I'm just stating my opinion why the reg makes little sense as written. Same as the one that says you need a medical to act as safety pilot. It should say you need to be able to act as legal PIC to act as safety pilot.]]>
drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote: it is also possible a student pilot gets a Sport Pilot certificate and a week later gets the training and hours required for a Private.


That's entirely correct. I was just reporting the scenario which my graduates have been following.


Yes, I understand. I'm just stating my opinion why the reg makes little sense as written. Same as the one that says you need a medical to act as safety pilot. It should say you need to be able to act as legal PIC to act as safety pilot.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-29T21:42:13-05:00 2018-11-29T21:42:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54023#p54023 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-29T22:02:10-05:00 2018-11-29T22:02:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54024#p54024
drseti wrote:Yes, that would make complete sense. Which is why we should never expect it from FAA.


What it says to me is the people at the FAA who write these things are human. They are not always able or willing to understand all the implications of what they write. In addition, evidently nobody has ever gone through all of Part 61 and Part 91 to totally harmonize the advent of Sport Pilot and LSA with all the pre-existing regulations.]]>
drseti wrote:Yes, that would make complete sense. Which is why we should never expect it from FAA.


What it says to me is the people at the FAA who write these things are human. They are not always able or willing to understand all the implications of what they write. In addition, evidently nobody has ever gone through all of Part 61 and Part 91 to totally harmonize the advent of Sport Pilot and LSA with all the pre-existing regulations.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-29T22:28:31-05:00 2018-11-29T22:28:31-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54025#p54025 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-29T23:27:24-05:00 2018-11-29T23:27:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54026#p54026
drseti wrote:And the same, apparently, goes for the advent of Basic Med.


What's the problem with Basic Med?]]>
drseti wrote:And the same, apparently, goes for the advent of Basic Med.


What's the problem with Basic Med?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-30T03:28:49-05:00 2018-11-30T03:28:49-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54027#p54027
Using Basic Med, I can be PIC, Safety Pilot, and instruct in just about any ASEL I can also instruct in just about any ASEL even without Basic Med, if the person I'm instructing can be PIC (think flight reviews, for example). I'm also a DPE. I can give SP checkrides in an LSA with just a Driver's license medical. But, even though I'm trained for it as a DPE, I can't give PP, CP, or IFR checkrides (in an LSA or otherwise) using Basic Med. That requires a 3rd Class medical, even though the applicant is PIC during a checkride. When they wrote the Basic Med rules, they were thinking about PIC and CFI privileges, but forgot to include DPE privileges.]]>

Using Basic Med, I can be PIC, Safety Pilot, and instruct in just about any ASEL I can also instruct in just about any ASEL even without Basic Med, if the person I'm instructing can be PIC (think flight reviews, for example). I'm also a DPE. I can give SP checkrides in an LSA with just a Driver's license medical. But, even though I'm trained for it as a DPE, I can't give PP, CP, or IFR checkrides (in an LSA or otherwise) using Basic Med. That requires a 3rd Class medical, even though the applicant is PIC during a checkride. When they wrote the Basic Med rules, they were thinking about PIC and CFI privileges, but forgot to include DPE privileges.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-30T08:42:35-05:00 2018-11-30T08:42:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54030#p54030 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-30T08:53:56-05:00 2018-11-30T08:53:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54031#p54031 ]]> ]]> <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T12:29:10-05:00 2018-11-30T12:29:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54041#p54041
The problem seems to be that every time the FAA tries to help and give us some additional relief, someone else complains that it doesn't give them enough relief. The fact that you can be DPE in LSA helps fill the gap there. I think there are plenty DPE's around for Private, Commercial, and Instrument in non-LSA.]]>

The problem seems to be that every time the FAA tries to help and give us some additional relief, someone else complains that it doesn't give them enough relief. The fact that you can be DPE in LSA helps fill the gap there. I think there are plenty DPE's around for Private, Commercial, and Instrument in non-LSA.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-30T13:00:39-05:00 2018-11-30T13:00:39-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54042#p54042 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by FastEddieB]]> 2018-11-30T13:21:28-05:00 2018-11-30T13:21:28-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54046#p54046
TimTaylor wrote:
The problem seems to be that every time the FAA tries to help and give us some additional relief, someone else complains that it doesn't give them enough relief.


I try to always couch it roughly: I feel blessed that there are so many options open to me now concerning staying in the air with far less hassle than a decade ago between Light Sport and BasicMed.

"It would be nice if x were also possible" should not be seen as a complaint. More a wishlist.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
The problem seems to be that every time the FAA tries to help and give us some additional relief, someone else complains that it doesn't give them enough relief.


I try to always couch it roughly: I feel blessed that there are so many options open to me now concerning staying in the air with far less hassle than a decade ago between Light Sport and BasicMed.

"It would be nice if x were also possible" should not be seen as a complaint. More a wishlist.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T13:23:18-05:00 2018-11-30T13:23:18-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54047#p54047
FastEddieB wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
The problem seems to be that every time the FAA tries to help and give us some additional relief, someone else complains that it doesn't give them enough relief.


I try to always couch it roughly: I feel blessed that there are so many options open to me now concerning staying in the air with far less hassle than a decade ago between Light Sport and BasicMed.

"It would be nice if x were also possible" should not be seen as a complaint. More a wishlist.


Yes, you do. It would also be nice if the FAA would extend the Basic Med "look-back" to 10 years plus 45 days. Bummer. However, at this point, since the Mooney is gone, I'm more than happy flying the SkyCatcher. It's almost perfect for my mission.]]>
FastEddieB wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:
The problem seems to be that every time the FAA tries to help and give us some additional relief, someone else complains that it doesn't give them enough relief.


I try to always couch it roughly: I feel blessed that there are so many options open to me now concerning staying in the air with far less hassle than a decade ago between Light Sport and BasicMed.

"It would be nice if x were also possible" should not be seen as a complaint. More a wishlist.


Yes, you do. It would also be nice if the FAA would extend the Basic Med "look-back" to 10 years plus 45 days. Bummer. However, at this point, since the Mooney is gone, I'm more than happy flying the SkyCatcher. It's almost perfect for my mission.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T14:38:54-05:00 2018-11-30T14:38:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54052#p54052 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-30T18:20:42-05:00 2018-11-30T18:20:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54053#p54053 <![CDATA[Ask The Examiner :: Re: Clarification of Part 61 Change :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T19:02:19-05:00 2018-11-30T19:02:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5231&p=54054#p54054
I would also have omitted the need for a previous FAA medical and omitted the disqualification for a previous FAA medical revocation or failure. All that matters, IMHO, is your current health status, as ascertained by you and your doctor.]]>

I would also have omitted the need for a previous FAA medical and omitted the disqualification for a previous FAA medical revocation or failure. All that matters, IMHO, is your current health status, as ascertained by you and your doctor.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Fuel Question 100LL ok? :: Author FlyAgain]]> 2018-11-21T14:56:46-05:00 2018-11-21T14:56:46-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5227&p=53931#p53931
Is there a genre consensus on this?]]>

Is there a genre consensus on this?]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Mechanic :: Re: Fuel Question 100LL ok? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T15:32:56-05:00 2018-11-21T15:32:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5227&p=53935#p53935 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by rcpilot]]> 2018-11-21T11:38:26-05:00 2018-11-21T11:38:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53923#p53923 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T13:24:35-05:00 2018-11-21T13:24:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53929#p53929 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-21T15:16:57-05:00 2018-11-21T15:16:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53933#p53933 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T15:29:20-05:00 2018-11-21T15:29:20-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53934#p53934
CFIs who instruct for a lot of students in the students' own aircraft often purchase their own CFI policies. These are offered thru NAFI and others (but they're not cheap).]]>

CFIs who instruct for a lot of students in the students' own aircraft often purchase their own CFI policies. These are offered thru NAFI and others (but they're not cheap).]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-21T15:39:55-05:00 2018-11-21T15:39:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53937#p53937
TimTaylor wrote:Question...if your insurance requires 5 hours in make and model for you to be covered by the insurance, could you fly the first 5 hours by yourself without insurance coverage to satisfy this requirement? Seems like you could unless they required 5 hours of dual.

I'm just asking in regards to someone who buys an aircraft, can they satisfy the 5 hours or 25 hours or whatever it is by just flying without insurance coverage until they meet the requirement? I don't see why not if they are willing to risk flying without insurance for those hours. When my friend bought his Mooney, I flew with him for 25 hours before he flew solo.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Question...if your insurance requires 5 hours in make and model for you to be covered by the insurance, could you fly the first 5 hours by yourself without insurance coverage to satisfy this requirement? Seems like you could unless they required 5 hours of dual.

I'm just asking in regards to someone who buys an aircraft, can they satisfy the 5 hours or 25 hours or whatever it is by just flying without insurance coverage until they meet the requirement? I don't see why not if they are willing to risk flying without insurance for those hours. When my friend bought his Mooney, I flew with him for 25 hours before he flew solo.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-21T16:10:08-05:00 2018-11-21T16:10:08-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53938#p53938 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-21T18:10:36-05:00 2018-11-21T18:10:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53939#p53939
TimTaylor wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Question...if your insurance requires 5 hours in make and model for you to be covered by the insurance, could you fly the first 5 hours by yourself without insurance coverage to satisfy this requirement? Seems like you could unless they required 5 hours of dual.

I'm just asking in regards to someone who buys an aircraft, can they satisfy the 5 hours or 25 hours or whatever it is by just flying without insurance coverage until they meet the requirement? I don't see why not if they are willing to risk flying without insurance for those hours. When my friend bought his Mooney, I flew with him for 25 hours before he flew solo.


Unlike cars in which most states require insurance coverage, there is nothing ilegal about flying an airplane without insurance if you are willing to take the risk.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Question...if your insurance requires 5 hours in make and model for you to be covered by the insurance, could you fly the first 5 hours by yourself without insurance coverage to satisfy this requirement? Seems like you could unless they required 5 hours of dual.

I'm just asking in regards to someone who buys an aircraft, can they satisfy the 5 hours or 25 hours or whatever it is by just flying without insurance coverage until they meet the requirement? I don't see why not if they are willing to risk flying without insurance for those hours. When my friend bought his Mooney, I flew with him for 25 hours before he flew solo.


Unlike cars in which most states require insurance coverage, there is nothing ilegal about flying an airplane without insurance if you are willing to take the risk.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-21T18:32:40-05:00 2018-11-21T18:32:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53940#p53940 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: Insurance Ride :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-21T22:29:59-05:00 2018-11-21T22:29:59-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5218&p=53949#p53949
TimTaylor wrote:I'm sure both of those responses are correct, but they don't really answer the question. I suppose you would need to call you insurance company and ask them.


The insurance company doesn't care if you get your time in the airplane before their coverage starts. As long as they have no risk, they don't care.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:I'm sure both of those responses are correct, but they don't really answer the question. I suppose you would need to call you insurance company and ask them.


The insurance company doesn't care if you get your time in the airplane before their coverage starts. As long as they have no risk, they don't care.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Author savy13]]> 2018-11-27T16:41:36-05:00 2018-11-27T16:41:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53980#p53980
I am on my PPL training for approx 4 weeks now, with 4 hours of flying completed. When I visited several flying schools in Chicago region to pick one for my training, some indicated a need to have insurance during my training and others (including where I am taking my classes) did not.

I am a risk averse person, so my question is should I get a liability coverage to cover instances where I get involved in an accident due to my mistake when I get towards solo (or even before that with my instructor being with me)? My flying school has a residential area near the landing zone and every time I am landing, I am scared getting too close to the houses. I'd like to avoid a situation where my personal or family net worth gets exposed by any incidence.

Appreciate your insights. And if the recommendation is for me to get some coverage, appreciate advice on type and through what channels should I get it.]]>

I am on my PPL training for approx 4 weeks now, with 4 hours of flying completed. When I visited several flying schools in Chicago region to pick one for my training, some indicated a need to have insurance during my training and others (including where I am taking my classes) did not.

I am a risk averse person, so my question is should I get a liability coverage to cover instances where I get involved in an accident due to my mistake when I get towards solo (or even before that with my instructor being with me)? My flying school has a residential area near the landing zone and every time I am landing, I am scared getting too close to the houses. I'd like to avoid a situation where my personal or family net worth gets exposed by any incidence.

Appreciate your insights. And if the recommendation is for me to get some coverage, appreciate advice on type and through what channels should I get it.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-27T16:50:14-05:00 2018-11-27T16:50:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53981#p53981 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by savy13]]> 2018-11-27T16:56:55-05:00 2018-11-27T16:56:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53982#p53982
For hull value, should I seek the replacement cost value through the flying school or through the insurer? I am training in couple of old model Cessna 172s (I believe these are mid-late 70's models).]]>

For hull value, should I seek the replacement cost value through the flying school or through the insurer? I am training in couple of old model Cessna 172s (I believe these are mid-late 70's models).]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-27T17:41:02-05:00 2018-11-27T17:44:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53983#p53983 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by Sling 2 Pilot]]> 2018-11-27T17:43:34-05:00 2018-11-27T17:43:34-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53984#p53984 <![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by 3Dreaming]]> 2018-11-27T22:31:36-05:00 2018-11-27T22:31:36-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53985#p53985
savy13 wrote:Any recommendations on where I can get these? Directly through an insurer or going through a broker. And any specific recommendation on the insurance company?

For hull value, should I seek the replacement cost value through the flying school or through the insurer? I am training in couple of old model Cessna 172s (I believe these are mid-late 70's models).


Check with the FBO. They may have something available through their insurer. In the event that something does happen it can make things go a lot smoother.

A mid 70's 172 would be in the 40-50,000 range. I would think $30,000 hull would be enough. If you damage the airplane the insurance company will pay the FBO for the airplane and will try and recoup the cost with you. The airplane will still have some value, you basically need to make up the difference.

One thing to watch for is if the FBO has a rental agreement that you signed, is if you are responsible for lost revenue while the airplane is out of service. Make sure your policy covers that.]]>
savy13 wrote:Any recommendations on where I can get these? Directly through an insurer or going through a broker. And any specific recommendation on the insurance company?

For hull value, should I seek the replacement cost value through the flying school or through the insurer? I am training in couple of old model Cessna 172s (I believe these are mid-late 70's models).


Check with the FBO. They may have something available through their insurer. In the event that something does happen it can make things go a lot smoother.

A mid 70's 172 would be in the 40-50,000 range. I would think $30,000 hull would be enough. If you damage the airplane the insurance company will pay the FBO for the airplane and will try and recoup the cost with you. The airplane will still have some value, you basically need to make up the difference.

One thing to watch for is if the FBO has a rental agreement that you signed, is if you are responsible for lost revenue while the airplane is out of service. Make sure your policy covers that.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-11-27T23:47:19-05:00 2018-11-27T23:47:19-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=53986#p53986
http://avsport.org/acft/insure.htm

You'll see there that I require post-solo students to carry renter's insurance. My required hull coverage is roughly half the value of the rental aircraft. The reasoning is that, in the event if a loss, my insurance policy and yours will not balk at splitting the losses between them.

As for liability coverage, I leave that up to the renter. Whether to have it or not is a function of your risk tolerance, and how much to carry is a function of personal wealth, and the value of the assets you wish to protect.

Why only post-solo? Because, up to that point, the CFI is PIC - and my CFIs will have their own insurance.

Also on that webpage are links to the three different insurance companies that my students generally choose between. Their coverage and rates are similar.

Hope you find this helpful.]]>

http://avsport.org/acft/insure.htm

You'll see there that I require post-solo students to carry renter's insurance. My required hull coverage is roughly half the value of the rental aircraft. The reasoning is that, in the event if a loss, my insurance policy and yours will not balk at splitting the losses between them.

As for liability coverage, I leave that up to the renter. Whether to have it or not is a function of your risk tolerance, and how much to carry is a function of personal wealth, and the value of the assets you wish to protect.

Why only post-solo? Because, up to that point, the CFI is PIC - and my CFIs will have their own insurance.

Also on that webpage are links to the three different insurance companies that my students generally choose between. Their coverage and rates are similar.

Hope you find this helpful.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by savy13]]> 2018-12-03T10:51:10-05:00 2018-12-03T10:51:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=54077#p54077
Paul - your page is very informative. Appreciate your sharing it.

I'l not wait for getting to solo, but rather get both hull & liability coverage now.]]>

Paul - your page is very informative. Appreciate your sharing it.

I'l not wait for getting to solo, but rather get both hull & liability coverage now.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-03T12:03:56-05:00 2018-12-03T12:03:56-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=54080#p54080 Bodily Injury and Property Damage Liability: $50,000 each person, $500,000 Property Damage, $500,000 each accident.
Aircraft Damage Liability: $20,000 each non-owned aircraft.
Total cost: $292.00 per year.
I thought that was very reasonable, but shop around. You might do better.
800-638-8440]]>
Bodily Injury and Property Damage Liability: $50,000 each person, $500,000 Property Damage, $500,000 each accident.
Aircraft Damage Liability: $20,000 each non-owned aircraft.
Total cost: $292.00 per year.
I thought that was very reasonable, but shop around. You might do better.
800-638-8440]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-12-05T12:27:41-05:00 2018-12-05T12:27:41-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=54134#p54134
As for liability, that is a personal question, and your risk tolerance, assets, etc will determine what you are comfortable with. Just know that that no amount a liability coverage will protect against everything. If you crash an airplane into a school full of children and catch a bunch of them on fire, it's unlikely a $10M policy will protect you completely from those lawsuits.]]>

As for liability, that is a personal question, and your risk tolerance, assets, etc will determine what you are comfortable with. Just know that that no amount a liability coverage will protect against everything. If you crash an airplane into a school full of children and catch a bunch of them on fire, it's unlikely a $10M policy will protect you completely from those lawsuits.]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by drseti]]> 2018-12-05T12:37:14-05:00 2018-12-05T12:37:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=54135#p54135
MrMorden wrote:The guidance I always received on this, was that you need enough hull coverage to cover the school's deductible


Although that amount of coverage will satisfy your immediate obligation following a covered loss, it may be insufficient for what often happens downstream. The flight school's hull coverage will pay off the damage (less, of course, the deductible, which your policy will cover). Subsequently, there is nothing to stop your flight school's insurance carrier from attempting to subrogate against you to recover their losses. This is why I recommend students carry hull insurance at half the value of the aircraft. Most I insurance carriers will try to recover their full losses, and then compromise at splitting the costs 50-50 with the renter's insurance company.

Remember that an insurance adjuster's job is to attempt to deny claims. ;)]]>
MrMorden wrote:The guidance I always received on this, was that you need enough hull coverage to cover the school's deductible


Although that amount of coverage will satisfy your immediate obligation following a covered loss, it may be insufficient for what often happens downstream. The flight school's hull coverage will pay off the damage (less, of course, the deductible, which your policy will cover). Subsequently, there is nothing to stop your flight school's insurance carrier from attempting to subrogate against you to recover their losses. This is why I recommend students carry hull insurance at half the value of the aircraft. Most I insurance carriers will try to recover their full losses, and then compromise at splitting the costs 50-50 with the renter's insurance company.

Remember that an insurance adjuster's job is to attempt to deny claims. ;)]]>
<![CDATA[Ask The Insurance Agent :: Re: PPL Student - Should I carry liability coverage for my training? :: Reply by Type47]]> 2018-12-05T19:33:05-05:00 2018-12-05T19:33:05-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5230&p=54141#p54141
Remember that an insurance adjuster's job is to attempt to deny claims. ;)


Actually, the insurance adjuster’s job is to make sure that the insured receives everything they are entitled to according to their policy.
Now, I agree that poor adjusters just try to deny claims.
I also suspect that there may be more poor adjusters than good ones.]]>
Remember that an insurance adjuster's job is to attempt to deny claims. ;)


Actually, the insurance adjuster’s job is to make sure that the insured receives everything they are entitled to according to their policy.
Now, I agree that poor adjusters just try to deny claims.
I also suspect that there may be more poor adjusters than good ones.]]>
<![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Asking for Your Help :: Author HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-11-26T18:23:10-05:00 2018-11-26T18:23:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=53976#p53976 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-11-26T20:47:40-05:00 2018-11-26T20:47:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=53978#p53978
https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?omni=Home-N-Number&nNumberTxt=9791E

According to Flight Aware, N9791E flew as recently as October 6, 2018, so it's apparently still actively flying.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9791E]]>

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?omni=Home-N-Number&nNumberTxt=9791E

According to Flight Aware, N9791E flew as recently as October 6, 2018, so it's apparently still actively flying.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9791E]]>
<![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-11T11:46:38-05:00 2018-12-11T11:46:38-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54188#p54188 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-11T23:54:35-05:00 2018-12-11T23:54:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54217#p54217 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-12T18:18:14-05:00 2018-12-12T18:18:14-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54225#p54225
smutny wrote:If you're on Facebook, try inquiring in the Flights Above the Pacific Northwest (FATPNW) group. If you're not on FB, let me know and I can make the inquiry for you.

Thanks, John. I did that. NADA. No response, just 2 "likes" whatever that's supposed to mean. But, it was worth a try. Funny thing is, if the club has a financial issue regarding the "club" plane, I am in a position to help, as part or even full owner. My conjecturing tells me this is likely the problem, as the original owner passed away about a year ago and may have willed the 1946 Aeronca Chief to the club. So how do they pay for maintenance, insurance, fuel and storage? I posted this request here, on the chance that a current "member" might be a lurker and willing to respond.]]>
smutny wrote:If you're on Facebook, try inquiring in the Flights Above the Pacific Northwest (FATPNW) group. If you're not on FB, let me know and I can make the inquiry for you.

Thanks, John. I did that. NADA. No response, just 2 "likes" whatever that's supposed to mean. But, it was worth a try. Funny thing is, if the club has a financial issue regarding the "club" plane, I am in a position to help, as part or even full owner. My conjecturing tells me this is likely the problem, as the original owner passed away about a year ago and may have willed the 1946 Aeronca Chief to the club. So how do they pay for maintenance, insurance, fuel and storage? I posted this request here, on the chance that a current "member" might be a lurker and willing to respond.]]>
<![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-12T18:52:01-05:00 2018-12-12T18:52:01-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54227#p54227 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-12T21:28:54-05:00 2018-12-12T21:28:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54228#p54228
TimTaylor wrote:Did you try calling the FBO and see if they can put you in touch with the owner. Someone must be paying the monthly tiedown fees.

Another good idea, but the FBO here is not the airport manager. If I can contact the airport manager (airport belongs to Pierce County), it might be possible to get some info on their hangar rental.]]>
TimTaylor wrote:Did you try calling the FBO and see if they can put you in touch with the owner. Someone must be paying the monthly tiedown fees.

Another good idea, but the FBO here is not the airport manager. If I can contact the airport manager (airport belongs to Pierce County), it might be possible to get some info on their hangar rental.]]>
<![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-12T21:37:24-05:00 2018-12-12T21:37:24-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54229#p54229 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-13T08:13:27-05:00 2018-12-13T08:13:27-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54230#p54230
HAPPYDAN wrote:Thanks, John. I did that. NADA.


So you did, may have been lost in all the Thanksgiving hubbub. I watch FATPNW pretty closely and I missed it too.

Looking at the Department of Revenue site, I find three names associated with the club, which is still listed as active.

Bruce Farrington
There are two Bruce’s in Gig Harbor:
Bruce R Farrington 253-265-2571
Bruce A Farrington 360-315-6741, 253-857-3047

Mitch Lund
A phone number didn’t pop up for Mitch.

Gary Nelson
I think this is who you’re referring to as who passed away last year.]]>
HAPPYDAN wrote:Thanks, John. I did that. NADA.


So you did, may have been lost in all the Thanksgiving hubbub. I watch FATPNW pretty closely and I missed it too.

Looking at the Department of Revenue site, I find three names associated with the club, which is still listed as active.

Bruce Farrington
There are two Bruce’s in Gig Harbor:
Bruce R Farrington 253-265-2571
Bruce A Farrington 360-315-6741, 253-857-3047

Mitch Lund
A phone number didn’t pop up for Mitch.

Gary Nelson
I think this is who you’re referring to as who passed away last year.]]>
<![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by Scooper]]> 2018-12-13T09:55:03-05:00 2018-12-13T09:55:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54231#p54231
HAPPYDAN wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Did you try calling the FBO and see if they can put you in touch with the owner. Someone must be paying the monthly tiedown fees.

Another good idea, but the FBO here is not the airport manager. If I can contact the airport manager (airport belongs to Pierce County), it might be possible to get some info on their hangar rental.


AirNav lists the "acting airport manager" as Lorene Behm, Phone: 253-798-7109.

Airport Ownership and Management from official FAA records
Ownership: Publicly-owned
Owner: PIERCE COUNTY PUB WORKS & UTILITIES
AIRPORT AND FERRY DIVISION, 2702 S. 42ND STREET, SUITE 201
TACOMA, WA 98409-7322
Phone 253-798-7109
Manager: ACTING MGR LORENE BEHM
AIRPORT AND FERRY DIVISION, 2702 S. 42ND STREET, SUITE 201
TACOMA, WA 98409-7322
Phone 253-798-7109]]>
HAPPYDAN wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:Did you try calling the FBO and see if they can put you in touch with the owner. Someone must be paying the monthly tiedown fees.

Another good idea, but the FBO here is not the airport manager. If I can contact the airport manager (airport belongs to Pierce County), it might be possible to get some info on their hangar rental.


AirNav lists the "acting airport manager" as Lorene Behm, Phone: 253-798-7109.

Airport Ownership and Management from official FAA records
Ownership: Publicly-owned
Owner: PIERCE COUNTY PUB WORKS & UTILITIES
AIRPORT AND FERRY DIVISION, 2702 S. 42ND STREET, SUITE 201
TACOMA, WA 98409-7322
Phone 253-798-7109
Manager: ACTING MGR LORENE BEHM
AIRPORT AND FERRY DIVISION, 2702 S. 42ND STREET, SUITE 201
TACOMA, WA 98409-7322
Phone 253-798-7109]]>
<![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-12-13T11:58:02-05:00 2018-12-13T11:58:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54232#p54232 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-13T18:57:02-05:00 2018-12-13T18:57:02-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54241#p54241 <![CDATA[Flying Clubs :: Re: Asking for Your Help :: Reply by smutny]]> 2018-12-14T09:31:09-05:00 2018-12-14T09:31:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5229&p=54244#p54244 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Author drdehave]]> 2018-11-29T12:12:42-05:00 2018-11-29T12:12:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54011#p54011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZbYbPqvj4&t=69s]]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZbYbPqvj4&t=69s]]> <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-29T12:37:57-05:00 2018-11-29T12:37:57-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54012#p54012 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by Jim Hardin]]> 2018-11-30T10:29:06-05:00 2018-11-30T10:29:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54033#p54033
How many audio tracks were in that one? I do editing so I am curious.]]>

How many audio tracks were in that one? I do editing so I am curious.]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by drdehave]]> 2018-11-30T10:33:12-05:00 2018-11-30T10:33:12-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54034#p54034
Yes, there were five audio tracks used. Titles/credits for them appear in the video description--just click the "show more" button.

Rich]]>

Yes, there were five audio tracks used. Titles/credits for them appear in the video description--just click the "show more" button.

Rich]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T12:24:54-05:00 2018-11-30T12:24:54-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54040#p54040 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by drdehave]]> 2018-11-30T13:26:09-05:00 2018-11-30T13:26:09-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54048#p54048 Rich, what would you do if your airplane would not fire up after shut-down in the middle of no where?

The probability of that occurring is tiny, so I don't worry about it (that doesn't mean I don't mitigate for the possibility, though). I would just accept getting stuck out there as another challenge. In this particular instance, I had several options requiring that I first (i.e., if I couldn't figure out and fix the trouble with the parts and tools I carry) get back to the tiny town of Gerlach, where my cell phone would work. Then, I would want to either (a) get my mechanic out there, or (b) take the wings off the plane and haul it back home on a trailer for repair. And if I was unable to flag somebody down out there on the playa after 2 or 3 days--to get me to town--I would very likely just set off the Personal Locator Beacon, and wait for emergency help to arrive--and then figure it out. I always carry enough food, water and clothing in the luggage compartments to survive a few days, without too much hardship.]]>
Rich, what would you do if your airplane would not fire up after shut-down in the middle of no where?

The probability of that occurring is tiny, so I don't worry about it (that doesn't mean I don't mitigate for the possibility, though). I would just accept getting stuck out there as another challenge. In this particular instance, I had several options requiring that I first (i.e., if I couldn't figure out and fix the trouble with the parts and tools I carry) get back to the tiny town of Gerlach, where my cell phone would work. Then, I would want to either (a) get my mechanic out there, or (b) take the wings off the plane and haul it back home on a trailer for repair. And if I was unable to flag somebody down out there on the playa after 2 or 3 days--to get me to town--I would very likely just set off the Personal Locator Beacon, and wait for emergency help to arrive--and then figure it out. I always carry enough food, water and clothing in the luggage compartments to survive a few days, without too much hardship.]]>
<![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-30T13:37:03-05:00 2018-11-30T13:37:03-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54049#p54049 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by drdehave]]> 2018-11-30T13:44:51-05:00 2018-11-30T13:44:51-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54050#p54050 <![CDATA[Eye Candy :: Re: Having More Fun in Nevada Badlands... :: Reply by HAPPYDAN]]> 2018-12-02T21:17:55-05:00 2018-12-02T21:17:55-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5234&p=54076#p54076 https://www.diblasi.com/]]> https://www.diblasi.com/]]> <![CDATA[The Want Ads :: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Author dstclair]]> 2018-11-24T16:06:23-05:00 2018-11-24T16:06:23-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53960#p53960
CoverGirl.JPG

Airframe
565 Hours Total Time
Always Hangared
Engine
Rotax 912-ULS
565 Hours since New
Prop Specs
DUC Swirl Prop
195 Hours since New
Avionics/Radios
Dynon D100/D120 Dual Glass Panels
Dynon Two Axis Autopilot
Garmin Aera 795 GPS
Garmin GDL 39 ADS-B In (795 hardwire + tablet Bluetooth)
Garmin GDL-82 ADS-B Out (Anonymous mode switch)
Garmin SL-40 Comm
Garmin GTX 327 Transponder
PS Engineering PM1000II Intercom
Zaon PCAS MRX
Other
GRS Chute Repack Complete 7/2018 (9 year repack cycle)
Travel Cover and Prop Cover
Alternate Static Port
Heated Pitot
Complete Logbooks
One owner since new
Cruises at ~120 KTAS
Maintained by SportAir USA (TL-Ultralight US Distributor)
Free 5 hr transition training provided by SportAir USA
50 hr Warranty available

More Pics: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l8G2f ... dBvXFuZ6FR

Contact Dave St.Clair for more info: 469-831-4499 or dave@halohopper.net

Attachments



CoverGirl.JPG (40.44 KiB)


]]>
CoverGirl.JPG

Airframe
565 Hours Total Time
Always Hangared
Engine
Rotax 912-ULS
565 Hours since New
Prop Specs
DUC Swirl Prop
195 Hours since New
Avionics/Radios
Dynon D100/D120 Dual Glass Panels
Dynon Two Axis Autopilot
Garmin Aera 795 GPS
Garmin GDL 39 ADS-B In (795 hardwire + tablet Bluetooth)
Garmin GDL-82 ADS-B Out (Anonymous mode switch)
Garmin SL-40 Comm
Garmin GTX 327 Transponder
PS Engineering PM1000II Intercom
Zaon PCAS MRX
Other
GRS Chute Repack Complete 7/2018 (9 year repack cycle)
Travel Cover and Prop Cover
Alternate Static Port
Heated Pitot
Complete Logbooks
One owner since new
Cruises at ~120 KTAS
Maintained by SportAir USA (TL-Ultralight US Distributor)
Free 5 hr transition training provided by SportAir USA
50 hr Warranty available

More Pics: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l8G2f ... dBvXFuZ6FR

Contact Dave St.Clair for more info: 469-831-4499 or dave@halohopper.net

Attachments



CoverGirl.JPG (40.44 KiB)


]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-24T16:43:11-05:00 2018-11-24T16:43:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53961#p53961 <![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by TimTaylor]]> 2018-11-24T17:10:42-05:00 2018-11-24T17:10:42-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53962#p53962 <![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-11-24T22:17:53-05:00 2018-11-24T22:17:53-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53963#p53963
We're spending a lot more time at our second home and given the distance, we typically have 2 weather patterns to navigate through. This equates to the need for an IMC capable plane and we'd also like to do the 500nm in a bladder-friendly single leg of ~3 hrs. My wife is adamant on a chute so this means I'll be in the market for a Cirrus after some lucky person buys my pampered Sting.]]>

We're spending a lot more time at our second home and given the distance, we typically have 2 weather patterns to navigate through. This equates to the need for an IMC capable plane and we'd also like to do the 500nm in a bladder-friendly single leg of ~3 hrs. My wife is adamant on a chute so this means I'll be in the market for a Cirrus after some lucky person buys my pampered Sting.]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by chicagorandy]]> 2018-11-25T01:18:10-05:00 2018-11-25T01:18:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53964#p53964 <![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by MrMorden]]> 2018-11-26T09:53:10-05:00 2018-11-26T09:53:10-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53969#p53969
Your airplane is going to make somebody very happy.]]>

Your airplane is going to make somebody very happy.]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-11-26T10:22:26-05:00 2018-11-26T10:22:26-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53970#p53970
MrMorden wrote:Off topic, but how do you like the GDL-82? Looking at one for my CT...hard to beat the ease of install.

Simple install, worked right off the bat. The most difficult part, which was simple, was putting in a toggle switch for 'anonymous mode'. I've asked for verification of the performance off the FAA website three or four times and have 'passed' each time.]]>
MrMorden wrote:Off topic, but how do you like the GDL-82? Looking at one for my CT...hard to beat the ease of install.

Simple install, worked right off the bat. The most difficult part, which was simple, was putting in a toggle switch for 'anonymous mode'. I've asked for verification of the performance off the FAA website three or four times and have 'passed' each time.]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by JJay]]> 2018-11-28T16:47:40-05:00 2018-11-28T16:47:40-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53991#p53991
dstclair wrote:
MrMorden wrote:Off topic, but how do you like the GDL-82? Looking at one for my CT...hard to beat the ease of install.

Simple install, worked right off the bat. The most difficult part, which was simple, was putting in a toggle switch for 'anonymous mode'. I've asked for verification of the performance off the FAA website three or four times and have 'passed' each time.


Dave - who installed your GDL-82? I'm getting so much conflicting information from avionics installers in my area that I'm going nuts. Was an LOA required? Are there drawings for installation in a Sting?

BTW - beautiful plane. If I didn't already have mine, I'd be all over yours.]]>
dstclair wrote:
MrMorden wrote:Off topic, but how do you like the GDL-82? Looking at one for my CT...hard to beat the ease of install.

Simple install, worked right off the bat. The most difficult part, which was simple, was putting in a toggle switch for 'anonymous mode'. I've asked for verification of the performance off the FAA website three or four times and have 'passed' each time.


Dave - who installed your GDL-82? I'm getting so much conflicting information from avionics installers in my area that I'm going nuts. Was an LOA required? Are there drawings for installation in a Sting?

BTW - beautiful plane. If I didn't already have mine, I'd be all over yours.]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-11-28T17:53:35-05:00 2018-11-28T17:53:35-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53992#p53992 <![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by ShawnM]]> 2018-11-28T18:21:06-05:00 2018-11-28T18:21:06-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=53993#p53993
JJay wrote:Dave - who installed your GDL-82? I'm getting so much conflicting information from avionics installers in my area that I'm going nuts. Was an LOA required? Are there drawings for installation in a Sting?

BTW - beautiful plane. If I didn't already have mine, I'd be all over yours.


JJay, contact Jesse Saint over in Dunnellon (X35) and talk with him. He's just west of Ocala. Did you pick your plane up from Eugene in Dunnellon or Williston? I can't remember. The company is Saint Aviation and his contact info is here:

https://www.saintaviation.com/contact.htm

If you fly over he can take care of it with no issues, no hassles and for a very reasonable rate. Great guy and very knowledgeable. I also have the GDL-82 and it's awesome and works flawlessly. You won't be disappointed at all.

I'll see Jesse tomorrow and will discuss it with him.

Shawn

PS- sorry to get off topic here. PM me if you want to.]]>
JJay wrote:Dave - who installed your GDL-82? I'm getting so much conflicting information from avionics installers in my area that I'm going nuts. Was an LOA required? Are there drawings for installation in a Sting?

BTW - beautiful plane. If I didn't already have mine, I'd be all over yours.


JJay, contact Jesse Saint over in Dunnellon (X35) and talk with him. He's just west of Ocala. Did you pick your plane up from Eugene in Dunnellon or Williston? I can't remember. The company is Saint Aviation and his contact info is here:

https://www.saintaviation.com/contact.htm

If you fly over he can take care of it with no issues, no hassles and for a very reasonable rate. Great guy and very knowledgeable. I also have the GDL-82 and it's awesome and works flawlessly. You won't be disappointed at all.

I'll see Jesse tomorrow and will discuss it with him.

Shawn

PS- sorry to get off topic here. PM me if you want to.]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by Wm.Ince]]> 2018-11-30T09:40:13-05:00 2018-11-30T09:40:13-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=54032#p54032
ShawnM wrote:. . . . contact Jesse Saint over in Dunnellon (X35) and talk with him. . . . The company is Saint Aviation and his contact info is here:

https://www.saintaviation.com/contact.htm

If you fly over he can take care of it with no issues, no hassles and for a very reasonable rate. Great guy and very knowledgeable. I also have the GDL-82 and it's awesome and works flawlessly.

I wholeheartedly endorse Jesse Saint. He has done work for me on multiple occasions and is very competant, resonable, and more importantly, honest. I plan on having Jesse install the GDL-82 on my CTSW this coming Spring.]]>
ShawnM wrote:. . . . contact Jesse Saint over in Dunnellon (X35) and talk with him. . . . The company is Saint Aviation and his contact info is here:

https://www.saintaviation.com/contact.htm

If you fly over he can take care of it with no issues, no hassles and for a very reasonable rate. Great guy and very knowledgeable. I also have the GDL-82 and it's awesome and works flawlessly.

I wholeheartedly endorse Jesse Saint. He has done work for me on multiple occasions and is very competant, resonable, and more importantly, honest. I plan on having Jesse install the GDL-82 on my CTSW this coming Spring.]]>
<![CDATA[The Want Ads :: Re: 2008 Sting S3 for Sale :: Reply by dstclair]]> 2018-12-02T18:35:11-05:00 2018-12-02T18:35:11-05:00 http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5228&p=54075#p54075

FYI -- I'll be listing my Sting with a Broker around the first of year so if you'r seriously in the market for a 127 KTAS Sting (did a square speed test today at 4500' and ~5400 rpm) now is the time to save $$$. I'll gladly chop the broker fee and you'll also likely save on sales/use tax (up to 8% in some states) since many states exempt 'occasional' sales from non-brokers (contact your tax accountant to make sure). Call me and let's talk!

dstclair wrote:My mission has changed so I will need to part with my 2008 Sting S3. Simply search the site for my posts and you'll get a complete history of my Sting. Lot's of upgrades. Tons of fun over the last 11 years.
CoverGirl.JPG
Airframe
565 Hours Total Time
Always Hangared
Engine
Rotax 912-ULS
565 Hours since New
Prop Specs
DUC Swirl Prop
195 Hours since New
Avionics/Radios
Dynon D100/D120 Dual Glass Panels
Dynon Two Axis Autopilot
Garmin Aera 795 GPS
Garmin GDL 39 ADS-B In (795 hardwire + tablet Bluetooth)
Garmin GDL-82 ADS-B Out (Anonymous mode switch)
Garmin SL-40 Comm
Garmin GTX 327 Transponder
PS Engineering PM1000II Intercom
Zaon PCAS MRX
Other
GRS Chute Repack Complete 7/2018 (9 year repack cycle)
Travel Cover and Prop Cover
Alternate Static Port
Heated Pitot
Complete Logbooks
One owner since new
Cruises at ~120 KTAS
Maintained by SportAir USA (TL-Ultralight US Distributor)
Free 5 hr transition training provided by SportAir USA
50 hr Warranty available

More Pics: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l8G2f ... dBvXFuZ6FR

Contact Dave St.Clair for more info: 469-831-4499 or dave@halohopper.net
]]>


FYI -- I'll be listing my Sting with a Broker around the first of year so if you'r seriously in the market for a 127 KTAS Sting (did a square speed test today at 4500' and ~5400 rpm) now is the time to save $$$. I'll gladly chop the broker fee and you'll also likely save on sales/use tax (up to 8% in some states) since many states exempt 'occasional' sales from non-brokers (contact your tax accountant to make sure). Call me and let's talk!

dstclair wrote:My mission has changed so I will need to part with my 2008 Sting S3. Simply search the site for my posts and you'll get a complete history of my Sting. Lot's of upgrades. Tons of fun over the last 11 years.
CoverGirl.JPG
Airframe
565 Hours Total Time
Always Hangared
Engine
Rotax 912-ULS
565 Hours since New
Prop Specs
DUC Swirl Prop
195 Hours since New
Avionics/Radios
Dynon D100/D120 Dual Glass Panels
Dynon Two Axis Autopilot
Garmin Aera 795 GPS
Garmin GDL 39 ADS-B In (795 hardwire + tablet Bluetooth)
Garmin GDL-82 ADS-B Out (Anonymous mode switch)
Garmin SL-40 Comm
Garmin GTX 327 Transponder
PS Engineering PM1000II Intercom
Zaon PCAS MRX
Other
GRS Chute Repack Complete 7/2018 (9 year repack cycle)
Travel Cover and Prop Cover
Alternate Static Port
Heated Pitot
Complete Logbooks
One owner since new
Cruises at ~120 KTAS
Maintained by SportAir USA (TL-Ultralight US Distributor)
Free 5 hr transition training provided by SportAir USA
50 hr Warranty available

More Pics: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1l8G2f ... dBvXFuZ6FR

Contact Dave St.Clair for more info: 469-831-4499 or dave@halohopper.net
]]>